Group 3: SPC: worker and employer representatives (Amendments 14, 15, 19, 20, 22, 39, 40, 42)

– in the Senedd at 5:43 pm on 7 March 2023.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:43, 7 March 2023

(Translated)

We move now to group 3. The third group of amendments relates to the social partnership council's worker and employer representatives. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 14. I call on Joel James to move the lead amendment. Joel James.

(Translated)

Amendment 14 (Joel James) moved.

Photo of Joel James Joel James Conservative 5:43, 7 March 2023

Thank you, Llywydd, and I will speak to my amendments. The majority of active enterprises in Wales are small and medium-sized enterprises, which account for around 99 per cent of all total enterprises and for 62 per cent of all employment and 38 per cent of all turnover. The SME business community does not organise itself in the same way as Government or trade unions in terms of presenting a unified voice, and there's a high degree of variance between the needs of these businesses and the needs of their employees. I find the idea absurd that they will not have a direct voice on the SPC, where nine members will be from the Government and nine members from trade unions, who only represent around 30 per cent of employees in Wales, most of whom are from the public sector. The Deputy Minister responded to my previous proposed amendments regarding increasing the number of employer representatives to ensure that small, medium and large businesses have a voice at the table, by saying that the SPC is designed to be a tripartite and increasing employer representatives who would secure this. My proposed amendments today would resolve that issue by increasing the number of trade union and employer representatives to 12. This allows for equal trade union representative from TUC-affiliated and non-TUC-affiliated bodies. And there's also capacity to adopt three representatives from small, medium and large businesses onto the council, without the council being skewed. These amendments also support my amendments, and those of Peredur in group 4, which ensure that half of worker representatives are not affiliated with the TUC.

Growing SME businesses has the considerable positive impact of employment creation, innovation, productivity growth and competitiveness, and we need to ensure that Government understands the pressures that these businesses face. SMEs in particular have unique challenges, which will vary from region to region and sector to sector, and they're exposed to the volatility of markets in a way that larger businesses and the public sector are not. Having up-to-date advice from the SME sector will be invaluable to the Government in its planning for fair work in supply chains, and having direct business contact will ensure that the largest group of employers in Wales will have a voice. You have said, Deputy Minister, that the purpose of the council is to provide information and advice to the Welsh Ministers on relevant matters, to reach consensus on issues of mutual interest, and to provide us with the advice to better inform policy development and support implementation. Well, what is more relevant than direct advice from the largest group of employers in Wales? Thank you, Llywydd.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:46, 7 March 2023

(Translated)

The Deputy Minister to contribute. Hannah Blythyn.

Photo of Hannah Blythyn Hannah Blythyn Labour

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm not convinced by the arguments Joel James has put forward for increasing the number of employers and worker representatives on the council. There is no discernible benefit from increasing the number of employers' and workers' representatives from nine to 12, and the Bill already provides for all relevant sectors and interests to be represented. As far as amendment 22 is concerned, we believe that ensuring businesses of all sizes are represented on the council is a matter that employer representatives will, without any legal requirement from us, give careful consideration to when making their nominations. And of course, we will work with the sector to ensure that this is the case in practice. The Government will not be supporting these amendments. Diolch.

Photo of Joel James Joel James Conservative

Thank you, Llywydd. And again, I really do not understand the rationale behind this Government's thinking. You want a Bill that improves the well-being of people across Wales, for the purpose of improving economic, environmental, social and cultural well-being, yet you do not want to hear directly from any of the businesses or their employees about relevant matters. I really do think that you exclude businesses at your peril, because, ultimately, these are the ones that you will most want to voluntarily adopt your well-being goals, and the more you push them away, the less likely it will be for you to understand the barriers they face to adopting those goals. That's it, Llywydd. Thank you.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:48, 7 March 2023

(Translated)

The question is that amendment 14 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, therefore we'll proceed to a vote on amendment 14. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 41 against. Amendment 14 is not agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment 14: For: 15, Against: 41, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Division number 4302 Amendment 14

Aye: 15 MSs

No: 41 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 4 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Joel James, is it being moved?

(Translated)

Amendment 15 (Joel James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Yes, it's being moved. So, the question is that amendment 15 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, therefore we'll proceed to a vote on amendment 15. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 41 against. Amendment 15 is not agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment 15: For: 15, Against: 41, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Division number 4303 Amendment 15

Aye: 15 MSs

No: 41 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 4 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Joel James, is it being moved?

