The next item on our agenda is a debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21. It’s a debate on bovine TB and I call on Simon Thomas to move the motion.

Motion NDM6088 Simon Thomas, Paul Davies, Neil Hamilton, Llyr Gruffydd

Supported by Angela Burns, Janet Finch-Saunders, Andrew R.T. Davies, Adam Price, Mark Isherwood, Dafydd Elis-Thomas, David Melding, Russell George, Nick Ramsay, Mohammad Asghar

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Calls on the Welsh Government to take decisive action to tackle bovine TB by committing to use the most effective measures to control and eradicate bovine TB and ensuring that testing and movement restrictions are proportionate to the disease status of an area.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Llywydd. I’m pleased to open this debate and I’m particularly pleased that the debate is supported by Members of all opposition parties at least, here, and is an attempt, I hope, to put before the Senedd a picture of what is happening today on the ground in our rural communities—the threat to the livelihoods of many families and farms and to community life that this disease poses. We look forward to the statement in around three weeks’ time, I believe, from the Government on their TB eradication plan, and I hope that this debate will assist the Government by giving a broad-ranging and in-depth picture of the problems that farmers are currently facing.

May I just say something about the wording of the motion in case people are wondering why it is worded in the way that it is? It is based on the advice given to the Government by its own consultative group on animal health, including farm stock, the report on which was published on 28 July at the time of the Royal Welsh Show. That paper specifically requested that there should be a TB eradication programme that would be a combination of different measures aimed at all sources of TB—those within the herd and with the wildlife reserve—which would allow us to eradicate bovine TB.The report also asked for the introduction of some kind of programme to deal with bovine TB that included a different assessment in those areas where incidents were low, and to look at rules that were proportionate to the status of the disease in the various areas of Wales. So, that’s the purpose of the debate, and I do very much hope that the whole Assembly will be able to unite around a motion that is so important to our farmers.

There’s no doubt about the impact that bovine TB has on dairy farms and on beef producers at the moment, not just in financial terms, but also in emotional terms, because entire families, farm workers and, quite, often generations invest their time in the development of these herds. Although the numbers of herds affected by TB has reduced recently—and that’s positive in terms of the number of herds—I do think it’s important that we look at the percentage. Each one of us who has been looking at the situation in relation to dairy farms know that a number of farms have gone out of business over the last decade. I think it’s important to place on record that, this year, 56 per cent of all dairy herds in Wales have been affected by some sort of restrictions emerging from an incidence of this disease—that’s 56 per cent. Ten years ago, that figure stood at 38 per cent. So, yes, there’s a reduction in the number, but there’s an increase in the percentage. There’s a particular increase, of course, in those areas that are intensive action areas against TB: north Pembrokeshire, parts of Carmarthenshire, and there’s been a shocking increase in the Vale of Clwyd recently, which is quite a blow to those who think that the disease is under some sort of control in Wales.

There is a significant cost to the taxpayer because compensation is paid to farmers, and rightly so. That cost is somewhere in the region of £100 million across the whole of Britain, and a significant proportion of that—tens of millions of pounds—is relevant to Wales.

There is one other aspect that I would like to mention at the very beginning of this debate, so that Members are cognisant of it, and that is, of course, now that we have now decided to leave the European Union, there is a question about the status in trade terms between Wales, the rest of the UK, and what remains of the European Union. The TB eradication programme is a Welsh Government programme. It’s a Welsh programme, but, importantly, it’s also a European Commission programme. It’s been approved by the European Commission, and it’s been funded, to a great extent, by the European Commission. Because we have a programme in place that has been approved by the Commission, there is no way in which other nations in the European Union can question produce from Wales. Welsh produce is accepted everywhere in the single market, and there can be no objections to that. But, once we have exited the single market, as has been proposed by the Government at present, then questions could be raised about Wales’s status. We do have an enhanced level of TB in our cattle herd and, therefore, questions could be asked as to whether Welsh dairy and beef produce should be received into nations such as France or any other part of the single market. So, there are no guarantees that the rest of the European Union will accept that. That was reinforced just this morning by Peter Midmore from Aberystwyth University, who gave evidence to the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee. Professor Midmore was asked whether there was a risk of this happening, and he said quite clearly that there was a real risk that this would happen, because, under the World Trade Organization rules, exports can be prevented if there is a problem relating to a certain disease in a particular nation.

Will the honourable gentleman take an intervention?

Indeed, I’ll give way.

He’s not in the least bit honourable. [Laughter.]

Could I commend Simon in both bringing this debate forward but also in the way he has introduced it very calmly and rationally? He is right; we heard that concern today, and I’ve heard it from individual farmers in my own constituency as well as others that we’ve met with the Farmers Union of Wales and National Farmers Union. That actually makes it incumbent upon UK Ministers at this very moment, including the three Brexiteers, but also our own very good Cabinet Secretary, to make clear to the European Commission, to the European Union Members of the European Parliament that are there now, and to the other heads of nations that what is acceptable now should also be acceptable afterwards. If we have a UK-wide—albeit with differences—TB eradication programme that is acceptable now, there is no darn reason to make it unacceptable tomorrow. That’s what we need to be saying right now.

