We now move to item 4 on our agenda, which is a statement by the Chair of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee on the committee’s inquiry into human rights. I call John Griffiths as Chair of the committee. John.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased to inform Members today that the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee is launching a call for evidence for our forthcoming inquiry on human rights in Wales. Over the summer, we consulted stakeholders about what they felt should be our strategic priorities. A number of organisations, including Stonewall Cymru, Children in Wales and the Bevan Foundation, wanted us to undertake work on human rights. They highlighted areas of concern, such as the impact of the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union, as well as the UK Government’s proposals to change domestic legislation.

I expect human rights to be a key part of our approach to many, if not all, of the inquiries undertaken by the committee. This is certainly true of our work to date. On Monday, we published our first report on our post-legislative scrutiny of the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. We made a range of recommendations, including ensuring that teaching about healthy relationships is delivered in all schools as part of the new curriculum being put in place following the Donaldson review. The committee was influenced by the view of the national adviser, who told us that the curriculum should include compulsory preventative programmes on all forms of violence, grounded in a gender equality and human rights framework.

The committee is currently undertaking an inquiry on refugees and asylum seekers in Wales. We have visited service providers and service users in Cardiff and Swansea, and we started taking oral evidence last week. It is becoming clear that a key issue for refugees and asylum seekers, and the services that support them, is understanding and enforcing their rights.

The week before last we visited Glasgow and Edinburgh. We wanted to compare approaches to supporting refugees and asylum seekers in Scotland and Wales. We also had a very fruitful meeting with the convener of the Equalities and Human Rights Committee of the Scottish Parliament, Christina McKelvie MSP. There is significant potential for collaborative work on human rights and a range of other issues. I look forward to further dialogue with Christina and our counterparts across the UK and beyond. I will keep Members informed as these relationships develop.

But let me return, Llywydd, to the inquiry we are launching today. I would be grateful if Members would draw this work to the attention of people in their constituencies and regions. I am very happy to provide further information and materials to help Members publicise the inquiry and encourage feedback. I would encourage you to discuss your specific needs with the officials supporting the committee. The wider the range of evidence, the more equipped the committee will be to make recommendations and hold the Government to account on this issue. The closing date for our consultation is 10 February. We expect to be able to hold oral evidence sessions in March, before the Easter recess.

Human rights is a broad and complex topic. For our first piece of specific work on this issue, the committee has decided on a focused and high-level approach. In taking this approach, we want to build on previous work in this area. In particular, we want to follow up on the fourth Assembly’s Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee inquiry in 2013 into the future of equality and human rights in Wales. We will also be building on the expert discussion held in 2014 by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. This covered issues such as the current devolution settlement in relation to human rights, the approach to human rights in Welsh legislation, good and poor practice, and developing the human rights agenda in Wales.

Our terms of reference have three components. First, we want to examine the impact of the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union on human rights protection in Wales. Human rights are protected by a complex collection of laws and treaties. The UK’s withdrawal from the European Union does not automatically affect the UK’s status as a signatory to the European convention on human rights. The convention is an international treaty distinct from the EU treaties and EU charter of fundamental rights.

I’m very keen that our inquiry should link up with the work that is already under way on this issue by the UK Parliament’s Joint Committee on Human Rights, as well as by the Scottish Parliament’s Equalities and Human Rights Committee. I will liaise closely with the Chair of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee as this work develops.

Second, we want to assess the impact of the UK Government’s proposal to repeal the Human Rights Act 1998 and replace it with a UK bill of rights. Human rights is a key part of both the devolution settlement and the UK constitution. Our understanding is that the UK Government remains committed to replacing the Human Rights Act with a British bill of rights, which would curtail the role of the European Court of Human Rights. The Attorney-General appeared to indicate last week that this could be delayed while the UK Government deals with other matters. We will be seeking clarification of the timetable.

Meanwhile, I welcome the assurances given to the committee by the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children in September, when he told us that he would keep Members informed of any concrete proposals from the UK Government. I share his view that the National Assembly should be fully engaged in any consultation that affects the human rights of the people of Wales. There will clearly be a role for the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee in examining any such proposals. I hope that the preliminary policy work of our committee will inform such consideration.

The third and final component of this inquiry is public perceptions about human rights in Wales. We are particularly interested in how understandable and relevant they are to Welsh people. We want to know what people think about the relevance of human rights in everyday Welsh life, and the role of public bodies in engaging and informing the public about their rights. This is especially important given the different approach to human rights in Wales, for example, in the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I see the work of the committee, in launching this inquiry today, as part of a rights-based approach to scrutiny throughout the fifth Assembly. I expect our work programme to combine explicitly human rights-focused inquiries with examining the broad range of topics within our remit from a rights perspective. This inquiry will set the strategic context for that approach. I will be very happy to answer any questions Members have, to help us shape this inquiry. Diolch yn fawr.