(Translated)

Amendment 16 (Joel James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Yes, it's being moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

The question is that amendment 16 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, therefore we'll proceed to a vote on amendment 16. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 41 against. Amendment 16 is not agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment 16: For: 15, Against: 41, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Division number 4304 Amendment 16

Aye: 15 MSs

No: 41 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 4 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Joel James, is it being moved?

(Translated)

Amendment 17 (Joel James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

The question is that amendment 17 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, therefore we'll proceed to a vote on amendment 17. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 41 against. Amendment 17 is not agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 17: For: 15, Against: 41, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Division number 4305 Amendment 17

Aye: 15 MSs

No: 41 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 4 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Joel James, is it being moved?

(Translated)

Amendment 18 (Joel James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

The question is that amendment 18 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, therefore we'll proceed to a vote on amendment 18. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 41 against. Therefore, amendment 18 is not agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 18: For: 15, Against: 41, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Division number 4306 Amendment 18

Aye: 15 MSs

No: 41 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 4 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Joel James, is it being moved? 

(Translated)

Amendment 19 (Joel James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

The question is that amendment 19 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. We'll proceed to a vote therefore on amendment 19. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 41 against. Therefore, amendment 19 is not agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 19: For: 15, Against: 41, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Division number 4307 Amendment 19

Aye: 15 MSs

No: 41 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 4 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Joel James, is it being moved? 

(Translated)

Amendment 20 (Joel James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Yes, it's being moved. Therefore, the question is that amendment 20 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, therefore we'll proceed to a vote on amendment 20. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 41 against. Therefore, amendment 20 is not agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 20: For: 15, Against: 41, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Division number 4308 Amendment 20

Aye: 15 MSs

No: 41 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 4 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:52, 7 March 2023

(Translated)

Amendment 21, Joel James. 

(Translated)

Amendment 21 (Joel James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

The question is that amendment 21 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, therefore we'll proceed to a vote on amendment 21. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 41 against. Therefore, amendment 21 is not agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 21: For: 15, Against: 41, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Division number 4309 Amendment 21

Aye: 15 MSs

No: 41 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 4 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Joel James, is it being moved?

(Translated)

Amendment 22 (Joel James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Yes, amendment 22 is moved. The question is that amendment 22 be agreed to. [Objection.] There is an objection and we therefore move to a vote on amendment 22. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 41 against. Therefore, amendment 22 is not agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 22: For: 15, Against: 41, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Division number 4310 Amendment 22

Aye: 15 MSs

No: 41 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 4 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Joel James, is it being moved?

(Translated)

Amendment 23 (Joel James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

The question is that amendment 23 be agreed to. Is there objection? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, therefore we will take a vote on amendment 23. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 41 against. Therefore, amendment 23 is not agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 23: For: 15, Against: 41, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Division number 4311 Amendment 23

Aye: 15 MSs

No: 41 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 4 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:54, 7 March 2023

(Translated)

Amendment 24, Joel James.

(Translated)

Amendment 24 (Joel James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Is there any objection to accepting amendment 24? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, therefore we will move to a vote on amendment 24. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 41 against. Therefore amendment 24 is not agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 24: For: 15, Against: 41, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Division number 4312 Amendment 24

Aye: 15 MSs

No: 41 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 4 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:55, 7 March 2023

(Translated)

Amendment 25, Joel James. 

(Translated)

Amendment 25 (Joel James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Yes. The question is that amendment 25 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore we will proceed to a vote on amendment 25. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 41 against. Therefore amendment 25 is not agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 25: For: 15, Against: 41, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Division number 4313 Amendment 25

Aye: 15 MSs

No: 41 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 4 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:55, 7 March 2023

(Translated)

Finally in this series of amendments, amendment 26, Joel James. 

(Translated)

Amendment 26 (Joel James) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

The question is that amendment 26 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore we will proceed to a vote on amendment 26. Open the vote. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

In favour 15, no abstentions, 41 against. Therefore amendment 26 is not agreed. 

(Translated)

Amendment 26: For: 15, Against: 41, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Division number 4314 Amendment 26

Aye: 15 MSs

No: 41 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 4 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name