I don’t disagree with Huw Irranca-Davies in that matter, but I would say to him that I don’t think these things are guaranteed at all because there is so much uncertainty in the situation that we are in.

I do need to bring my opening remarks to a conclusion so that other Members can have their say, but I think it is important also to put on record that the clear advice to the Welsh Government has always been that we dealt with TB in both the farm animal population and the wildlife population. While the Government had a credible vaccination policy it was able to persuade many people, I think, including the European Commission, and others throughout the United Kingdom, that there was an ability to deal with the wildlife problem through vaccinating badgers. I’m sure other Members in the debate will say whether that is an effective policy or not, but the fact was that it did fill a gap, because it showed that something was being done about the wildlife vector. The vaccine is no longer available. It hasn’t been used in Wales for at least a year. There are severe moral grounds for questioning whether we should be using a vaccine that is actually of greater use in Africa and countries that have TB in their young child population, where badgers actually need an increasing amount of vaccine in order for it to work in them. So, I think that we do need to see from the Welsh Government a new plan. If vaccine is not what is going to be used to deal with the wildlife vector, then the Government has to come forward with a coherent plan of how it is going to deal with TB in badgers, because that is what it boils down to.

This isn’t about direct transmission between badgers and cattle. They don’t go around snogging each other. It’s in the pasture. It’s in the way, sometimes, that farmers use their own practices. There’s more and more evidence coming out all the time, for example, about the use of slurry and other methods. But it is endemic, and it is really endemic in parts of Wales, and if we don’t have a credible plan for getting rid of it, then we will face trade difficulties, we will face animal health difficulties and we will face severe financial difficulties for many of our farmers.

I haven’t mentioned a cull yet, so I’ll just say the cull that I want to stop. The cull I want to stop is the 117,771 cows that have been culled because of TB in the last 10 years. Let’s talk about culls when we have to, but let’s put it in the right context of which animals are deserving of our support. I want to see all animals treated correctly with welfare at the highest level, and I want to see this disease dealt with in both cows and badgers.

I’m grateful to the Members for bringing this debate here today. I was unable last week to attend the briefing that was given by the British Veterinary Association. However, I did send a representative and I have read the notes very closely. As you will all be aware, I have always approached this subject from an evidence-based position, and I am going to move straight on to the subject of badgers. It is the case that badgers do come into contact with cattle who are infected with bovine TB, and vice versa. It has been, on occasions, proven that there is some connectedness and interaction between those two species.

But what I would like to bring to your attention is that, in 1997, there was an independent scientific body that issued the Krebs report. It did conclude that there was a lack of evidence about whether badger culling would indeed help control the spread of bTB. So, the Westminster Government set up a series of trials to find out, and they were called the randomised badger culling trials—RBCT. They adhered to strict scientific principles and they lasted nearly a decade. They concluded that badger culling could, and I quote,

‘make no meaningful contribution to cattle TB control in Britain.’

So why was that? One of the first things that the trial found out was that in areas of reactive culling—that is, culling after any TB outbreak in cattle—rates of TB were higher than in areas of no culling. Twenty per cent higher, in fact. That informed our understanding of perturbation, when diseased badgers scatter and spread the disease even further. Rather, in order to have even a small reduction in bovine TB, 70 per cent of the badger population in an area no smaller than 150 sq km must be eradicated. This must be done over a very short period of around six weeks every single year. Of course, if you kill too many badgers, you risk local extinction, and that has already happened in the Republic of Ireland.

The BVA paper recommends culling in Wales on this basis, provided that it’s targeted, effective and humane. ‘Humane’ refers to the method of cage trapping and shooting, as used in the RBCT. That does push up the cost-benefit threshold considerably, which leads us to what is happening over the border. In England, any veneer of scientific application or purpose has gone out of the window. The ever-expanding cull flies in the face of Krebs’s evidence. It is an unmitigated disaster and it is a financial black hole. And, it may well be making the very serious problem for famers much worse.

Here in Wales, last December, the former Deputy Minister for Farming and Food announced that, due to a global shortage of BCG vaccine, there had to be a suspension of vaccinating badgers in the controlled area. At that time, we were four years into a five-year project within that intensive action area, which is in my region. I understand and I know that the Cabinet Secretary will reassess our strategy accordingly. But, in so doing, Cabinet Secretary, I urge you to stick with the science. As Lord Krebs recently said of the English—I won’t say ‘trials’, I will say ‘English culls’:

‘Badger culling is a sideshow. The only effective way to stop TB is stopping the spread from cattle to cattle by more testing and a much better test.’

