3. What have been the main benefits for Wales of EU membership during the fourth Assembly? OAQ(5)0055(FM)

5. What is the Welsh Government's assessment of the importance of Wales’s membership of the European Union? OAQ(5)0040(FM)[W]

Thank you. Llywydd, I understand you’ve given your permission for questions 3 and 5 to be grouped. The benefits to Wales of EU membership are wide ranging and fundamental to our prosperity. We know that, in recent years, EU funds have supported significant investments in the Welsh economy and labour market.

I thank the First Minister for that response. Scientists and universities in Wales have spoken out strongly about the importance of remaining in the EU. Is the First Minister aware that Cardiff University alone has received Horizon 2020 funding for 49 projects at a value of £16.9 million, and that this money enables the university to build working relationships with leading experts all over the European Union and to develop really important groundbreaking research, such as testing innovative vaccines for type 1 diabetes, solar powered water purification and working out how the brain works? Do we want to throw all these opportunities away?

No, we don’t. Higher education operates not on a little-Britain model but on a world model. It’s important that there’s access to as much finance as possible and access to as much academic brain power as possible. We also see of course, for example, in Swansea University, where the new campus has been built partially with the help of European money. Cutting ourselves off from the main stream is not the way to advance science in the UK.

As the First Minister knows, if the British state remains a member of the European Union, it will hold the presidency of the council for six months next year. That would be a golden opportunity to start the process of renewing Europe and creating a partnership that works better for our citizens. Would the First Minister agree to ensure that that presidency is one that is held jointly between the various Governments of the UK, with Wales playing a key role, and even consider holding a European summit here in Wales?

Well, firstly, of course, we must ensure that the United Kingdom is still part of the European Union after next week. It’s very important that we should be positive about what the European Union has done, namely that it’s brought democracy to eastern European countries; namely that funding has gone to those areas of Europe that needed it; namely, of course, investment in a number of parts of Europe that wouldn’t have seen such investment previously. It would be extremely odd if the United Kingdom took the European Union presidency on the way out of the union. And, of course, it is important after the referendum next Thursday that that positive message is preached, if you like, not just across Wales, but across the whole of Europe.

First Minister, you may have seen a ‘leave’ broadcast last week that said that Britain’s EU contributions would be spent on the NHS should we leave the European Union. We’ve also been told that they’re going to be spent on guaranteeing Welsh regional aid, they also guarantee payments to farmers, and now, oh wonder, oh wonder of magic money, it’s going to preserve the amounts that are going to Welsh universities. Do you agree with me that a better way to preserve all of these valuable contributions to our economy is to vote to remain in the European Union next Thursday?

The Member puts it well, and I could not improve on that, but he’s right to say that we have certainty now; we’ll have no certainty if we choose to leave next Thursday. It’s a jump off the edge of a cliff. I noted today that—. I saw a letter signed by various backbenchers and Ministers from London, saying that funding would be guaranteed, but they have no such power—no such power—to offer that guarantee. At least with the vow before the Scottish referendum, those who signed it had the power to deliver on it; those who signed this letter have no more power to deliver on it than my children’s pet cat.

Given that one of the Labour Party’s great benefits of belonging to the European Union is the workers’ rights legislation, supposedly emanating from Brussels, perhaps the First Minister would like to comment on the rights of those workers formerly employed at the Bosch plant bordering his constituency, and perhaps reflect on the fact that it was British money, used in regional aid, that actually built the brand-new plant in Hungary, which cost them their jobs, along, of course, with all their workers’ rights.

Well, the issue with Bosch was that—. It’s right to say that the factory did move to Hungary. Most of those people who were employed there found jobs elsewhere, actually, very quickly. Renishaw now, of course, own the site and Renishaw are developing very, very quickly. But, we need to be careful here, because we are successful at attracting investment from other countries. So, it does work both ways. And yes, we need to make sure that those who have suffered most from globalisation are protected. That has been a weakness, I have to say, because globalisation has not been an unmitigated benefit for so many workers. Whatever happens after Thursday, the idea that we must live in an age of austerity forever and we must live in an age where workers’ rights are consistently whittled away, that must be defeated, because the working people of Wales and Britain will not accept that. But, he and I will be in a different position in terms of how we resolve that. I don’t see that leaving the EU and putting us in the hands of those who signed that letter, who are wild free-marketeers who care nothing for workers’ rights, is actually the way forward. But, the days when we could say to people, ‘Globalisation is all a good thing’ are gone, and we have to make sure, across Europe, that people’s rights are protected, that workers’ rights are protected, and that people truly feel that Governments are on their side, and many Governments have lost their way in that regard.

The previous Member talked about one business; I would like to draw attention to the fact that 770 businesses have been created across Rhondda Cynon Taf, including in my constituency of Cynon Valley, thanks to EU funding, employing local people and contributing to the local economy. First Minister, do you agree with me that our continued membership of the EU and the support it provides are essential to contributing an environment where businesses in Wales can thrive?

I do. I think we have to remember that the European money that we have seen coming into Wales is money that was not provided by successive British Governments in the 1980s and 1990s; it did not come to Wales. This is extra money that the Tories in the 1980s and 1990s would not provide for Wales. We still have a situation where the Barnett formula has not been addressed properly. At least we can rely on that European funding. What would happen if it wasn’t there? That money would end up back in the Barnett formula or end up being kept in London, and regions of England, as well as Wales and Scotland, would not see that money; it would be kept in Whitehall. I don’t buy this argument that somehow this is money that would come to Wales; I think this is money, if it does exist at all—I mean, the Member David Melding has made this point—that would sit in Whitehall and we would not see every penny that we get now, and that is dangerous for the people of Wales.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas. No? Mark Reckless.

The First Minister said earlier that he didn’t want exporters to face unnecessarily high hurdles, and, in setting out the challenges to the steel industry, he’s emphasised his view that the pound has been too high. Would he therefore welcome a more competitive level for the pound, including against the euro?

Well, it depends what you mean by ‘competitive’. If it’s going to plummet, that, as he knows full well, will drive inflation, because we import so much. More than anything else, what the steel industry needs is a market, and, if it cannot enter the European market or any other world market without a tariff being imposed, then the steel industry doesn’t have a future. The UK is not big enough to drive demand for the UK steel industry. And, to my mind, what concerns me more than anything else is that I do not believe that there is a plan for what happens if we leave. Nigel Farage himself has said it doesn’t matter if there’s a trade deal or not. That is absolutely disastrous for the UK’s economy. We export—[Interruption.] Well, we export half of what we produce. We export half of it to the EU: half of our exports go there. Coming the other way, it’s 7 per cent; that’s the difference. It may be a higher figure financially, but percentage-wise we export far more than comes back in. And what worries me is that our export market will be jeopardised, Welsh lamb will be hit by a double whammy where it would cost more to sell Welsh lamb on the continent, and yet I hear your party say you want a trade deal with New Zealand—that means floods of New Zealand lamb coming in cheaply into Wales. So, there are some consequences here that have not been thought through. Better, I say, that we don’t have the barriers to export that leaving the UK would put in place. Better not to have that, and better to have a situation where, yes, we’re able to export freely and we’re able to get access to those funds. We will not get those funds and not get that guaranteed access if we leave.