Item 8 is next, a debate on a Member's legislative proposal, a Wales tourism Bill, and I call on Tom Giffard to make the motion.

Motion NDM8232 Tom Giffard

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes a proposal to create a Wales tourism Bill.

2. Notes that the purpose of this Bill would be to:

a) revoke the Wales Tourist Board (Transfer of Functions to the National Assembly for Wales and Abolition) Order 2005;

b) create a new board of tourism for Wales;

c) transfer the functions of Visit Wales and associated Welsh Government powers to the new board, including but not exclusive to:

i) encouraging people to visit Wales and people living in Wales and the United Kingdom to take their holidays there;

ii) encouraging the provision and improvement of tourist amenities and facilities in Wales;

iii) promotion of publicity;

iv) provision of advisory and information services; and

v) establishment of committees to advise it in the performance of its functions.

Motion moved.

Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi, Dirprwy Lywydd, and it's a pleasure for me today to introduce my first Member's legislative proposal to the Senedd. My legislative proposal is something close to my heart, and I know the hearts of many in this Chamber—our tourism industry. We know how important the tourism industry is to our economy here in Wales, and it's something we need to nurture and to enhance. I want as many people as possible from across the UK, and indeed the world, to experience what we have to offer, from our absolutely stunning natural beauty to the famous Welsh welcome. Wales really does have an unmatched offer. But we haven't always sold it as well as we could have. Think of the way that somewhere like Scotland sells itself internationally—full of mythology, major events and incomparable beauty. Now, I think we do all those things better here in Wales, but yet, in the year before the pandemic, they had three times the number of visitors that we did. And one of the reasons is that VisitScotland sits away from Government. It's not something run by civil servants sat in a Government department. They're an arm's-length body that can have the best minds from within the tourism industry itself. And that's what this proposal is looking to establish here in Wales—a tourism body run by the very people that know the industry the best. They know how to market, they know what works and they know what Wales has to offer. And these aren't big businesses—the Federation of Small Businesses have been clear in saying the tourism sector is one that's overwhelmingly made up of small and medium-sized enterprises. And that's the norm. VisitEngland, VisitScotland, VisitBritain—these are all set up in this way. The Welsh Government have made us the outlier.

So, the motion seeks to reinstate or create an arm’s-length tourism body, removed from Welsh Government influence. This would have an independent board, a chief executive officer, with a letter of remit outlining general policy asks from the Government. An independent body would mean that there are board members who are held to a high level of transparency through, for example, annual reports, yearly accounts that are audited by the auditor general, and annual business plans that include milestones and targets. They wouldn't be a footnote in departmental expenditure.

There could be independence from Government funding. Both VisitBritain and VisitEngland are able to draw on private sector funding, so this could be a cut in costs in itself. And an arm's-length body would sit above politics and policies, and instead act as a critical friend to the Welsh Government, working together and supporting it where it gets things right, but then standing up for the industry, rather than the Government, when they disagree. Today's proposal isn't about any one policy—that sort of misses the point—but let me give you an example of what I mean. VisitBritain is an arm's-length body and it came out against the Welsh Government's pursued policy of a tourism tax, calling it 'inadvisable at a time when our sector is focused on driving up visitor numbers in the wake of the pandemic'. Could you imagine Visit Wales in its current structure ever calling out the Welsh Government like that? It's impossible to imagine. They didn't do it because they're Labour or Conservative or anything else; they did it because they're speaking up for their industry, real people that represent their part of our economy because they know it so well and want to see it thrive for generations to come.

I have so much more that I could say, but those are just some of the reasons why I've brought this legislative proposal forward today and am looking forward to hearing contributions from colleagues during the debate too. Thank you.

I'm happy to support this legislative proposal, although I should explain that I'm approaching it from a slightly different angle to the Member that moved the motion.

I will talk of my experience as a journalist back 20 years ago. I recall during that time, early in my career, in the 1990s, perhaps, there was a great deal of coverage in the Welsh media, in news and so on, as to what was happening within the tourism industry. Jonathan Jones was chief executive of the Wales Tourist Board. He was a very prominent public figure who spoke publicly very regularly on very technical elements of how to drive the tourism industry forward. I will declare an interest here. I don't think I have to declare an interest on my wife's former profession, but at one time she worked for the Wales Tourist Board.