And that also, by the way, explains the increase, as has been outlined earlier, of 50 per cent in the number of herds being identified as being infected, because we have actually screened them more often, more frequently.

I commend Simon Thomas for bringing this debate forward and for the sober way in which he argued his case, in particular his conclusion, because that’s how I was intending to begin my speech, in any event, to point to the enormous cull of cattle that has taken place—with no conferring. Since 1996, nearly 120,000 cattle have been slaughtered as part of the control of tuberculosis in cattle. So, this debate, which is so frequently taking place in the context of the badger cull, has to be considered in a much wider context, because also, as a result of the uncontrolled expansion in the number of badgers in the countryside, other species have also been culled quite naturally—hedgehogs, toads, snakes, slow worms, and so on and so forth. So, nature in the raw, I’m afraid, is perhaps very unpleasant, but that’s the reality of life in the wild.

The problems in Wales are particularly severe. In the 12 months to June 2015, 9,500 cattle were slaughtered, and that’s a 43 per cent increase on the previous year. It’s particularly a problem in our region of Mid and West Wales. In Pembrokeshire, there’s a 55 per cent increase in the number of cattle slaughtered to June 2015. In Carmarthenshire, it’s 89 per cent. Simon referred to the particular problems in Clwyd, which has seen a 129 per cent increase in the number of cattle slaughtered. These are dreadful figures and each one constituted a tragedy for the farm concerned and the farming family that runs it.

So, this is not a problem that is going to be solved very soon. The tragedy is that, at the moment, because of the lack of vaccine, in effect, the Government has no policy. The percentage of herds in Wales that are currently under restriction has gone up from nearly 4 per cent in 2006 to nearly 6 per cent in 2015, and that also poses significant costs and difficulties for the individual farms concerned. Vaccination is undoubtedly part of the solution to the problem, but we won’t have a vaccine available generally until at least 2023, according to the industry.

We have to remember that, even if we do have a vaccination policy, it doesn’t actually confer immunity upon badgers that have already been infected, although it does help to stop other badgers being infected. Although, it’s said that the vaccination itself may be no more than 70 per cent or 80 per cent effective. So, even if we do have a proper vaccination policy, it’s not going to be the solution, 100 per cent.

The cost of the current policy is significant—or the policy that we had up until the vaccine disappeared, that is. In 2015, we spent £922,000 on 1,118 badgers—that’s £825 per badger. I don’t know how we can conclude that this is a policy that we can afford, if it’s going to be applied to achieve the levels of freedom from infection that we would like to see.

Greater surveillance and biosecurity are also important, and have, undoubtedly, had an effect on the figures. They have reduced the number of new incidents—we have to be aware of that—from 1,112 in 2012 down to 854 in 2014, the latest year for which figures are available. But, the slaughter figures have actually got worse as the number of herds infected each year has gone down. In 2014, 8,103 cattle were slaughtered, compared with 6,102 in 2012.

We have to remember that tuberculosis is a horrible disease, and the badgers that are infected by it suffer as well. So, any means that we can employ that have a long-term benefit of reducing the incidence of TB in badgers is good for badgers themselves. It’s not humane, actually, to have a policy that doesn’t work. Therefore, I think we have to, perhaps, be less squeamish about the way in which we approach this.

There is no doubt that badgers do spread tuberculosis to cattle—that has been proved scientifically. It has been proved also that culling badgers does reduce the incidence in herds. I heard what Joyce Watson said about the Krebs report, but the Krebs report has been criticised for many reasons on account of the weaknesses and anomalies in its strategies. We haven’t time to go into that today. But, I agree with her conclusion from the report that has been produced by the British Veterinary Association that a targeted, effective and humane cull is going to have to be part of a long-term policy of eradication. This can be done in ways that are humane. Shooting with rifles at a distance is not a humane or effective way of doing it—that’s not something that I would support. But, there are more humane methods of trapping and gassing in setts with carbon dioxide, which isn’t lethal to badgers except in certain doses, so, if it is not done properly, there is no ill effect that is felt.

So, I’m afraid that the cull will continue—not of badgers, though, but of cattle, with all of the costs. Simon Thomas was quite right, I think, to refer to the emotional costs that are involved here, as well as the financial ones. Ultimately, as far as our negotiations with the EU are concerned, I do agree with both him and Huw Irranca-Davies that this is potentially a hurdle that we’ve got to get over. It’s vitally important, therefore, that the Welsh Government takes a strong view on this, and I think Huw Irranca-Davies showed the way forward—that, under the current regime that has been endorsed by the European Commission, there is no excuse whatsoever for using this, as the French did in relation to BSE, to try to block exports of meat products from Wales or the United Kingdom.

