Statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children on International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women—I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, Carl Sargeant.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. This Friday is the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women. When the previous Welsh Labour Government took the Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act through the Assembly in 2015, we were clear on our aims to improve prevention, protection and support for victims and survivors. Since then we have appointed a national adviser, Rhian Bowen-Davies; published statutory guidance on the national training framework; implemented the national training framework and ‘ask and act’; refreshed the national advisory group and governance mechanisms; conducted survivor consultation through Welsh Women’s Aid and published the resulting report, ‘Are you listening and am I being heard?’—a report on the recommendations of survivors of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence in Wales; and published our first national strategy.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

But, Llywydd, there is much more to do. In the next 18 months we have plans to work with the sector and victims and survivors to develop a detailed delivery plan; support our local government and health board colleagues who are developing their local strategies; publish further national guidance on commissioning, multi-agency collaboration and the whole-education approach; work with the sector and my ministerial advisory group to make sure services’ funding is more sustainable; and develop a survivor engagement framework.

Llywydd, in Wales, like the rest of the world, women and girls are disproportionately affected by all forms of violence. Evidence suggests that women are more likely to experience gender-based violence, and, as such, we acknowledge that violence against women is the most prevalent form of gender-based violence. Therefore, the policy and legislative proposals set out in the Act impact predominantly on women and girls. There are Members in the Chamber who champion male victims of domestic abuse and sexual violence, and say that services must support male victims too. These Members are absolutely correct and I applaud them. But there are also Members in this Chamber who champion male victims at the expense of female victims, and make the issue of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence into some kind of sinister competition. These Members are at best, either disingenuous or ill-informed.

To really help us prevent violence against women in the future, we have to focus on informing children, to make sure they understand what constitutes a healthy relationship and how to recognise the symptoms of unhealthy relationships. So far, we have published a ‘Good Practice Guide: A Whole Education Approach to Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence in Wales', produced by Welsh Women’s Aid, and awareness-raising guidance for school governors published in March 2016. We have also held a national education conference.

Statutory guidance on education will make local authorities designate a member of staff for the purpose of championing violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence matters in schools and other settings. We continue to fund Hafan Cymru’s Spectrum project, which works in primary and secondary schools across Wales to teach children about healthy relationships, abuse and its consequences and where to seek help. We also fund Welsh Women’s Aid’s Children Matter project in support of the prevention element of the Act. The project supports local services across Wales to challenge gender inequality experienced by children and young people, and to improve safety. Llywydd, we’ve produced several high-profile campaigns to raise awareness and change attitudes. This includes the award-winning Cross the Line campaign, which deals with emotional abuse.

Currently, we are urging everyone to make a stand against violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. Continuing our publicity campaigns to raise awareness of these issues is a key component of our action to change attitudes and challenge behaviour.

Despite a significant amount of work in Wales by the Welsh Government and partners over the last few years, we know that many are still at risk of, or experiencing violence or abuse. And 1.4 million women and 700,000 men aged between 16 and 59 report experiencing incidents of domestic abuse in England and Wales. One in 5 women aged 16 to 59 have experienced some form of sexual violence since the age of 16. In 2009-10, 54 per cent of female victims aged 16 or over had been killed by their partner, ex-partner or lover, compared to 5 per cent of male victims. In 2011, an estimated 137,000 girls and women were living with consequences of female genital mutilation in the UK. It is estimated that there are 140 victims of FGM a year in Wales.

It serves a purpose to talk about legislation, statistics and strategies. It is important that we all share an understanding of the scale of the problems we face and how we are going to tackle them together. But this can only tell us so much. Llywydd, what really motivates me to stay focused on the difficult task of eradicating violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence is the vision of our country if we don’t, and the awful and upsetting stories that victims and survivors tell me about their experiences. I want to briefly read some words of a domestic abuse survivor:

‘I’ve moved from my family home after a lot of sexual and financial abuse. I didn’t know a husband could rape you. He told me I don’t have any rights to say no, he’s my husband and he can do what he wanted. It wasn’t until I spoke with women’s aid that I knew what rights I had and I now know what rape means.’