I'm not saying that the tourist board did everything perfectly, but it was a body that was outward facing, public facing, and understood the industry. I remember what happened following the bonfire of the quangos: tourism in Wales disappeared from the public agenda in Wales. I recall asking, where I would have asked for an interview with the chief executive of the Wales Tourist Board, we had to go through the Government and ask for an interview with the Minister who had responsibility for tourism, and on a technical tourism issue, the Minister often didn't want to speak. It wasn't a particularly political issue; it wasn't a huge political priority. But there was something lost there, I think, in terms of expertise and discussion and conversation between tourism managers in Wales, the public in Wales, and communities in Wales, and I think that that is something that has been lost.

I would see great benefit in having a body that has a very specific function of developing tourism in Wales, and could do so in collaboration with communities in Wales. I'm not critical of the civil servants involved with tourism within the Welsh Government at the moment, but there is benefit in having a cohort of people who develop expertise over a period of years and can innovate.

One of the things that I would want this new body to do is to work more closely with communities. Tourism, in my constituency as much as any other, can be a strong economic tool, it can be a force for good, but tourism done in a way that isn't sensitive to the needs, aspirations and values of a community can be extremely damaging. We in Ynys Môn would want to see the development of a far closer conversation between the industry and the communities, and that is something that this new body could do whilst developing that expertise to innovate in tourism for the benefit of our communities.

I'm delighted to be supporting you, Tom Giffard, with your first legislative proposal, and what a really good call it is, and that's for a Wales tourism Bill. The lack of joined-up thinking across the tourism industry and policy is clear for all to see, and this doesn't come from those operators. The whole remit of Visit Wales is actually meant to be about driving trade in tourism. After all, this important industry supports one in seven Welsh jobs, and yet it is the Welsh Government's tourism tax that is now putting at risk those same jobs. I have seen very little, if any, support from Visit Wales with regard to the condemnation of this retrograde tax collection.

Now, we're very fortunate in north Wales. We have the tourism chief executive of Go North Wales or North Wales Tourism chief executive, Jim Jones. He himself has said that he's found it staggering that Welsh Government continue to talk about a tourism tax. He said,

'A tax on tourism would be a hugely regressive step that would damage an industry that is already reeling after being battered by the pandemic.'

Many owners of self-catering holiday lets have contacted us to say that they are considering selling up and leaving the market due to the Welsh Government's added red tape. Three hundred per cent council tax premium for second homes does nothing to address the housing crisis in Wales. Added together, these policies would amount to a disaster for thriving local tourism hotspots. This is a slap in the face to hospitality businesses, but where Visit Wales is concerned, as has been said by my colleague Rhun over there, we all remember the days of the tourism board. What we need from Visit Wales, what we need is something that's outward facing, stands up to Welsh Government on occasion and actually defends the very people who actually put that remit in their hands.

I have raised, but to be fair to the Deputy Minister, about how Visit Wales does not offer the same accommodation search features that VisitScotland or Visit Northern Ireland do, and I know we're meeting soon to actually look at this. The current centralised structure of Visit Wales means that our local operators, as well as those in other parts of Wales, can often feel left behind and they just see Visit Wales as another cohort of Welsh Government. We need a new board that would be above party politics, would help to put those businesses directly into the driver's seat. This would make sure we have a strategy, devised by local tourism operators, not by bureaucrats and civil servants.

Will you take an intervention? I know the time is tight, but would the Member agree with me that it can't just be about empowering tourism businesses, but about devising tourism in a way that works, yes, for those businesses, but for the communities in which they operate?

Oh, yes, we have to have sensitive tourism, Rhun, and we don't want people—. We know with Snowdon that overtourism can actually make it where we may end up losing visitors because of—. So, there has to be a fair balance, I would agree with you on that.

I think this proposal and a new Wales tourism board would go a long way towards fixing these problems, and I can also assure you that you'll be able to deliver a lot more for considerably less. Diolch.

