<p>Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople</p>

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs – in the Senedd at 2:24 pm on 23 November 2016.

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Photo of Ann Jones Ann Jones Labour 2:24, 23 November 2016

We now turn to party spokespeople’s questions, and the first party spokesperson is Simon Thomas.

Photo of Mr Simon Thomas Mr Simon Thomas Plaid Cymru

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, 2016 is on track to be the warmest year since records began, and the effects of climate change are already being felt, as we’ve seen, indeed, over the last few days here in Wales. Now, your draft budget proposes cuts of 38 per cent in the capital expenditure for climate change mitigation and flood defence projects. Following the announcements of the autumn statement today of some, at least, additional capital funds for the Welsh Government, albeit only about the sum that’s used to repair a big house in London, shouldn’t you now be looking to reinstate some of these funds into your capital projects budget for flood defence?

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 2:25, 23 November 2016

I’m sure the Assembly Member will be pleased to learn that I think a letter is already winging its way to my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government. You will have heard Mark Drakeford say—obviously, he was on his feet for the tail end of the Chancellor’s announcement—certainly, once we’ve had a look at the small print, and the Minister’s had the chance to look at all our bids, we can have a look at what extra funding we can each have.

Photo of Mr Simon Thomas Mr Simon Thomas Plaid Cymru

I thank the Cabinet Secretary, and I’m pleased that she’s taking the advantage to ask for those to be reinstated. We understand £400 million will be available for the next five years. That would suggest around £80 million in this financial year, though I accept that we have to look at the detail. But we have to show leadership on this, and you’ve just returned from the Conference of the Parties 22 in Marrakech, and I was very pleased that you’d been there. Now we understand that even Donald Trump accepts some connectivity, as he puts it, between climate change and our activities, which means that UKIP have been outflanked by Donald Trump on climate change. Can I welcome the announcement that you made at Marrakech that Wales will be one of the six European regions to sign up for the UN 2050 pathways platform to increase co-operation between all levels of Government on the delivery of climate change measures on the ground? Can you provide any more details regarding how you intend to accelerate our delivery of climate change measures, including that all-important aim of cutting emissions by 40 per cent by 2020?

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 2:26, 23 November 2016

Thank you. Yes, I was very pleased to attend COP22, and I don’t think it was too short to say that it was a life-changing experience. I met some inspirational people, and I hope Members have had the opportunity to read the written statement I issued last night. You’re quite right that our target is to reduce carbon emissions by 40 per cent by 2020. That’s a cross-Government commitment. I had bilaterals before I went to Marrakech with my Cabinet Secretary colleagues so I could find out what they were doing within their portfolios. I now plan to have another series of bilaterals, because, clearly, we’ve had a lot to learn from a lot of states and regions. I took the opportunity to have many bilaterals with environment Ministers and other leading politicians from the states and regions. We, of course, have got a lot to learn, but I think it was absolutely vital that we were there. We were part of the UK delegation, but it was very important that I took the message that in Wales, although we’re a small country, we are absolutely happy to play our part in reducing our carbon emissions.

Photo of Mr Simon Thomas Mr Simon Thomas Plaid Cymru 2:27, 23 November 2016

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. It was obvious from your tweets that you were enjoying yourself there, and I mean that in a professional way, and also, of course, from the written statement, which, again, was full of positive messages from COP22. I only regret that the Assembly didn’t get its act together in time to send Assembly Members to accompany you, because I think that will be appropriate for the future.

One of the things that was agreed there—and, again, it was a positive message—was that 47 of the world’s countries most affected by climate change have pledged to use only renewable fuels by 2050. You also told the conference, I think in a blog post, that all electricity bought by the Welsh procurement service for the public sector will be 100 per cent renewable by next year, which I think is laudable, although there is a question always about what is 100 per cent renewable under EU directives, but that’s another matter. What I really want to know is how you will achieve and build and maintain this, and don’t you think, as we move now to a more sustainable future, now is really the time for a Wales-owned non-profit-sharing public energy company to lead the way to be part of the step change in renewables that we need?

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 2:29, 23 November 2016

Yes, I was very pleased to announce that all electricity bought for public services in Wales by the National Procurement Service from next year will be 100 per cent renewable, and there was a great deal of interest from other states and nations as to how we’re going to achieve that. I will be making a statement next month on energy policies for this term of Government, and it’s certainly something I can consider.

Photo of Ann Jones Ann Jones Labour

Conservatives’ spokesperson, David Melding.

Photo of David Melding David Melding Conservative

Cabinet Secretary, are you disappointed that Stop Climate Chaos Cymru has said that Ministers are yet to deliver on climate change policy, and that WWF Cymru warns of an ambition gap?

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour

Well, I don’t think there’s an ambition gap, and I mentioned in my previous answer to Simon Thomas that I had bilaterals with my Cabinet Secretary colleagues before I went to COP22. That was very specifically done. I don’t think there’s a lack of ambition in any portfolio across Government. I do accept that, for us to achieve our target of reducing carbon emissions by 2020, we need to look at doing some things differently, and I mentioned again that I will be having another round of meetings with my colleagues in the coming weeks.

Photo of David Melding David Melding Conservative 2:30, 23 November 2016

Cabinet Secretary, carbon budgets are at the heart of the environment Act, and they’re now not expected until the end of 2018. And I think it’s reasonable for us to ask, ‘Why the delay?’ Does it really take three years to produce the first carbon budgets? We’ll be halfway through this Assembly, and those budgets are supposed to help you prioritise and us to scrutinise.

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour

Yes, we have started the process of getting our carbon budgets in place. Again, I think we need to do more to align those carbon budgets with our financial budgets, and something I learned at COP22 was how this was being done in other countries. If I can expedite it in any way, I will do so.

Photo of David Melding David Melding Conservative 2:31, 23 November 2016

Minister, to emphasise the drift in policy implementation, I must ask why the strategic impact assessments for your department are so vague. They’re at the heart of the future generations Act, and they do not seem to have played much of a part in your budget priorities or choices. Is it not the truth that this Government is keen on legislation, but very poor on implementation, as Stop Climate Chaos Cymru and WWF have so correctly observed?

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour

You are right that we have the future generations Act, we have the environment Act, we’ve got this world-breaking legislation, and it is now all about implementation. I don’t think my SI assessments are vague. I think they’re a very important part, obviously, of our budget. I think that they can be improved on going forward, and I think, when I mentioned in my previous answer about carbon budgets and finance budgets being more aligned, the reason why I said that is so that it does improve year on year.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP 2:32, 23 November 2016

I thank Simon Thomas for acting as the warm-up act to the series of questions I’m about to put on related topics. The Cabinet Secretary will be aware that the Welsh Government has required Powys County Council to increase its generating targets for electricity from renewables—from wind power, in fact—from 50 MW, to 600 MW. That could see another 200 to 300 windmills desecrating the landscape of mid Wales, over 40 per cent of all the landmass of Powys outside the Beacons national park, and up to 14 turbines could automatically, therefore, be approved, because of the presumption of planning approval under the development plan at Abergwesyn, the Begwns, Pant-y-Llyn Hill, Merthyr Cynog, Llandegley, Abbey-cwm-hir, and Hirnant. Local residents are very concerned about the impact that such developments would have upon their daily lives. Given that these projects can make no tangible difference to climate change, and even if you believe in the connection between increased carbon dioxide and global warming, is it really worth wrecking people’s lives and landscape?

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 2:33, 23 November 2016

Well, I was very pleased to answer Simon Thomas’s questions about the very important conference that I attended last week. I’m not going to debate whether I believe in something with a Member of UKIP, frankly. That science has been there for many years.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP

This is a democratic forum, isn’t it? What are we here for?

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour

In relation to windfarms, I do understand that some people have concerns about it, but I would think that those people would also be concerned if, when they put the light on, it didn’t come on. It’s about making sure that we absolutely invest in renewable energy going forward.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP 2:34, 23 November 2016

Well, the Cabinet Secretary clearly doesn’t understand that part of the problem with reliance on renewables is that the lights may well not come on when you press the switch. At the moment, the National Grid is generating 3.33 per cent of power from renewables, compared with 17.32 per cent from coal and 49.68 per cent by combined-cycle gas turbines. Combined-cycle gas turbine generation has to be maintained in order to cope with the intermittent nature of wind. The Campaign for the Protection of Rural Wales has denounced as futile the reliance upon intermittent energy sources because of this duplication of cost, because the average capacity factor of wind turbines is only 20 per cent. So, for 80 per cent of the time they’re not generating enough wind and, therefore, they have to be supplemented by other sources of generation, doubling the capital cost and also in the process, of course, emitting carbon dioxide emissions because of the energy intensive nature of what needs to be created through their capital costs.

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 2:35, 23 November 2016

I absolutely recognise that existing energy sources such as coal play an important role in the Welsh economy and in providing our energy, but what we need to look at is not just the current energy mix but the energy mix going forward. In light of the Paris agreement, which you may not want to sign up to, but I’m absolutely happy to sign up to and I think most Members in this Chamber would be happy to sign up to, we are committed to a transition away from those sources of energy unless appropriate decarbonisation technologies come on stream. So, it’s absolutely vital that we invest in renewable energy and alternative energy sources going forward.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP 2:36, 23 November 2016

Well, under the Paris agreements, of course, India is going to treble its carbon dioxide emissions in the next 15 years and China is going to double them whilst we are making the sacrifices, which have been the subject of my questions this afternoon. But the Cabinet Secretary has responsibility also for rural affairs and the countryside, and tourism is vitally important in mid Wales. Littering the countryside with windmills is going to do nothing to attract tourists to mid Wales. I’m asking the Cabinet Secretary—just to have a sense of proportion on this—there are plenty of places in which you can build windfarms or generate electricity in other renewable ways by solar panels, et cetera, in areas of outstanding natural beauty that might not be national parks; would it not be better not to have these windfarms and to concentrate on building them elsewhere?

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 2:37, 23 November 2016

Well, maybe when the Member learns a bit more about Wales you’ll find that we’re very rich in renewable resources. It’s about balance, so the short answer to your question is ‘no’.