So, although we, perhaps, don’t have the full answer to the problems that exist in relation to bovine TB, perhaps today we have begun, in a cross-party debate, to explore the solutions that are bound, ultimately, to be the ones that the Government will have to face up to.

As NFU Cymru state in their briefing to us, bovine TB is one of the biggest threats facing the Welsh cattle industry. They add that the historic failure of the Welsh Government to effectively tackle the disease in wildlife means that it continues to not only impact cattle keepers and their families, but also those further down the supply chain.

They state that bovine TB

‘is a complex disease that must be tackled in the round, including addressing wildlife disease reservoirs, if we are to stand any chance of eradicating the disease’.

We’ve heard already that new herd incidences recorded in Wales to June fell 16 per cent last year, but, in the equivalent period, the number of cattle slaughtered due to bovine TB rose 43 per cent. The Farmers’ Union of Wales added the statistic that the number of Welsh cattle slaughtered due to bovine TB in the 12 months to July 2016 represents a rise of more than 900 per cent over the last two decades. NFU Cymru state that the shelving of the Welsh Government’s vaccination programme due to a global vaccine shortage has created a policy vacuum, and the FUW president would like to remind all Assembly Members of how critical it is that Welsh Government implements a strategy that effectively tackles bovine TB in both cattle and wildlife, without which, they say, it’s hard to see how we can secure trade deals with European nations after Brexit—a point well-made by earlier speakers.

Speaking here seven years ago, I stated that the British Veterinary Association had said the

‘failure to tackle wildlife sources of TB infection has prolonged the presence of the disease in all affected species populations.’

Speaking here three years ago, I quoted the statement by the British Veterinary Association’s president at the annual Welsh dinner, which was that

‘we need all the tools in the toolbox to get on top of the disease, and that must include targeted, humane culling of badgers in certain circumstances’.

That was three years ago. A retired GP in Denbigh e-mailed, ‘Dead badgers are a common sight on the roadside. They remain for weeks. If these badgers carry TB, there must be a danger of transmitting the infection to cattle and other animals. Somebody should be responsible for removing dead badgers from the public highway.’

Now, the British Veterinary Association, or BVA, states that scientific evidence proves that badgers and cattle spread bTB to cattle. Their position supports a comprehensive approach to tackling bovine TB, based on the application of scientific research, coupled with the application of veterinary epidemiology. Control measures in cattle, they say, must occur alongside simultaneous and coordinated measures in badgers, other wildlife and susceptible farm species. They believe that slaughtering cattle that test positive for bovine TB is essential to control the disease in cattle, but has not been enough to get on top of the disease. Therefore they also believe that badger culling in a targeted, effective and humane manner is necessary in carefully selected areas. They state that vaccination of both cattle and badgers should play a central role in any bovine TB eradication policy, but its current role should not be overstated or exaggerated, adding that badger BCG vaccine is not proven to protect from infection, and has no impact on those infected prior to vaccination, and there is currently no licensed cattle vaccine, without which the UK could not trade live animals or animal products.

Will you take an intervention, Mark?

Last week—. I will on this one.

Thank you for taking an intervention. Is there any evidence at all that once badgers are culled that they’ve actually tested those that were infected and those who not infected by bTB? Because, if you’re talking about getting a rounded picture, that would also need to be done.

Again, unfortunately you weren’t able to attend the meeting last week, but the BVA representative explained the problems with testing as well, which need to be taken forward. So, when I hosted their Assembly briefing on bovine TB last week, I referred to their historic comments, but we heard at that meeting that the randomised badger culling trial report 2007 established that badgers contribute significantly to the disease in cattle, and that cattle-to-cattle transmission is also very important. Regarding cattle vaccination, we heard that BCG vaccine does not fully protect any species, that the differentiating infected from vaccinated animals test is not yet validated, and that this is currently illegal in the EU. We were reminded that the randomised badger culling trial 1998 to 2006 did find that proactive culling of badgers reduces the incidence of bovine TB in cattle herds. The BVA support badger culling as part of a comprehensive strategy, provided it’s targeted, effective and humane. Although, as we heard, they’ve withdrawn support for the use of controlled shooting, they’ve called for the wider roll-out of culling, using cage-trapping and shooting only in carefully selected areas. So, the Welsh Government must take decisive action to tackle bovine TB, working with the British Veterinary Association to deliver the comprehensive and scientific bovine TB strategy that they are calling for alongside the industry and many in the wider scientific community. Thank you.

We know the destructive impact that TB is having economically on farm families and businesses and on communities. It’s also having a detrimental emotional effect on individuals in destroying generations of work in developing pedigree and quality stock. I don’t need to paint that picture, but I am concerned sometimes that we are desensitised, particularly if we as politicians aren’t close to some of these communities and individuals who are affected.