Tourism is a vital part of our economy; it accounted for 11.3 per cent of all jobs in 2020, and, in rural areas like the one I represent, that proportion is much higher. More than half of those jobs are part time, a far higher proportion than the economy as a whole. It is essential, but it's fragile. Many of the jobs are in hospitality and it is a sector dominated by small and medium enterprises—businesses that we know are still recovering from COVID and struggling to deal with the impacts of Brexit. As COVID and Brexit have taken their toll on our economy and on our hospitality sector in particular, I think it is time we had a renewed debate about how we support our tourism industry.

Business confidence in Wales is at its lowest ever outside of lockdown periods, with retail and hospitality businesses especially hard pressed. There's no getting around these figures: small businesses' confidence is at its third lowest level since the Federation of Small Businesses started tracking it nearly a decade ago. So, I do think it's right that we start looking at how we deliver a sustainable tourism and hospitality sector going hand in hand with businesses in our community across Wales. An example is, today, in Ystradgynlais, a town of 8,000 people in the region I represent, the last bank in town, Lloyds Bank, is going to be closing. Lloyds Bank, which made a profit last year of £1.3 billion. The bank in Ystradgynlais is essential, along with those small shops, to be able to serve our tourism and hospitality sectors. So, we must look at this in the round.

I do have a number of questions about the proposal and about the board that's been suggested. Firstly, to whom is the board accountable? How is it accountable to the sector, but also to the Government and to us here in the Senedd? Who would make up the committees proposed? How would the board be funded? These are critical questions, and I do hope to hear more about these, because what we're talking about is revoking legislation and handing those powers from Welsh Government to a new body.

We have seen complex proposals brought forward around tourism, but there hasn't been a thread through these discussions about the overall visitor experience and the effect that that has on our communities in Wales. Tourism and hospitality are vital to our country. It is about making sure we are a healthy, outward-looking country. I strongly support the need to promote tourism in Wales and the Welsh brand around the world, and hope that this is a starting point for our discussion. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'm delighted to be able to speak in support of Tom Giffard's excellent proposal to create a Wales tourism Bill, and as already outlined here today, the Bill would create a new tourism board for Wales, certainly empowering the businesses of our tourism sector whilst unshackling their entrepreneurial spirit. We know—it's already been mentioned—the number of jobs that tourism supports here in Wales, and let's not forget the types of jobs we're talking about there: front-of-house roles in our hotels and attractions and areas of hospitality, but also those roles we often don't perhaps consider, such as the role of accountants, butchers and those in the supply chain that make such a difference in our communities. 

In the region I represent of North Wales, tourism supports 46,000 jobs and usually generates around £3.5 billion every year to our local economy. Creating an independent tourism board, giving those businesses more input into how Wales is marketed as a world-beating tourism destination, can only be a good thing, in my view, both for those businesses, but to Rhun ap Iorwerth's point as well, also for those communities, in making sure things are done properly in supporting those communities, supporting those jobs in those communities, creating those jobs, generating the wealth that we all want to see and those communities prospering. 

In my view, an independent board will have a better understanding of where investment is needed, how it can make the greatest impact, and how Government policy can best support our tourism sector. Perhaps it would remove some of that tension that we see at the moment from Visit Wales, where they're doing their best, I'm sure, but there's a tension there when it comes to Government policy because they are a Government arm. An independent board will be able to champion best practice for essentials like marketing and publicity, destination management and improved amenities, because we know that things like our public toilets being well maintained, sandy beaches and adequate parking are all really important factors for our visitors and local residents alike.

Today's motion, of course, proposes the transfer of power away from Visit Wales, part of the Welsh Government. I would have thought it was something that Welsh Government would be happy to embrace, because we know that Wales is home to countless world-beating tourist attractions and destinations, and empowering the best and brightest of these to champion Wales and everything we have to offer, in my view, can only be a good thing. These are the people who've been there, these are people who've done that, they've set their businesses up, they've created the jobs—let's empower them to do their best to promote Wales on a global stage as well.

So, with all this in mind, I'd like to encourage Members today to back this proposal, to champion our tourism sector, champion the jobs it creates, and champion the communities across Wales that it sustains as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I call on the Minister for Economy, Vaughan Gething. 