I do believe that this inquiry into human rights is crucial and very timely for the committee. This afternoon, I’d like to discuss one specific area of the inquiry that will need to be addressed in detail in my view, namely, equality between men and women. One of the fundamental objectives of the European Union is gender equality, and it is identified as a fundamental right within European law. But of course women’s rights are under threat in relation to Brexit, and we must do everything we can to safeguard the rights we currently have. The powers for equality and employment issues should lie here in Wales. The case for that is stronger than ever now.

European law has been responsible for many of the benefits that have been placed in law. For example, it’s European law that was responsible for expanding the right to equal pay and improving protections against discrimination on a gender basis. It’s European law that’s enhanced access to justice for women who’ve been treated unfairly. It’s European law that has assisted part-time female workers and has strengthened the rights of pregnant women and women new to the workplace. But, of course, in leaving the European Union those very rights are under threat. Now, they may not disappear overnight, but they will be diluted over time, and the gains of the past 40 years will be lost. Given the anti-women climate that both Trump and UKIP, through the statements made by Farage, promote, there is scope for us to be very guarded in this area. Therefore, I think this inquiry can assist us to better understand the situation and to understand what needs to be done to safeguard those rights that have been gained over time.

The inquiry into violence against women and the legislation passed last year has been completed, and I would urge the Welsh Government to implement the recommendations made. There were 14 recommendations in total, which I hope will strengthen the implementation of the legislation on the ground.

The inquiry into asylum seekers and refugees is ongoing at present, and it is becoming more and more apparent, as the committee Chair mentioned, that there are huge problems in terms of the lack of access and the lack of information about basic services that face a number of asylum seekers and refugees currently in Wales. The hope is that we in this inquiry can find a way forward on those issues, too.

I’m very pleased to see the linkages being made between our committee here in the Assembly and the Equalities and Human Rights Committee in Scotland. I hope to see that relationship prospering, and, certainly in light of the inquiry into human rights, there will be an opportunity to share information and to learn from each other. That’s something that I warmly welcome, and I look forward to participating in the inquiry.

I thank Sian Gwenllian very much for those points, and very much agree that gender equality will be absolutely central to the work of the committee and that many of the important protections in place come from the European Union. And, obviously, Brexit, and what’s proposed by UK Government, will be very relevant to the work of the committee and consideration of how we can not just safeguard existing rights, but obviously develop them and improve on them. And I’m sure we’ll get much evidence that’s relevant to those concerns and those issues.

I would also very much agree that the previous inquiry by the Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee in the last Assembly is a base that we will move forward from in terms of the work that the committee will be undertaking. The work around the equality duties, for example, is very relevant and significant. So, I very much look forward to taking this work forward with Sian Gwenllian and the other members of the committee.

With regard to asylum seekers and refugees and our ongoing inquiry, I do believe that information on services, and obviously the quality and availability of services, is central to that. I think our visit to Scotland—to Glasgow and Edinburgh—was very informative, and I do think that, out of that, will come an ongoing relationship where we share experience and we work as a committee with our counterpart committee in Scotland and, indeed, other committees in the UK.

We welcome this inquiry into human rights, and, as somebody who took part in the fourth Assembly’s Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee’s inquiry into the future of equality and human rights in Wales, I welcome the fact that you wish to follow up on that. I wonder if you could just comment, given that, obviously, equality and human rights are both critically important, but are often interpreted as different things, although interrelated—. I wonder, therefore, given the dialogue so far, the extent to which you’re going to focus on human rights specifically, or the extent to which you’re also going to be looking at the broader equality issues to which many of those rights apply.

You make reference, understandably, to the UK Government proposals to replace the Human Rights Act 1998 with a British Bill of rights, and we share your understanding that the Attorney-General appears to have announced a delay, as the Government focuses on withdrawal from the EU, although we note that, in August, the UK justice Secretary did confirm the UK Government’s continued intention to go ahead with this. The proposal, I understand, is that the Bill of rights proposed will ensure that Parliament is the ultimate source of legal authority, and the Supreme Court is supreme in the interpretation of law, and to put the text of the original human rights convention into primary legislation. I wonder to what extent will you be giving attention to this, and how the areas that Wales would wish to safeguard will be safeguarded whilst addressing what some have described as ‘mission creep’ in the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. You’ll be aware the European Court of Human Rights was long established to enforce the convention’s terms, but it wasn’t until 1998 that binding jurisdiction of the court, and the right of individuals to take a case to Strasbourg, became necessary for countries and states signed up to the convention. And these developments happened at the same time as the UK brought forward its own Human Rights Act.

