7. 7. Plaid Cymru Debate: The Wales Bill

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 5:15 pm on 15 June 2016.

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Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 5:15, 15 June 2016

I think the Member is absolutely right that there are sections within the Bill reserved that it’s not quite clear exactly what they do mean. For example, why, in section 175, would you have parenthood, parental responsibility, child arrangements and adoption as a reserved matter when, clearly, there are major responsibilities we have that overlap into those areas? And there are a number of those. That’s why it’s important that those are explored in very considerable detail.

I was mentioning the point about fiscal powers because, as we know, the asbestos Bill, which I brought as a private Member’s Bill in the last session, failed predominantly because of not having fiscal powers. It seems to me that fiscal powers with regard to devolved matters is quite a potentially important area. Of course, many of us were at the very useful Bevan Foundation briefing looking at areas of taxation, many of which would require the devolution of fiscal powers or the use of more complicated powers under the 2014 Act. There is a way of simplifying and clarifying that aspect of law.

Can I just go back to the jurisdiction point, because it is raised and it is important and it is quite fundamental to where we’re going? Just to reiterate the point, this, in many ways, is an administered matter. There is a mystique that’s been attached to a jurisdiction. The jurisdiction is essentially purely the geographical area in which law applies and where court cases are heard. So, the idea, now that we have our own legislature in Wales passing legislation; the logic for having a jurisdiction it seems to me to be unanswerable. It is a matter that shouldn’t cause great controversy. In the last session, I was able to chair a justice stakeholders group, and there’s a report that I would recommend Members read. If I may just read out the part that was relevant there, because I think it is summed up very well. It said, ‘The need to resolve issues relating to the jurisdiction is, in our view, now unavoidable. We do not, at this stage, consider it necessary or feasible to establish a separate legal jurisdiction for Wales, which would involve significant organisational change. What the group favours is making simple administrative changes within the current unified system of courts and tribunals and judiciary of England and Wales through the designation of Welsh cases adjudicated by judges sitting in courts designated as Welsh courts.’

And, if there was any greater authority on this, in a speech by the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales, Lord Thomas, in October 2015, he made it very clear when he said,

‘It is right for me to say that there is no reason why a unified court system encompassing England and Wales cannot serve two legal jurisdictions.’

Now, I hope this sort of fascination with the mystique of jurisdiction actually gets resolved, because it is a simple administrative matter. It could even amount to just a tick box when legal applications are made to the courts: ‘Does this case involve a matter of Welsh or English Law?’ If so, it then gets designated and administered in the correct way. I hope that the working party that has been set up by the Secretary of State for Wales will quickly resolve this, because this particular Bill needs to have the jurisdictional issue resolved before it is able to proceed properly.