As someone who lives on a family farm—and I should declare an interest here, of course, because my wife is a partner in a farm business—seeing friends and neighbours and their farms going down with TB—it is as horrific an experience for them today as it has ever been. The historic failure of the Welsh Government to tackle this disease effectively does mean, of course, that the pain and heartbreak will continue in communities the length and breadth of Wales.

The latest statistics, to be honest, are no comfort to me. Yes, we’ve seen a reduction in the number of herds infected, but, of course, there are 30 per cent fewer herds in comparison to the situation 10 years ago. That tells its own story, in my view. Today, 5.6 per cent of herds are under restrictions as compared to 3.8 per cent in 2006, as was mentioned earlier. And, of course, there is the significant increase that we have heard about in the number of cattle that are culled—43 per cent nationally over a period of 12 months. We’ve heard reference to Clwyd, the area where I live—an increase of 129 per cent in the cattle that are culled. Now, of course, people will say, ‘Well, we’re testing more’. Well, yes, we are testing 5 per cent more in Clwyd; 129 per cent more cattle, though, are culled.

The skin test that is used to find TB has been successful in helping to control and eradicate the disease from a number of countries over the past 50 years. Interestingly, it only fails where the disease exists in wildlife. In Britain, the test was very successful in the 1950s and 1960s, apart from in those areas where there was a high number of badgers.

We know of the situation in England—there was a decline of 53 per cent in the new cases of infected herds in the six months after the completion of the proactive badger culling trials in England. There’s been a decline of between 60 per cent and 96 per cent in the rate that herds were confirmed to have been under restrictions following badger culls in the Republic of Ireland.

We have heard of concerns about Wales’s trading relationship with the rest of the world. Well, Australia and New Zealand actually eradicated TB successfully because of the specific threat of trade restrictions on their agricultural produce as a result of high levels of infection. Central to that success, of course, was controlling the disease in wildlife.

I have to say that hearing Carwyn Jones in this Chamber last week saying in quite a blasé manner that there wasn’t a real threat to Welsh exports and trade because of TB—well, that was a real concern for me and it should be a cause of concern for each and every one of us. Don’t expect other nations to make it easy for us; the stakes are higher now than they have ever been. We are duty bound to use all tools possible to tackle TB more effectively.

What are the experts saying? We as politicians often like to say when we discuss health policy, ‘Well, it’s important that we listen to the voice of the doctors and nurses’. When we discuss education, ‘Well, it’s important that we listen to our teachers.’ The Cabinet Secretary for Education said that just an hour and a half ago when we were discussing the reduction in class sizes, although the OECD, the academics and research organisations say differently—’No, it’s important that we listen to the voice of teachers and parents’. Yes, fine, that’s perhaps how it should be. What, then, about the workers in the front line in the battle against bovine TB? What do they tell us? Well, ask the vets, ask the BVA, the association representing British vets—they are in favour of badger culling as part of a comprehensive eradication strategy, and that is exactly what is needed in my view too. The time has come for the Government here to be brave and to face the reality once and for all. We need a badger cull scheme as part of the solution to TB in Wales, and we need it now.

I congratulate Simon Thomas on getting this debate and on proposing his motion without, I believe, mentioning badgers, which I think we all knew were the substance of the debate to come. I find it unusual speaking at the moment because I don’t have a strong view for or against badger culling as a potential solution or at least way to improve, mitigate, the situation of bovine TB. I did vote against the culling that took place in Somerset and Gloucestershire, but for me it was a very finely balanced issue, hearing both from farmers who were affected and many who were concerned about the potential cruelty and a desire to protect badgers who wrote on the other side of the debate. I think at that point, though, the prospect of vaccination as an alternative solution was—there was, I think, perhaps greater optimism around that than there is now some years later.

As chairman of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee, this is in the purview of the committee and we as committee members must decide how much of our time we wish to invest in understanding this issue better and trying to take the situation forward.

I complement Simon Thomas on the wording of his motion. I believe the people who believe vaccination may still be a realistic solution or have other ideas as to how bovine TB could be dealt with may perhaps find themselves able to support this motion. But what I would ask is, whatever Members are, I just hope we would try not to become overly entrenched in a position without focusing and really trying to understand new evidence that may come forward. We’ve heard, I think, of the Krebs study that took place historically, and some other more recent studies people referred to, as perhaps having a different implication. But also, on the farmers’ side, I can see the pain this issue causes them, but I also fear that, for some, the idea of culling badgers will be a solution, if not a silver bullet, I think a great deal of belief is invested in, whereas, even if we were to go down the route of really significant and continual badger culling, it is not clear to me, at least, how much effect that would have on the problem, even if it were to have some, and I continue to study the evidence on either side of this.

