3. What assessment has the First Minister made of lobbying rules which apply in other UK governments? OAQ(5)0238(FM)

Well, the standards commissioner is undertaking initial work, discussing with other UK Parliaments their arrangements and how they are working in practice, and we do stand ready to respond positively in the light of the commissioner's recommendations.

Okay. Thank you, First Minister, for that. I was in the short debate we had just before recess where this was discussed, and I was glad to hear that the standards commissioner is indeed looking at this. Could I just have a guarantee from you, First Minister, that if Gerard Elias decides that action is needed, you will take that action and not kick it into the long grass?

Well, the commissioner has previously said, of course, that he doesn't see this as having been a problem in the past. It's the standards committee, of course, that will need to look at this, and what lessons there are for the Assembly, we will take on board as a Government.

How companies and organisations engage with the Welsh Government, of course, and the transparency of those arrangements, is of course very important, but your own website states:

‘We aim to be open and responsive to the needs of citizens and communities’.

With this in mind, what more do you think the Welsh Government can do, particularly with its consultations, to reach a wider and deeper range of people, so that the voices of organisations that can afford communications officers or to use public affairs companies are better balanced by interested voices from the general population?

It's a fair point, and one of the things we look to do is to consult as widely as possible, online, of course, and through paper consultations. Inevitably, there is a need for information to be dissipated in communities by some individuals within communities, but, clearly, we want to make sure that consultations are as wide-ranging as they possibly can be.

First Minister, on 12 July, you said on the record that

‘lobbyists don’t have access to Welsh Ministers.’

Are you aware that on 27 October, your Minister for finance was pictured on Twitter attending an event with a commercial lobbyist? Are you aware that, tomorrow, on 2 October, the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children is a keynote speaker at a commercial lobbyist event? So, maybe you can explain to the public and this Chamber the contradiction between what you say here, that they don't have access, and what actually is the reality, because we all know they do? Can you explain the contradiction, please?

Yes, easily. I mean, Ministers do speak at events that are organised by organisations, but Ministers do not have formal meetings with lobbyists. That is it; that is the reality of the situation. If he is saying that no Minister should ever meet, either formally or informally, with anybody who is remotely connected to a lobbying organisation, that's just impractical, given the size of Wales. It’s impractical for members of his own party. The last thing I'd suggest to Members in this Chamber is to say to Members that they should never, under any circumstances, meet anybody connected with a lobbying company. Clearly, that's not practical. But what we do not do is meet formally with lobbying companies if they seek meetings with Ministers. Those meetings never happen on a formal basis.