And I join, at the outset, the Counsel General and others in paying tribute to the contribution of Sir Wyn, the president of Welsh Tribunals over the last six years. And indeed, as the Counsel General has remarked, he attended our committee only a week last Monday—yes, a week ago, the Monday just gone—and we discussed with him in some detail some of the key issues arising from his report. And I concur with the comments of the Counsel General there: one of the things that is quite signal in this report and his previous work is the independence that he's brought to the role. And also I have to say that we on the committee would pay tribute to those involved in the work of the tribunals in Wales as well. His time of office is coming to an end this month and we do, indeed, wish him very well indeed, and thank him for his engagement with the committee.  

We had a discussion with Sir Wyn on the Welsh Government’s plans for reforms to the Welsh tribunals. He told us, in the way that he does, in a very intelligent and very nuanced way as well—he stressed to us, in his view, the advantages of a non-ministerial department to administer the tribunals, a point picked up by Mark and others, and Alun a moment ago, the importance of a Welsh Tribunals unit being independent from the Welsh Government and of the benefits of the creation of an appeal tribunal for Wales for those people seeking access to justice.

Now, I think I heard the Minister confirming—I think—that these options would be in there as part of the consultation, but I wonder if he could confirm that the White Paper and the consultation will indeed cover Sir Wyn's suggestions, if the Counsel General is saying he's neither ruling them in nor ruling them out at the moment, but he accepts the case for independence. I think Sir Wyn was quite nuanced in what he said. Whilst he came down firmly on the side of saying he sees the benefit of a non-ministerial department for the additional independence, he did acknowledge that there were other ways you could also do it. So, I think we'd look for the assurance that all of those options are going to be within the consultation. I note, Counsel General, that you said, in terms of the principles, the guiding principles of Welsh Government on this, that judicial independence is absolutely crucial.

I'd be grateful, as well, to hear your expectations, Counsel General, on when the legislation to reform the Welsh tribunals is likely to be introduced, and I wonder if you can commit to introducing it in this Senedd. If we acknowledge that it's important to improve people's access to justice, will we see it sooner rather than later?

During our session, we also heard Sir Wyn's assessment as to why some of the Welsh tribunals had received a substantial increase in applications recently, whilst others had seen a significant decrease. Whilst he didn't share with us his hope that these decreases did not suggest that people may not be able to access justice—there could be other reasons—we do look forward to hearing from Sir Wyn's successor on whether these figures have any danger of turning into a trend, and what steps then will be taken in response. 

Sir Wyn also told us about some of the challenges faced in appointing members of the Welsh tribunals, and he shared his very strong view that a tribunals centre, located in Wales, that could bring these people together and give that critical mass, could go quite some way to helping overcome some of these challenges. So, I'd welcome the Counsel General's thoughts on that.