14. Debate: Final Stage of the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill

– in the Senedd at 7:04 pm on 28 March 2023.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 7:04, 28 March 2023

(Translated)

Item 14 is next, which is a debate on the Final Stage of the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill. I call on the Counsel General to move this motion as well. Mick Antoniw. 

(Translated)

Motion NDM8242 Mick Antoniw

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26C.58:

Approves the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill.

(Translated)

Motion moved.

Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 7:04, 28 March 2023

(Translated)

Thank you, Llywydd. Today, after nine months of scrutiny, the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill returns to the Senedd to be considered for the final time. When I introduced the Bill, last July, I highlighted its historic importance as the first consolidation Bill as part of the Welsh Government's ambitious programme to improve the accessibility of Welsh law. The Bill brings together the main pieces of law and legislation that relate to our historic environment. The law is organised and restated in simple, everyday language. For the first time, the law is available in a fully bilingual format, but, importantly, as is required by our Standing Orders, the consolidation work has ensured that the fundamental impact of the law has not changed.

Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 7:05, 28 March 2023

In its welcome report, after detailed committee consideration, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee recommended that the Bill should proceed to the Final Stage. I want to thank the Chair of the committee, all of the committee members and the committee staff for the detailed attention they have given to this very substantial Bill. The committee's deliberations were informed by evidence from the Law Commission and from stakeholders, and I extend my thanks to all who took the time to contribute. In a number of cases, their input can be detected in provisions of the Bill. My final thanks go to the Bill team, who have worked for a number of years to bring the consolidated legislation for the Welsh historic environment to this point. Their work will continue with the development of the subordinate legislation and their engagement with stakeholders.

The Historic Environment (Wales) Bill is not only a consolidation of legislation, it is also part of a code of Welsh law. Alongside consolidation, codification gives us an important tool to create and maintain order in the Welsh law book. If passed by the Senedd, the Bill, together with the subordinate legislation needed to support it, will form a code of Welsh law on the historic environment and be published together. In codifying law for Wales, we are following the footsteps of one of Wales's earliest known legislators, Hywel Dda, who according to tradition codified the law of Wales in the mid tenth century. We are also taking Welsh law forward to a new era of order, accessibility and adaptability. The Historic Environment (Wales) Bill is only the first step forward in a wide-ranging plan to modernise and reform the law for Wales.

The legislation repeals (Wales) Bill, which repeals redundant provisions no longer of practical utility or benefit, will be introduced to the Senedd shortly. Work also continues on the modernisation and simplification of planning law, an even more significant undertaking than the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill. I trust, therefore, that the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill will meet with your approval, as will our further efforts to consolidate, codify and improve the accessibility of Welsh law. Diolch, Llywydd.

Photo of Tom Giffard Tom Giffard Conservative 7:08, 28 March 2023

It's my pleasure to speak at the Final Stage of this consolidation Bill. I want to join with the Counsel General in thanking those who've worked so hard on the Bill as it's travelled at some pace through the Senedd over the last few weeks. In particular, I want to thank the LJC committee for their work on the consolidation Bill. Second, it may surprise the Chamber that we as Welsh Conservatives will be happy to support this Bill today as well. Although we were disappointed that our previous amendments were not supported, we are grateful that the Counsel General was willing to listen and consider a range of views.

A number of the amendments concerned shipwrecks, and I'd like to reassure the Chamber they were not wrecking amendments, but amendments on wrecks. I welcome the fact that the Counsel General is open to suggestions on protecting the historic marine environment and that he'll be conducting a review in this area, but I'd like to assure him we'll keep a close eye on how he conducts the review and his adherence to the timetable he set out to the committee of the end of 2024. I'm looking forward to assessing what the Welsh Government comes up with in terms of a historic marine environment Bill and the future protections for shipwrecks. However, until we see that Bill, we'll reserve judgment.

It's my pleasure to support today's Bill on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives, upon which we'll continue to be a critical friend. Thank you.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 7:09, 28 March 2023

I've done it again, and forgotten the Chair of the constitution committee. I wonder why. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Photo of Huw Irranca-Davies Huw Irranca-Davies Labour

Diolch, Llywydd. It's because I'm not in the Chamber waving my arms at you. I think that's why it is. I've only got a few brief comments, but I do welcome the opportunity to say a few brief remarks this evening, as we conclude our consideration of the very first Welsh consolidation Bill. At the close of a late Tuesday evening in the Senedd, this Final Stage debate on the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill is itself an historic legislative moment.

The consolidation Bill scrutiny process is very different to what Members will be most familiar with when it comes to Bill scrutiny here in the Senedd. One main difference is that following detailed committee consideration of the Bill, which involves the consideration and disposal of amendments, just like Stage 2 for normal public Bills, my committee had to report to the Senedd and recommend whether the Bill should have a further amending stage in this Chamber, or whether it should proceed to Final Stage. That's the difference with a consolidation Bill. We recommended that the Bill should be able to come straight to Final Stage. 

Our report also sets out two matters that we considered before making this recommendation. Firstly, during our initial consideration of the Bill, we drew to the Counsel General's attention a number of issues with the Bill, and we do believe that these issues have been addressed by the Counsel General during our detailed committee consideration. Secondly, during the detailed consideration, my fellow committee Member James Evans tabled amendments, which have just been referred to, relating to the protection of sites of historic wrecks—though not a wrecking amendment, as we've just been told. These amendments were not agreed, but as a committee we are content with the subsequent information provided by the Counsel General about how the Welsh Government will indeed take forward plans to review all the legislation relating to the protection of sites of historic wrecks and anticipated time frames for undertaking such work.

When I spoke during the initial considerations back in January, I said on behalf of the committee that—[Inaudible.]

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 7:11, 28 March 2023

I'm afraid we are losing the connection with you, Huw Irranca-Davies. Unless it can be restored very suddenly, I'm going to move on. I'm sure that most of the points you were about to make are a matter of record in your report as a committee. I'm going to ask the Counsel General, therefore, if he has any comments to make to sum up the debate. 

Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 7:12, 28 March 2023

I just have a few closing comments. The points made with regard to the marine environment are valid ones. I think the problem was that with the marine environment, there are many aspects to it. It's not just about shipwrecks; it ranges from submerged prehistoric landscapes to the evidence of modern industrial and military activity. There are certain areas that are potentially reserved. To review the whole of it and to do it properly is quite a considerable undertaking. It is one that needs to be undertaken, it is an area that needs to be consolidated, and it is an area where there will be a review to assess what is required in order to undertake that particular process. So, it's not something forgotten. I'd also remind Members that, of course, consolidation and codification is not a race; it is a long-term process in respect of some of the areas of law. I've mentioned the statute law (repeals) Bill, but also the planning Bill, and no doubt there will be others in due course.

I'm pleased to move the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill. If you pass the legislation today, owners of scheduled monuments or listed buildings in any corner of Wales will, for the first time, be able to find the legislation that they need in one place, in Welsh or English, and in a language that is clear and easy to understand. This will transform the protection and management of the Welsh historic environment. I urge you to support this legislation. Diolch, Llywydd.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 7:14, 28 March 2023

(Translated)

Thank you, Counsel General. In accordance with Standing Order 26.50C, a recorded vote must be taken on Final Stage motions, so I defer voting on this item also until voting time.

(Translated)

Voting deferred until voting time.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 7:14, 28 March 2023

(Translated)

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move immediately to our first vote.