I, like many, am a White Ribbon ambassador, and have been for many years. I’ve always been passionate about tackling violence against women. With the high incidence of these issues, it is likely that we all know someone who has been affected by violence against women, domestic abuse or sexual violence. Llywydd, it’s quite possible that 10 to 15 of the Assembly Members in this room have been directly affected by those issues. Any issue that affects a quarter of our population has to be a high priority for a Government to take action. And that’s why we have to keep on working together to tackle these problems that continue to blight our society.

Thank you for your statement, ahead of Friday’s International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, and also for your comments at today’s White Ribbon Day event, championing the National Federation of Women’s Institutes Wales’s Not in My Name campaign to end violence against women, where a domestic abuse survivor ended her brave and moving contribution by asking all of us to never forget what love is and what it is not.

After Bethan Jenkins and I wrote to you as co-chairs of the cross-party group on violence against women and children about the group’s concerns regarding the draft national strategy on violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence—a framework for delivery 2016-21, and your letter in response, Welsh Women’s Aid has, overall, welcomed the final strategy, and especially that it now includes the UN definition of violence against women. But they’re now hoping to see the principles and priorities outlined in the strategy built into practice through an effective delivery plan that is co-produced and accompanied by sufficient resources to ensure it’s achievable. They’re hoping that the violence against women sector will be consulted on the development of the plan, but have not yet had a time frame and plan on how and when this will be done.

While your statement, in large part, answers that, you state that ‘in the next 18 months’ you have plans to

‘Work with the sector…to develop a detailed delivery plan’.

So, I wonder if you can be more precise. What is the time frame for the delivery plan, not just a consultation, but for it to be delivered and put in place? How will you ensure that it is co-produced—in this case, I’m referring to the words they’ve used; this isn’t me banging on about a term for its own sake—with the violence against women sector and victims and survivors themselves?

The Act, when it was merely a Bill—the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence Bill—when debated here, as you know, led to some close games—well, not games, serious games, at the end, of chicken, engaging the Government to strengthen its commitments in practice to healthy relationships education. I referred in the Chamber to having been out with Hafan Cymru’s Spectrum project, teaching children and young people about healthy relationships, abuse and its consequences, and where to seek help. I welcome your acknowledgement and reference to that particular project, alongside Welsh Women’s Aid’s Children Matter project in your statement.

You state:

‘Statutory guidance on education will make Local Authorities designate a member of staff for the purpose of championing violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence matters in schools and other settings.’

However, when Peter Black, Jocelyn Davies and I campaigned together to have this matter strengthened, before the Act was passed, the then Minister’s correspondence stated that statutory guidance would provide or include provisions for approaches such as how schools could drive forward a whole-school approach by appointing a staff member, pupil and governor in these specific roles. He also said that he would involve stakeholders from the violence against women sector in developing the Donaldson proposals to ensure that healthy relationship education is developed within the curriculum. So, I wonder if you could comment, both in the context of a broader appointment of pupils and governors, but also how, more than just having a staff designated member, this is going to be incorporated into the curriculum, based on the Donaldson recommendations and proposals.

The NSPCC report ‘How safe are our children? 2016’ reports a 26 per cent increase in the number of recorded sexual offences against children under 16 in Wales in the past year. Of course, some of that could just be better reporting. Their Stop it Now! presentation recently to the cross-party group on child sexual abuse stated that we should be focusing our efforts on ensuring that child sexual abuse is prevented before it occurs, before people at risk of abusing become offenders, and before potential victims become actual victims, where, to date, the response has focused largely on bringing perpetrators to justice and providing some children with therapy and support alone. So, how do you respond to their call for a comprehensive child sexual abuse prevention strategy for Wales?

There’s now a significant opportunity for Wales, given the legislative base we now have domestically, to use its learning from this to support the elimination of violence against women around the world, in particular, through the Wales for Africa programme. Indeed, in passing the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, Wales has committed itself to being a globally responsible nation. How do you respond, therefore, to the call for a clear commitment from the Welsh Government to working to tackle this challenge right across the world, in order to show that Wales is serious about being a globally responsible nation?