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to Members for contributing to today's half-an-hour debate. It won't be a surprise that I disagree with the Member's essential proposal, but he's entitled to bring his proposal forward. That's part of what this Chamber is for. I was, however, a little disappointed at the disparaging references to civil servants in the opening. The visitor economy is a priority for the Welsh Government, with tourism-related industry generating 5 per cent of Wales's gross value added, or £3.4 billion in 2020-21.

We have a clear and ambitious strategy for the visitor economy, 'Welcome to Wales: Priorities for the visitor economy 2020-2025'. Our final budget provides an allocation of £10.63 million in revenue and £5 million of capital to support the sector, and help deliver the strategy. That will provide funding for essential capital investment, like the Brilliant Basics fund, to support small-scale infrastructure investment, along with revenue support for marketing campaigns, investing in skills, recruitment initiatives and quality assurance through grading. 

We also have ambitious cross-Government policies in development. I include the visitor levy and the statutory licensing scheme in those, in our manifestos and in the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru. These are aimed at enhancing and supporting the industry further. These three factors—strategy, budget and cross-Government, cross-sector working—are the cornerstones of effective policy making at the heart of Government. These directly support the development of the tourism industry here in Wales.

Members will of course be aware that, last month, I announced that the Deputy Minister, Dawn Bowden, was taking a lead on matters relating to tourism, and the tourism and hospitality sector have already started to work positively and constructively with the Deputy Minister. She’s already had an opportunity to see first-hand examples of what Visit Wales are doing to support the sector. She’s been, for example, to Cosmeston lakes in the Vale of Glamorgan to see small-scale infrastructure improvements through Brilliant Basics, and how they help to enhance the visitor experience. She’s been to Pendine Sands in Carmarthenshire; there’s a multimillion-pound visitor attraction there, home to the museum of land speed—at some point I’ll tell him my family connection to that—in addition to a new eco-holiday resort. We supported that project through Tourism Attractor Destinations with former EU funds.

Visit Wales creates a powerful and dedicated one-stop-shop department, with less of a false distinction between making policy and implementation. It has the necessary critical mass and increased commercial focus to generate policy areas that are directly suitable to Wales and our economy. And we are undeniably very close to the sector in the way that we operate. In Wales, we have the ability to know each other well, to engage with each other frequently. That does not happen in every country. I’m proud of how close we are as a Government to the people and organisations here in Wales, including in the visitor economy. We have direct and honest engagement with industry bodies and Ministers, not just officials. The idea that we don’t understand what’s happening and there isn't an industry body lobbying for views and interests simply isn’t accurate. The visitor economy forum and our regional tourism partnerships feed directly into Visit Wales with businesses making very clear their views, including on the times we disagree. But we do listen to the feedback, and we’re interested in the advice from the sector to inform the choices we need to make in the Government. But if there were an arm’s-length body, let’s not pretend that it would somehow put those choices and that advice above the political fray. We all know that wouldn’t happen.

I can also highlight some real examples of how Visit Wales being part of Government has been beneficial to the sector. For example, during the COVID pandemic, the need to work closely across a range of areas, and the direct engagement with the sector, Visit Wales and Ministers, led to effective guidance and support, which the tourism sector supported, and unprecedented levels of funding to maintain visitor economy businesses. Most recently, of course, our recent collaboration with the Football Association of Wales—I’m delighted about the result this week, of course—during the FIFA World Cup worked extremely well in promoting Wales to international audiences, international offices, and in positively promoting modern-day Wales, including of course the Welsh language, culture and priorities. Visit Wales, I believe, sits in a strong position as a key department within the Government, whilst still being able to pursue commercial activity, for example to target international visitors through the likes of Expedia—we had a partnership, again, with them through the football world cup—and to work effectively with VisitBritain to promote Wales. [Interruption.] I’ll take the intervention.

You talk a great deal about the sector; are you going to discuss the connection between Visit Wales and the communities where tourism exists? I haven’t heard you talk about the communities at all.

