We move now to group 2. The second group of amendments relates to the social partnership council meetings and chair. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 13. I call on Joel James to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group. Joel James.

Amendment 13 (Joel James) moved.

Thank you, Llywydd, for this opportunity to contribute, and I would like to, first of all, speak to my own amendments. The reality is that the bulk of membership on the social partnership council will made up of trade union council members, who will represent trade unions that directly fund the Labour Party. We have only ever had a Labour First Minister in Wales, and I think it's absolutely clear that having such members on an advisory council is not only to be considered a conflict of interest, but down right nepotism. Welsh Labour is in alliance with these organisations, which, in turn, fund them, and having these organisations represented on an advisory—

Sorry, Joel. I am unable to hear Joel at the moment, so, if Members could be slightly quieter, and if you can carry on with your contribution.

Thank you, Llywydd. Having them represented on an advisory council consequently creates two significant problems. Firstly, it either produces an echo chamber for the First Minister and Government Ministers, to only hear the things that they want to hear, or, secondly, it becomes an advisory council where, if the Government does not take trade union advice, the Government can be threatened with the removal of its political funding, and trade unions are more than willing to use this mechanism.

Will you take an intervention?

Trade unions are more than willing to use this mechanism, as we have seen with the Unite general secretary—

Are you taking an intervention? 

No.

—the Unite general secretary, Sharon Graham, threatening Sir Keir Starmer with a reduction in funding last July after he sacked Sam Tarry from the front bench for joining a picket line. The council, in its current form, means that the integrity of the advice and the impartiality of the First Minister will always be questioned. If the First Minister takes the advice of the council with so many representatives from Labour-supporting trade unions, then this Government will be accused of being at the beck and call of trade unions, and this is not a characteristic of a healthy Government. The SPC aims are to provide advice—

I'm afraid, Joel, I'm going to have to intervene. This is a long session. Can we please listen to Joel quietly? I understand that you may not agree with what he's saying. You may seek to intervene if you want to as well, but if Members are able to be quiet whilst Joel carries on contributing, and, if you can, if you can project higher, then—. I'm struggling to hear you at the moment as well.

Yes. I'm sorry; I've got a cold.

Yes. Thank you.

The SPC aims are to provide advice and information to Government Ministers. If you look at the tripartite social partnership councils in Europe—and I cannot account for all of them, but—large proportions of them have independent chairs who, in turn, have relevant and specialist knowledge.

In response to these proposed amendments at Stage 2, my opposition colleague Ken Skates remarked that the SPC is a Welsh Government body and that he's unaware of any

'other Executive bodies that have chairs appointed by the Senedd, so it's entirely appropriate that the First Minister, or for that matter, any other Minister or Deputy Minister within the Government should chair the council.'

However, can I remind Members here that Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson is the independent chair of Sport Wales, which is an Executive Welsh Government sponsored body, and Phil George is the independent chair of Arts Council Wales? So, there is precedent to have an independent chair on a Welsh Government executive body. I believe that the Welsh Government should be able to show that there is transparency and impartiality with regard to the SPC and they should appoint an independent chair, and this is why these amendments have been tabled. Thank you, Llywydd.

The Deputy Minister, Hannah Blythyn.

Diolch, Llywydd. I very much regret the way in which Joel James seeks to deliberately debase and undermine the purpose of the social partnership council, and we've very much been here before in this discussion.

In response to amendment 13, when we discussed this same issue during our Stage 2 deliberations, I said that it's entirely appropriate for the social partnership council, which will be an advisory body to the Welsh Government, to be chaired by a Welsh Government Minister, in this case, the First Minister. As I also said during Stage 2, it'd be highly unusual for the Senedd to have a role in appointing a chair to an advisory council such as this. So, we will not be supporting amendments 13 or 16.

Turning to amendment 38, again this is an issue we spoke about at Stage 2, and, as I said at the time, a requirement to publish social partnership council agendas two weeks ahead of each meeting would serve very little practical purpose. It would, however, be unnecessarily and unusually restrictive and would hinder the social partnership council's ability to respond in a flexible and agile way to changing circumstances. My previous position on this has not changed, so the Government will also not be supporting amendment 38. Diolch.

Joel James to respond.

Thank you, Llywydd, and I must confess I still have no idea why there's so much resistance to an independent chair for this advisory council. I really do think that the Government is missing an opportunity, because an independent chair would not only be able to scrutinise and fight for improvements, but would actually be able to spend time investigating some of the most important issues that are relevant for us. These amendments would enhance the SPC and I'm disappointed that they have not been supported. Thank you.

The question is that amendment 13 agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 13. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 41 against. And therefore amendment 13 is not agreed.

Amendment 13: For: 15, Against: 41, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected