Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Part of 3. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change – in the Senedd at 3:05 pm on 14 March 2023.

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Photo of Julie James Julie James Labour 3:05, 14 March 2023

So, Janet, we've rehearsed this a number of times, haven't we? The scale of the problem is very different in Wales, and we've approached it very differently. We identified 15 high-rise buildings with aluminium composite material cladding following Grenfell; three in the social sector and 12 in the private sector. The three social sector buildings were remediated immediately with £3 million support from the Welsh Government. The 12 private sector schemes were taken forward by the private sector. These have all either been completed or are being completed right now at developers' cost. That's through our intervention in the first place.

We're also aware, through our expression-of-interest process, of one further building above 11m in height that might have ACM cladding, and our consultants are currently undertaking additional tests to confirm whether this is the case as quickly as possible. If it is, of course, it will be put into the same process for remediation. So, we acted very swiftly on the cladding.

However, I've also been very clear that cladding isn't the only issue, and I know you're aware of that. So, unfortunately, a large number of these buildings have a large number of different problems, and each building has a different set of those problems. So, you can't do a one size fits all; each building has a different set of issues. Some of them have compartmentation problems, some of them have stuff-that-holds-the-cladding-on problems, some of them have firebreak problems. There's a whole myriad of different problems. So, as I've said a number of times before—I'm very happy to repeat it—we're in the process of having the inspections done. They're nearly completed; there are only a few left to go. The ones that are left to go are either because we've had a problem with the managing agent getting permission from the freeholder to do the invasive survey, or, in a couple of instances, we've had problems because we've had to shut a major traffic thoroughfare in order to get access to the building, and, obviously, that takes some time to put the traffic orders and so on in place. But, other than that, they're largely there.

I will be making an announcement about the so-called orphan buildings shortly. We have a plan to deal with those. I won't pre-announce that, but I'm hoping to be able to make that announcement very soon now, where we can start the remediation for those buildings, which, just to explain the phrase, are buildings where everyone who ought to do the work has either gone bankrupt or can't be found, or, for very complex reasons, there isn't someone that we can hold responsible for that.

In addition, we have 11 developers who've signed our pact, and we expect them to sign our legal documentation imminently. There are one or two who haven't signed the pact and come forward. I've been extremely clear with those that we will be taking draconic action against them. We will move the same way as England exactly to stop them taking beneficial use of a planning consent that they may have and to debar them from doing any work in the public sector, which will, effectively, mean they can't work unless they remediate the buildings they're responsible for.

The last piece of this, and this is—. My heart goes out to these people, but we have got a scheme that buys out the flat for somebody who is in a really difficult situation. A number of people have written to me saying that they're in that situation, so we've encouraged them to go through that process. We have a number of those going through now, and we really want to be sympathetic to people who want to move on with their lives. We've also been working really hard with insurance companies and with lenders to make sure that the ES1W—I always get that the wrong way round—forms don't mean that people can't sell. So, an enormous amount of work has gone on in this sector.

But it is different here in Wales, because of the different scale and the market is a different scale, so we don't have some of the levers that the UK Government has. Also, we've just taken a slightly different approach. So, I don't believe that the leaseholders themselves should have to take legal action, and I know they want me to implement the provisions that allow them to, but legal action is not some sort of panacea. Just because you're taking legal action doesn't mean you have a sudden and effective resolution, and there are buildings just local to here that are in a litigation situation, and it's quite clear that it isn't an effective solution.

Our documentation is set up slightly differently. When the developers sign the documentation with us, it's the Welsh Government that would take them to court. We will bear the legal risk and responsibility for that. I think that's right, because I don't think the leaseholders should bear the lottery, a little bit, of litigation, or the legal costs that go with it. So, I make no apology for having done it differently here in Wales. I absolutely appreciate the frustration of the people involved, but in the end I do think that our system will work for them. And the last piece is, of course, we've always done it for buildings over 11m, not 18m, here in Wales, and so more of them are caught in our system than would be the case if we followed the English view.