That’s part of what we look to listen to as well, because those businesses recognise they have an interest in seeing a community that survives and supports the sector. It’s why we have within our co-operation agreement the work we’re doing on the balance of the impact of the visitor economy, to make sure that it’s a positive for the communities that house those visitor attractions, whether that’s in rural and coastal parts of Wales, or the visitors who come to some of our cities as well, to understand how it adds to, not takes away from, community life in those parts of Wales.

I should also point out that VisitBritain might be a part that is in theory at arm’s length; in practice, it has a very direct relationship with DCMS Ministers, and the way they want VisitBritain to behave. I think it’s a challenge that VisitEngland is housed within VisitBritain. [Interruption.] I’ll take another intervention and then I’ll try and conclude.

Thank you, Minister. You’ve heard me, in the last couple of weeks, mention Go North Wales and Jim Jones. He’s very well known—he’s like a superstar in north Wales. Have you heard of Go North Wales, and would you agree with me that they run a very effective support industry and marketing exercise for tourism in north Wales? Personally, I’d like to see it replicated across the whole of Wales. But have you heard of them and would you agree with me that they're doing a really good job?

I think there are lots of positives that Go North Wales actually deliver, and when we look at what we do in different regions of Wales to promote Wales, I think there are good stories and learnings from each of us. I am, of course, aware of Jim Jones; he has prolific and very strident views on a range of subjects.

With Visit Wales, we have a similar approach and model to Cadw and Creative Wales. I believe those operating models work well for us. The Government will abstain on the proposal before the Senedd today, as is usual when these proposals come forward, but we do want to make clear, to be honest with the mover and, indeed, others, that we don't support the proposal before us, but we do, though, look forward to seeing more detail in the proposal. 

I call on Tom Giffard to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank everybody who has contributed to this debate today? As the Minister, I guess, alluded to at the end of his contribution there, I think this is the start of a conversation and not the end of a conversation. I'm grateful, even though he doesn't support the motion today, that the Government are going to abstain on this as well, and I intend to continue this conversation as this develops.

In my view, an independent arm's-length body is something that is sorely needed to boost our tourism sector after a crippling set of lockdowns, an increased cost of living and other pressures facing the tourism industry more generally at the moment. I'm grateful to some of the contributors who made their arguments as well, particularly Rhun ap Iorwerth. I'm grateful for his support, even if we didn't come at it from the same way, but, like a nice walk around the Gower peninsula, it doesn't matter where you start—as long as you end up in the same place, it doesn't really matter. [Laughter.] But it's really important that not only would it be representative of the sector, but it would also work very well with communities as well, and I think that's a very important point well made there. 

Jane Dodds and Sam Rowlands talked about the fragility of small businesses that are involved in the tourism economy, and bringing together the best and the brightest minds to work on it. Jane, you raised totally legitimate questions, I think, about the funding and the structure of the board. One of the downsides of these half-an-hour debates, I suppose, is that you don't get enough chance to get into the weeds of these things. My preference would be to have that industry and community-led governance model, and have it be available for funding through Government, not, as I said in my opening remarks, as a Government line in a department budget but with its own set budget, but also an openness to be able to get private sector funding and so on. So, this is something, perhaps, we can talk about as, hopefully, this develops, going forward.

Then, Janet Finch-Saunders talked about how Visit Wales can refocus a remit on enhancing tourism, over and above the competing aims of the Welsh Government. I think the Minister, in his closing remarks, spoke about a lot of good things that the Government are doing, but isn't that exactly the reason why we need an independent Visit Wales—to verify those claims? A Visit Wales that sits outside of Government could endorse all of the points you made much more effectively than, perhaps, a Minister making them as well. Perhaps evidence of that is the fact that, as you alluded to, Minister, the responsibility for tourism has shifted from one Minister to another in the last couple of months. Each time that happens, it's a natural consequence of that. Having the experts sitting on a board—sitting on a panel—responsible for tourism is crucial, going forward.

So, in a nutshell, Dirprwy Lywydd—I'm conscious of the time—the proposed Bill is a rallying cry to our tourism industry. The point is that the Government is there to listen, rather than to tell, as well as to support it out of a precarious situation through robust policy ideas, and with an independent and transparent critical friend. I think it's the least they deserve. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection; I will, therefore, defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.