I look very much to hearing what the Cabinet Secretary has to say to us in two or three weeks’ time in her statement. I also look forward to the full report on the culling in Somerset and in Gloucestershire, which I’m told will be available later this autumn. Even if the scientific basis of that culling is not as strong as we might want in terms of a comparison, as there have been difficulties with how it’s been carried out, I do hope it will take the debate forward and I do hope Members will remain engaged with this as we on our committee do what we can to take the issue forward. I look forward, I hope, to this continuing to be discussed in this Chamber so we can give some report and do the right thing, as well as we can, by the farmers as well as for the protection of wildlife and the prevention of cruelty of all kinds. Thank you.

I wanted to focus my contribution today on the personal distress that is caused to farming businesses and farming families. I think farming businesses are unique in the fact that the farmer does not go to work at eight and come back at six. The whole family is part of the business, including children, and, when there’s an issue on farm, that affects the whole family.

Presiding Officer, I had a farmer contact my office last week and speak to my office manager and the farmer was in tears. It was an emotional conversation with my office manager, so much it affected my office manager as well.

I thought what I would like to do today is to read an extract of a letter that she sent me, which will probably take up most of the time I have. But I thought it was a powerful extract. It says, and I quote:

‘We are a small farm and have a closed herd which is sadly losing its animals at a rapid pace due to the spread of Bovine TB. We have not bought any cattle for 65 years and have no adjoining neighbours with cattle so the spread cannot be from cattle to cattle.

‘We had our first TB outbreak six years ago, and we hoped we would never have to go through this devastation again. After a routine test, we had reactors which sadly had to be slaughtered; these were heavily in calf cows, but under animal welfare regulations they cannot travel if it’s less than 28 days before they are due to calve so they are subjected to on farm slaughter. However, the baby calf will slowly suffocate inside the womb—a cruel barbaric way to die, and the most emotional event anyone could witness.

‘The same on farm slaughter is carried out if the cow has given birth to her new baby calf within the last 7 days. The TB reactor cow will be shot, leaving behind her new-born baby calf who will then be an orphan.

‘Again, this is a really devastatingly emotional experience especially when you are the person that has reared that cow from birth, and has also helped her previous generations into the world. Although we don’t seem to be getting rid of the disease, it’s like we are going round and round in circles but not dealing with the prevention of TB.

‘In England, when a cow is TB tested and the calf is due to calve within 28 days, the cow is allowed to stay on the farm in isolation, the calf will be naturally born and the mother is removed after 7 days of giving birth.

‘And in Ireland, if a herd has TB reactors, a 3 kilometre radius to that farm will have all the badgers culled. Why doesn’t the Welsh Government learn from experience from neighbouring countries which show that a two pronged approach is necessary to deal with the disease in wildlife for the successful eradication of Bovine TB.’

Now, for me, I just think that, reading that, it’s not just the unions and other organisations, but this is a real-life experience of a farmer who has suffered this cruel, cruel disease. Farmers don’t seek to see wildlife culled for the sake of it, but what we need is an option that takes into account all options to eradicate this cruel, cruel disease. I would just simply say to the Cabinet Secretary: please don’t turn your back on Welsh agriculture and Welsh families. I look forward to a positive contribution from the Cabinet Secretary when she responds.

I’d like to thank Simon Thomas, Paul Davies, Neil Hamilton and Llyr Gruffydd for putting this motion before us today. I agree that we need to tackle bovine TB by committing to use the most effective measures to control and eradicate the disease. I do not agree that culling the badger population is the most effective measure to tackle bovine TB. In fact, all the scientific evidence shows that most disease transmission is from cattle to cattle, and killing badgers will not eradicate herd-to-herd transmission.

An independent scientifically robust trial of badger culling was undertaken, which took nearly a decade and cost approximately £50 million pounds, and the lives of 11,000 badgers. Following the trial, the independent scientific group concluded badger culling can make no meaningful contribution to cattle TB control in Britain.

In fact, the evidence suggests that, unless we completely eradicate badgers from Britain, culls can actually lead to an increase in TB infection rates. This is because the territorial nature of badgers stops free-ranging diseased badgers from roaming throughout the countryside. Do those who propose a cull really want to hunt badgers to extinction? Must we destroy one of Britain’s most iconic species, protected by their own Act of Parliament, because it is cheaper to kill them rather than vaccinate them as well as the cattle?

For those who favour a cull, could you explain how you would kill badgers humanely? During the 2013 cull trials, around a quarter of badgers were still alive five minutes after being shot. This led the British Veterinary Association to call for controlled shooting to be abandoned as a culling method. Not only is a cull inhumane; it’s also ineffective. There are three active cull zones in England, and all three have seen an increase in bovine TB. Scotland is free of TB, yet they have a large badger population. Here in Wales, we have seen a reduction in bovine TB without killing badgers, while in the Republic of Ireland, they’ve been killing badgers for 30 years without having any noticeable effect on TB. They now want to extend the cull to include deer.

To conclude, the most effective measures to control and eradicate the disease are increased biosecurity and vaccination, and not wiping out the entire badger population in the UK. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs—Lesley Griffiths.

