5. What discussions has the First Minister held regarding courts in Wales that have been earmarked for closure by the Ministry of Justice? OAQ(5)0027(FM)[W]

The court closure programme will have a significant adverse impact on access to justice in Wales. We have provided a robust response to the UK Government, and although the decision has been taken, that is something that we have pressed very hard for in order to have enough courts in Wales. But, unfortunately, that is not the view of the UK Government.

Thank you, First Minister. Unfortunately, one of those courts earmarked for closure and will close is the main court in Carmarthen town centre, which is a historic building for the whole of the town. Now that that decision has been taken, the people of the town are eager to take back ownership of that building and turn it into a resource for the town. It is, of course, full of history and full of the story of justice within Carmarthen. Could the Government be an advocate on behalf of the county council and the town council with the Ministry of Justice because the letters that I have written have received no response whatsoever from them, in order to ensure that discussions can commence in order to see if it would be possible to retain the building for the benefit of the people of Carmarthen?

Well, the building itself, of course, is a very old building. To me, it’s an important building; it’s where I prosecuted for the last time in the Crown Court, many years ago now. So, there are some people—well, they’re not still in jail, I don’t believe, because of me. I don’t think that that’s much help in terms of support ultimately, but, no. May I therefore ask the Member to write to me, and I will then write to the Government in London to ensure that there is a response and to ensure that it’s possible for local people to take over a building that is all important to the history and heritage of the town?

First Minister, in the last session we discussed the courts closure programme and I raised with you specifically the issue with regard to the Pontypridd magistrates’ court, more from the perspective around Wales of what is a cost-cutting exercise with courts, but one that is restricting access to justice for some of the poorest and most vulnerable communities. First Minister, I wonder whether now is the time for the Welsh Government to at least carry out a review of the impact of some of those UK Government decisions on our communities? We’ve never really been given proper answers to the points that were raised during the consultation, which seemed more of a charade than a genuine consultation, but there are very serious access-to-justice issues arising. It’s all very well passing laws and having all the justice in the world; if people can’t access it, they have no justice at all, and the UK Government has totally failed us in this respect.

It was a fundamental principle of Welsh law until 1536, and a fundamental principle of what we would now describe, I suppose, as the law of England and Wales since then, that justice comes to people. That’s the reason why High Court justices travel around. In the last few years it’s now been suggested that people have to go to justice, and travel a long distance, and when they get there, not get representation either, while they’re at it. That shows how much of a deterioration there’s been in the justice system, but I’m fully in agreement with him that there’s a need to review the impact on people, because as somebody who worked in the courts for many, many years I can see nothing now but things getting slower and justice being either denied or delayed to too many people.

First Minister, I know you have a very close family connection to Northern Ireland, and I wonder if, on your visits to Northern Ireland, you’ve observed the policy of the Northern Ireland Executive to consolidate as many administrative, local government and legal buildings, and public service buildings, as possible, so that they can have hubs that maintain access to the citizen. Is this perhaps a model that you could look at with the UK Government to ensure that as many courts and tribunal buildings stay open?

I think that makes perfect sense. With regard to the criminal courts, of course, they need to have access to cells, so they are in a different category to the county courts, which have been in administrative buildings for many, many years across Wales. But I think the suggestion of sharing a particular building or facilities makes perfect sense in order to provide a coherent and consistent service for the public.