My final point and question relates to the Atal y Fro Families Together project, funded by the sustainable social services third sector grant. This provides support for all aspects of a family’s needs, including experiencing domestic abuse, and it includes their own programme for mainly pre-custodial male perpetrators of domestic violence. They’re also developing pilot projects for women and adolescent perpetrators. So, how do you respond to the statement I believe made to them by the Welsh Government’s violence against women unit that the Welsh Government is now developing guidance on perpetrators, and basically where you are up to with that in order to engage not just excellent projects such as this but the only accredited programme in Wales—the programme they’re using—which is the Relate Choose 2 Change programme, which was heavily promoted by me as the legislation went through, but sadly at that stage not incorporated into the legislation? Thank you.

I thank the Member for his broad support and questions this afternoon. I think the change in Governments, or the election of the Government, was helpful in terms of that being a time for pause and to think about the implementation of the Act and how we could generate a more holistic approach to the delivery model of this. When I came into post I committed to talking with the sector, and more importantly, talking to victors or survivors of domestic violence situations. I’ve now refreshed the advisory group, which has nearly doubled in size, actually, but with expertise from the whole sector, from perpetrators’ intervention programmes to young people, the NSPCC, to male victims and many other experts in the field. So, my engagement process is very robust and I’m hopeful that—. There are two tasks I’ve set them to start with. One is about a sustainable financing model. So, we’ll look at the long term for the services that are required. And one is about what services are required. So, I’m looking at a whole pathway about how we fund that and look at who delivers what and where. I’m hopeful that that will come back, focusing predominantly on people’s experiences, whether that will be through the criminal justice system or through the courts system or local authority and social services, making sure we fully understand how that approach is being taken forward.

With regard to healthy relationships, I agree with the Member; I think, actually, we have to start talking to younger people about the acceptance of what is acceptable and what is not in terms of a healthy relationship and consenting. And I have spoken to Kirsty Williams on this matter, indeed, about the well-being of young people in a general sense, and it’s something that we'll follow up with regard to the curriculum and other aspects of this.

I'm sympathetic to the approach that the previous Minister had mentioned, about the governor training and young persons being involved in that process as well. If that’s the right thing to do, maybe that’s what we should do, and I don’t think you’ll find much pushback from us in terms of making sure that we can create the right outcome from the Act with good intentions.

Indeed, the issue the Member raises around CSE directly links back into the work we started around adverse childhood experiences and knowing full well that one of the ACEs around domestic violence has a massive impact for young people in the longer term. In fact, I have some concern that, actually, when we focus on domestic violence situations, sometimes a younger person within the family setting is secondary, and, actually, we should be thinking about that as a family-based approach to delivery.

I'm familiar with the Atal y Fro project in Barry. I've been there with the local Member, Jane Hutt—many years ago—and I understand the great work that they do, particularly around perpetrator programmes. We do also have working with the positive partnership approach that we have in place with other organisations, and South Wales Police have got a model they’re using from Essex, actually. They're using it as a perpetrator programme in the Swansea area, I think, and we’re just learning from that, too. So, it’s about making sure that we join up the approach of all agencies and, as I said earlier on, making sure we can bring our expertise together, our finances together, if that's the right thing to do, too, to make sure the implementation of the Act is successful with the great support that we have in the majority of his Chamber.

The national hotline service, Live Fear Free, is located in my constituency as it happens, and yesterday I had an opportunity to visit this important resource. And by the way, this is an example of a bilingual service that serves the whole of Wales from beyond Cardiff, in a very successful way, and the service has won a number of notable awards.

Ninety-six per cent of those who phone the hotline are women. And that’s not to say that men don’t also suffer from sexual violence, of course, or abuse, and that needs to be addressed, but we are seeing the degrading of women being normalised recently. Nigel Farage described the US President-elect’s recent comments, when he was boasting that he took sexual advantage of women, as ‘alpha male boasting’. These are entirely disgraceful comments, I think, and UKIP in Wales should be ashamed that such a thing was said and they should condemn that kind of language. Do you agree that the anti-women misogynistic environment is militating against the reduction of violence against women, domestic violence and sexual violence, and that the Government therefore, and everyone else, need to redouble their efforts in the current climate?

I turn to the national strategy that has been published and, like Mark Isherwood, I have a number of questions about it. Are you convinced that the need to educate our children and young people on healthy relationships is truly taking root, and that it is being given due attention as the new school curriculum is being implemented? There is a wonderful opportunity through the new curriculum, and it’s very important that we get this right, or that change won’t happen unless we educate our young people on healthy relationships in our schools.

In terms of the local strategies that are being developed, are you confident that these are being developed in a robust and consistent manner across local authorities? You’ve mentioned the delivery framework, but when exactly will that be done? What’s the deadline for the publication of the delivery framework that will outline how the Welsh Government will contribute to the objectives of the strategy, and what will the legal status of the delivery framework be? And when will the national indicators be put in place? There are a number of questions arising from the strategy, but I am pleased to see that progress has been made since the draft strategy that we saw as the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee recently. But there is a great deal of work still to be done, and it needs to be done as a matter of urgency.

Plaid Cymru has been innovative in developing policies in the Assembly in this area, and we’ve also succeeded in changing the law on stalking, which was led by Elfyn Llwyd in Westminster. Our commitment as a party is entirely firm here, and let no-one doubt that commitment. I too, along with many of my fellow Members here, am a White Ribbon champion.

I thank the Member for her continued commitment. I visited the Live Fear Free helpline too in Bangor—I think the area is—in north Wales, and they’ve got some great staff there who are very committed to supporting very vulnerable individuals as they ring the helpline. I pay tribute to the work that they do. Indeed, I think the Member and other Members were at the relaunch of the scheme only the other week.

She’s absolutely right: redoubling the efforts of all Members is something that we should do. We should never forget that this is a day on Friday that we have in the diary to recognise these issues, but it should be the norm. It should be a process where it’s built into the system as opposed to a one-off addition. It’s the right thing to do for the right reasons.

In terms of specifics around the strategy, I’m grateful for her comments on the strategy. The development of the draft through to the final version was done working with my advisor and also with the sector to try and create a document that everybody was reasonably content with. For me, that was a legislative process, and there was a deadline when we had to produce that. I think I mentioned in committee, actually, it was quite challenging to deliver that strategy, but the most important thing is the delivery framework. I apologise to Mark Isherwood that I didn’t give him the framework timescale. I’m really relaxed about this, because I think it needs to be done, but done properly. I’ve asked part of the team in the advisory group to give me advice on this.

So, I’m not an expert in this field, and my officials have some quality skills around this, but actually real people experiencing this have the real expertise. We’ve got to buy that in to understand what these services are required for, and that’s how we’ll develop the framework with them, in the co-production way that the Member brings to the Chamber on a regular basis. But I will give a commitment to the Chamber to update Members on that process as we move forward. I don’t want it to be a prolonged one, but I want to make sure that it’s right.

I’m grateful to Elfyn Llwyd regarding the issues of the legislation around stalking. Absolutely, he was right to do that, and I’m very supportive of that principle. We should take away party politics around this and actually do the right thing for the right reasons. Indeed, the issue around coercive control is something that we also should be very aware of, and make sure that we all, collectively, if we have an issue with that, are upfront about that process and make sure we report it if that’s what we believe is happening. But I’m grateful again for the Member’s commitment during this debate today.

Eliminating violence against women and children is everybody’s business. It’s fair to say, Cabinet Secretary, that you have made it your business. New Members may not be aware of how much you did as a Minister in previous Assemblies, and you have driven forward policies and strategies and legislation. So, I wanted to recognise you here again and your absolute commitment.

There are six objectives from the strategy that have a particular focus for delivery by the end of this Assembly term. But the most important one for me is changing attitudes, and that is why I say that it is everybody’s business. I was pleased, for the fifth year running, to join the Women’s Institute on an event this afternoon that did just that, and where there were large numbers of young individuals present who want to change minds and attitudes for their generation, and I am hopeful for the generation behind that.

At the rise of the Assembly today I invite everybody here to join me in a candlelit vigil that will be held outside the Senedd building. That vigil will be there to commemorate and remember the lives of those who have been lost. I don’t know how many people know, but in the first three months—12 weeks—of 2015, 26 women were murdered either by their husbands or partners or ex-husbands or ex-partners. That is more than two women every single week. They were wives, they were daughters, they were aunts, they were grandmothers, but what they were most of all were mothers—mothers of children who have been left behind, who are absolutely devastated and wondering how to cope, and families wondering how they’re going to carry on.

So, I hope, Cabinet Secretary, that the social services and well-being Act, which includes provision to help children and adults who need care and support, does deliver for those families who are left to pick up the pieces of their shattered lives.

Joyce Watson, thank you for your kind comments, but can I say that I’m just the Minister, the Cabinet Secretary now, who has been allowed to enable the opportunity to change legislation and change the messaging? I take that very seriously, but it is people like you and many others in this Chamber too, and externally, many organisations, that have championed and continue to champion, both here and across the world, indeed, your commitment to that. Mark Isherwood was right in his contribution about being globally responsible. Joyce Watson has a lot to answer for in terms of taking the message beyond our borders about the work that we’re doing here and taking the excellent piece of legislation and sharing that with others.

The Member raises some very pertinent facts that are terribly damaging to communities. Indeed, from January to October of 2016, at least 102 women were killed by a male partner or principal male suspect. That’s one woman every three days. That’s a tragic statistic. That hurts me when I say that and it should hurt and make everybody think about that.

On a personal note, I think women, and mothers particularly, are the most important people in the world. People have lots of family-life experiences, but without our mothers, none of us would be here. We should all remember that because that’s why we should be making sure that we challenge every time there’s any discrimination against women, and particularly mums, or your aunts or your sisters. This could happen to any one of us. I’m grateful, Joyce, for your continued support and I hope that we can continue to work together on this very important issue.

The Cabinet Secretary has revealed some truly shocking statistics in his statement. It’s shameful that so many women and girls are subjected to domestic violence in this day and age. Although there’s a growing trend where women are the perpetrators of violence against men and domestic violence also occurs in same-sex relationships, domestic violence is still a crime mainly committed by men upon women.

The physical, psychological and emotional impact of domestic and sexual violence on victims cannot be overestimated. All victims of domestic violence will need support. The Cabinet Secretary’s efforts to develop a survivor engagement framework are welcome, as is his pledge to work to make funding more sustainable. I agree with the Cabinet Secretary that to prevent violence against women in the future, the focus must be on children and their understanding of healthy relationships.

But, the role of adult men in ending violence against women should not be underestimated. Men can play a crucial role in ending gender-based violence. It is essential that young boys have positive role models in their families, on tv, in schools and elsewhere—men who will teach them that no real man hits or abuses a woman. If boys do not have those role models in their families, the state must provide them. Male teachers and other men in public life, for example popstars or sportsmen, all have an important role to play in ending violence against women. They can influence and educate boys to understand what a healthy relationship is.

However, we must ensure that we don’t resort to inflicting a sense of guilt or treat men as if they’re inherently problematic. Instead, we need to encourage men to become involved and help them to understand that they can play a crucial part in securing a happier and safer culture for future generations of women and men. If we work together, we can consign violence against women and girls to history. I therefore call upon men and women across Wales to make every day White Ribbon Day. Thank you.

A really important contribution by the Member, and I thank her for that. This isn’t a women’s issue—this is our issue. This is about things that we should all be shouting from the rooftops—that it’s unacceptable. For far too long, people have been afraid to say things out of turn. It’s been the hidden crime, but it’s not any longer. Fifteen years ago, we would never have had a debate in the Chamber like this. We would never have had a Women’s Institute event in the Senedd talking about these very issues that touch each and every one of our communities. It’s not class distinct—this could happen anywhere to anybody. It’s about time that we, collectively, did something about it. So, I thank the Member for her contribution. You’re absolutely right: we need some male champions around this. Don’t be afraid to stand up and be counted. I, again, recognise that there are many people in this Chamber—many male colleagues in this Chamber—who are championing the cause too.

We’re out of time on this statement, but I will allow three succinct questions from three Members. Julie Morgan.

Thank you very much, and I thank the Minister for his statement. I think there’s no doubt that progress is being made. A lot of people have mentioned the issue of children being educated at a young age. Would he agree that it’s absolutely essential that this is done as young as possible, in the early stages of primary school, so that they grow up with a knowledge of what healthy relationships should be?