Diolch, Presiding Officer. As Members will have seen from the latest business statement, I will be making an oral statement on a refreshed approach to TB eradication on 18 October. Therefore, I don’t intend to go into too much detail today. However, since I became the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs in May, I have made very clear my intention to refresh the TB programme in Wales, to ensure it’s robust and fit for purpose, and I will certainly not turn my back on the extremely important Welsh agriculture sector.

I support the motion proposed today, and believe the only way to tackle this issue is to use a combination of the most appropriate and effective measures, proportionate to the different risk areas in Wales. All measures applied must be supported by firm evidence and veterinary risk assessment, focusing on all routes of transmission, not just transmission from wildlife reservoirs, which seems to receive all the attention. Responding sensibly to the levels of disease in different parts of Wales is a very important step towards TB eradication. Since I came into this portfolio in May, I’ve spoken to a significant number of farmers, the farming unions, vets and other industry bodies across Wales at the agricultural shows and on individual farm visits. I would like to reassure everyone that I am listening to all concerns raised with me, and, of course, my statement next month will provide more detail on how I intend to develop our TB eradication programme going forward.

I would like to highlight that new TB incidence consistently fell in Wales from late 2012 to mid-2014, and, following a plateau, subsequently turned downwards again. There was a 29 per cent fall in the number of new TB breakdowns between 2009 and 2015, and the latest figures show the trend is continuing in the right direction, with a 16 per cent fall in the 12 months to June 2016. This means, in comparison to the same period last year, 66 fewer herds are under restrictions because of a TB incident in Wales.

The TB picture across Wales is a complex one. I am aware of the increased interest in the number of cattle slaughtered over the latest period by many in this Chamber and the industry itself. However, I would like to reassure you that this does not mean the disease is on the rise: 9,476 cattle were slaughtered for TB control in the 12 months to June of this year, which is an increase of 43 per cent compared with the previous 12 months, however the recent rising trend in animals slaughtered is because of increased numbers of reactors in established breakdowns, and not new incidents. Much of this is due to better targeting of the testing and the use of severe interpretation to increase the sensitivity, coupled with the use of the gamma interferon blood test within our most chronically affected herds.

In terms of wildlife, I agree that an effective programme needs to target all transmission routes if there is robust evidence to support that intervention. My officials are engaging with vets and wildlife experts to develop ways to break the transmission cycle in chronic herd breakdowns, where it can be demonstrated badgers are contributing to the problem. We are currently running a dead badger survey to help us understand the true level of disease in the badger population in Wales. This will help us develop policy at both local and national levels where the disease is endemic. The survey is not yet complete. However, to give you an indication of the findings to date, of the 584 carcasses collected so far, 40 were infected, which is less than 7 per cent, although this level does vary across the country. In response to a point that somebody raised before, DEFRA do not test culled badgers in England.

Would the Cabinet Secretary give way?

Yes.

I wonder whether the Cabinet Secretary has had any discussions with her English Minister counterpart, because it seems to me, whether it’s the dead badger survey or the other scientific monitoring that’s going on, it’s exactly what should be going on in England so that we can really test what is happening in different countries. It’s a shame that that isn’t being followed through on the other side of the border at the moment, because it could provide us with valuable information as well.

I haven’t had specific discussions with my counterpart, but my officials work very closely, particularly, as you’ll be aware, the chief veterinary officers—the four of them across the UK—work incredibly closely together.

We are now in a position to identify and agree three categories of TB areas across Wales, based on incident levels. This will allow us to tailor and implement different measures and approaches that are proportionate and that reflect the varying disease level and risks across Wales.

It is crucial that we get these measures right in order to protect areas with low levels of disease and drive down incidence in areas where the disease has become endemic. I will be saying more about this next month in my oral statement.

Would the Minister give way?

Yes.

I’m grateful to the Minister for giving way at that point. I welcome what she’s said. I understand that she’s going to make an oral statement, and so the detail is not here, but, of course, one part of the motion that she has accepted precisely addresses what she’s just said about the commensurate approach in different areas of Wales. Can she confirm, if possible, today, however, that, whatever happens in the wildlife sector, at the moment, the Welsh Government does not have access to a vaccine? Is that still the case for the foreseeable future?

In relation to the vaccination, I was going to say, in response to something that Neil Hamilton said, just because we don’t have a vaccine supply, it doesn’t mean that we don’t have a policy—of course we have a policy and the majority of that, rightly so, is around cattle control measures. I don’t know what crystal ball Neil Hamilton has, but he came up with the date of 2023 and that we won’t be able to get access to vaccination until that time. We know we won’t get it next year, but we don’t have a date as to when we will get that vaccine.

So, we continue to build on the programme, which, as I have highlighted, has seen a reduction in incidence and, more importantly, a reduction in the number of farms under restrictions. However, I do appreciate that we can learn valuable lessons from other countries fighting TB. And, as I said in response to Huw Irranca-Davies, my officials do have very close working relationships with their counterparts in other parts of the UK, and also with colleagues right across the world, including in countries such as New Zealand, to make the best use of the new and innovative approaches to the issue.

I firmly believe that, in Wales, we are leading the way in many aspects and that our approach to date has been proportionate and is striking a good balance between business continuity and disease eradication.

So, in conclusion, Presiding Officer, I want no-one to make any mistake—that TB eradication will rely on the industry, the veterinary profession and Government working and sharing that burden together. I believe that the new measures that I will be announcing next month will put us in a stronger position going forward and will ensure that we continue to make progress towards a TB-free Wales. Diolch.

I call on Paul Davies to respond to the debate.

Diolch, Lywydd. I am pleased to close this important debate. I should state from the outset that my parents-in-law’s farm has been affected by bovine TB over the last 15 years and I know, from personal experience, how devastating it is, emotionally and financially.

Today’s debate has been about getting the message across to the Welsh Government that cattle measures and cattle restrictions alone will not eradicate this awful disease. It will need a holistic approach, which includes using all the tools in the box to eliminate bovine TB in cattle and in our wildlife population. It’s quite clear that we need far more comprehensive action to be taken by the Welsh Government on this issue.

Could I thank all Members who have taken part in this debate? It’s been a very good debate and I know that there are significant differences in how we should go about tackling this disease, but I know that all Members want to see bovine TB eradicated from our communities.

Simon Thomas opened the debate and set the scene by providing an overview of bovine TB, quoting some of the devastating statistics involved with this disease and the consequences of this disease on farming families and how we need to deal with this disease effectively and in a far more comprehensive way.

He’s absolutely right that Welsh farmers need and deserve more support and how a much more comprehensive package must now be delivered to support our farming industry. He also referred to the importance of tackling bovine TB in the context of Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union, and he is right to say that this follows deep concerns from the farming unions, which are right to say that the current disease status has the potential to be a challenging negotiation tool, especially given the vacuum created by post-vaccination failure. The inability of the Welsh Government to address this issue will certainly not make our produce any more attractive to other countries and could seriously damage any trade negotiations. I appreciate that the Cabinet Secretary has only been in her role for the last few months, but her engagements over the summer with the industry must have emphasised the importance of this matter to our future farming industry and our economy. The Welsh Government wants to increase Welsh food and drink sales by 30 per cent to £7 billion, which is a great aim. However, failing to deal with issues such as bovine TB will harm the chances of reaching that target and harm our ability to sell to new markets.

Now, Joyce Watson, in her contribution, also voiced her opposition to a cull of wildlife and a cull of badgers and said that other policies must be pursued to tackle this disease. Whilst I very much respect her view, she will not be surprised to hear that we’ll have to agree to disagree on how best to go about eradicating bovine TB. She also mentioned that we need to improve the test, but in the BVA briefing last week, it was made clear that the test is appropriate and that it has been used in countries where the incidence of bovine TB has been reduced dramatically. So, the test is fine. What we need is a more comprehensive approach.

I welcome Neil Hamilton’s contribution to this debate and his broad support for more comprehensive action to tackle bovine TB. He also quoted some of the devastating statistics this disease is having on our farming communities.

Mark Isherwood raised the BVA briefing and their evidence, which I’ve also found very informative as well. And it’s reinforced, I think, the support for more action from the veterinary industry.

Llyr Gruffydd reiterated the importance of tackling bovine TB and the importance of dealing with this matter, particularly given the huge impact this is having on farming families. He also referred to the failure of successive Welsh Governments in dealing with this issue. He was also right in saying how important it is that the Welsh Government listen to the experts, and, of course, the experts in this case are the BVA, the veterinary association, and the farming unions.

In his contribution, Mark Reckless said we shouldn’t be overtly entrenched in our views, and that’s why it is important to tackle this disease holistically and that’s why it’s important to use all the tools available to the Welsh Government.

Russell George in his contribution talked about the emotional impact that this disease is having on farmers. And he, of course, quoted his constituents and the devastating impact this is having on them.

Caroline Jones talked about the importance of tackling bovine TB, and concentrated her remarks on badger culling.

I listened very carefully to the Cabinet Secretary’s response, and I’m pleased that she did say that we have to deal with the disease in cattle and in the wildlife population. However, since the Assembly election, there has been a vacuum, I think, in Welsh Government policy on this matter, with no clear direction on how the Government intends to tackle bovine TB. I hope, therefore, that the Cabinet Secretary will now reflect on Members’ contributions today and actually deliver a package of support for Welsh farmers that deals with this disease once and for all. So, I urge Members to actually vote for this motion this afternoon.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? As there is no objection, the motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.