I also want to make a point about the violence and sexism that children can view on the internet, which does affect their attitude to relationships. I particularly wanted to mention the game ‘Grand Theft Auto’, which was banned from some retail chains after a petition launched by three female survivors gained more than 40,000 signatures. But, in fact, I know that some children of primary school age are still being allowed to play this game here in Wales. So, I would like to commend Gabalfa Primary School in my constituency for an initiative that I attended last year to educate parents about computer games that encourage violence against women, particularly ‘Grand Theft Auto’, which they carried out as part of a general internet-awareness day that they put on. I really think that educating parents about the content of such games is as important as educating the children. Would he agree that this is an essential part of this strategy, in order that children do not see these images that will distort their views about what healthy relationships are?

Indeed, the Member is right and is, again, another champion of the cause. Healthy relationships are key to making sure that we break the cycle of this heinous crime. I visited a school yesterday, with the area having a relatively high level of incidence of domestic violence. Why is it considered reasonable that this is normal? Why is it considered that to hit another individual—a partner—is the normal practice? Children believe that—that’s how they grow up—and that that’s what will happen to them. We’ve got to break the cycle, and I think the healthy relationships model—getting in very early on—is the key to delivery around this.

As somebody who has worked with female victims of domestic abuse and supported them, I welcome most of the statement. I am concerned at a lack of regulation in the sector, which means that some people fall through the gaps, and those people have ended up in my office. On occasion, it’s been very difficult to get children’s services to listen to victims, and the way that they’ve been treated has compounded the original abuse.

One area missing from this statement is that of politics, because, in some circles, sexism is accepted. Some colleagues on Cardiff Council of all parties—different parties; let’s be clear on that—have suffered unduly over the last four and a half years. Three female councillors have left the authority, one very loudly talking about sexist discrimination. One other female councillor was bullied to the point of having to change political group.

One other councillor has—[Interruption.] I’m coming to it now. It’s very important; please listen. One other councillor has complained to me privately of the abuse that she’s suffered. A member of my own group, because of what she’s been put through, because she’s a woman, doesn’t know whether she wants to stand next year in the council elections. So, my question to you, Minister, and, as a White Ribbon ambassador, I’m sure I’ll get a positive response, because I’ve actually had a negative response from Cardiff Council on this: will you support and initiate a survey of all elected female politicians in Wales to gauge what they’ve gone through and get their opinion on how they’ve been treated? It’s a vital area, and we’re ignoring a lot of sexism that is actually happening to our own colleagues.

I thank the Member for his comments. I listened carefully to his contribution and he is right that it is not appropriate for any member in any political party in any area or arena to be subject to any abuse in any form. He raised a very interesting comment about whether we should have a survey done of Members, political parties, particularly women, who have experienced domestic violence. It may be something that I will ask the Presiding Officer to have a view on in terms of this institution, to start—to lead by example before we go out to a broader subject. Of course, I would hope that all Members are reflective of their personal contribution to tackling the issues around violence against women and sexual abuse, and we take that very seriously. Of course, if there are people who need support in that process, be it through a victim or perpetrator, there are certainly channels that we can advise them on.

Finally, Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Lywydd. Firstly, like Joyce Watson, I’d like to commend the Cabinet Secretary on his commitment over many years to eliminating violence against women. I’m pleased to hear from the Cabinet Secretary today that he will work with survivors to develop a delivery plan. It’s crucial that we listen to those powerful voices. One of those voices is Rachel Williams, who’s one of my constituents. Rachel is an inspiration to me and to many others. Her courage and tenacity in speaking out and her energy and dedication to eliminating violence against women is incredible. Can the Cabinet Secretary expand on how else we can ensure that the survivors’ voices are at the heart of the strategy?

I thank Jayne for her contribution. I know Rachel Williams very well and, indeed, she is an inspiration. Despite what Rachel has been through, she still makes me laugh and still laughs with us, and I think it’s an incredible skill she has, and a mark of respect to Rachel and many other victors, as they like to be called—survivors of domestic violence incidents. A very severe process she went through.

It’s an important part of the process for me that we listen to real people, real experiences, and Rachel and other people like Rachel have to feed into the system. And Rachel is, in fact, on my advisory group; I’ve introduced her to that, and she’s already started to give us an insight about services and service provision, which I’m very grateful for. But we can build beyond that, because experts are welcome in the field of this and other aspects of development of policy, but we must also use experts alongside experiences, and that’s why people like Rachel and others will be part of the way I develop policy and this Government develops policy in the future.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.