Will you, therefore, give attention to the living instrument doctrine, adopted by the European Court of Human Rights, to expand the convention’s rights into new areas beyond those that the framers of the convention had in mind when they signed up to it? Obviously, there’s concern that some decisions appear to overrule democratically elected Parliaments, and overturn UK courts’ application of convention rights.

Again, will you give consideration to the impacts of the requirement for UK courts to take into account rulings of the Strasbourg court when they are interpreting convention rights, which means problematic Strasbourg jurisprudence is often being applied in UK law, and, also, whether the current UK Human Rights Act undermines the sovereignty of Parliament and democratic accountability to the public?

Moving on from the specific proposals UK Government has as they might impact in Wales, earlier this year, the annual human rights lecture in Wales was delivered by the Reverend Aled Edwards, known to most of us as the chief executive of Churches Together in Wales, Cytûn, and the secretary of the Interfaith Council for Wales. He discussed the experience of asylum seekers, migrants and refugees in Wales and across the world, relating this to the protection and promotion of human rights. He asked what role can the Welsh organisations and individuals play to help protect the human rights of asylum seekers, migrants and refugees in Wales and elsewhere. Could you confirm whether an answer to that question might be something that you would be seeking to address?

Similarly in that context, last week I hosted the Sanctuary in the Senedd event with the Welsh Refugee Council, recognising cross-party support in Wales for Wales to become a nation of sanctuary, but recognising that more needs to be done by both society at large, people, and public authorities, to turn the aspiration into a reality. And, again, will you give consideration to their seven steps to sanctuary, intended to move Wales forward on its journey to becoming a nation of sanctuary?

As I referred to yesterday, earlier this month we saw the International Day of Persons with Disabilities, on the third. In Wales, the United Nations charter on the rights of disabled people was incorporated into the Part 2 code of practice under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. This was based on implementing the social model of disability, which wasn’t actually in the Act itself, recognising that people are disabled not because of their impairments, but because of the barriers that they encounter, and that society has a duty to remove barriers to access and inclusion for them, by working with them to identify and understand those barriers. Again, would you given consideration to this and its implementation, where it’s apparent—certainly from my casework, and, no doubt, many other Members’—that many public sector bodies perhaps are struggling to understand how that should be implemented, by engaging with disabled groups, advocates, access groups, before decisions are taken, rather than after the money is spent?

I’ve almost concluded. I wanted to refer to older people. Human rights have particular relevance for older people, who may find themselves in situations where they experience infringements to their human rights later in life. There are few more basic human rights, as Age Cymru state, than that of being protected from violence or exploitation, and older people must not be placed at risk of abuse or neglect. How, therefore, do you respond to their call for agencies to work together to safeguard individuals, to uphold an individual’s fundamental right to be safe, and to support those who’ve experienced abuse or neglect, and also their concern about the lack of human rights protection for people who self-fund their care services, which has become an issue of concern, where all people in care—older people—must have equal protection from abuse and poor treatment? I suppose, in this context, if you can confirm that you will be taking the evidence that they have certainly shared with me and, no doubt, many others.

Very finally—[Inaudible.]—a report was produced based on the human rights round-table discussion held by the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the Children’s Commissioner for Wales and the Older People’s Commissioner for Wales, with 22 organisations represented, including those bodies, Stonewall Cymru, Mencap, Disability Wales and many others. They made a series of recommendations on a way forward that could help take forward human rights in Wales—to develop a human rights narrative, as they said, that sets out that human rights are for everyone and that they can also be used to improve services and explore how we approach non-devolved issues also in terms of human rights. So, again, could you confirm that you will draw on that piece of work to inform the evidence that you gather? Thank you.

I thank Mark Isherwood for those points. What we’re doing today, of course, is launching our inquiry and inviting evidence to come forward. I’m sure a whole host of organisations will raise many matters and I’m sure many of them will be on the ground that Mark Isherwood has set out today because, obviously, these matters are very relevant to human rights here in Wales. So, we look forward to that process and to receiving evidence from, hopefully, a very wide range of organisations and indeed individuals. As I said earlier, I hope Members will play their part in encouraging that feedback.

As far as some of the constitutional matters are concerned, obviously it will not be just the committee that I chair that will be concerned with these matters. As I said earlier, the Constitutional and Legal Affairs Committee, I’m sure, will take a keen interest, and the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee similarly, and others, including committees elsewhere in the UK. So, I’m sure that a wealth of work will be taking place and obviously we will, as a committee, take a keen interest in all of that. But we are trying to be both high-level and, at the same time, focused. So, that’s why we’ve set out the three aspects really: to give focus and discipline to this body of work, because it could be very complex and almost all-encompassing. So, it is about the impact on human rights in Wales of withdrawal from the European Union, it is about the UK Government’s decision to repeal the human rights legislation and replace it with a UK Bill of rights, and it is about public perceptions in terms of the relevance of human rights to everyday life in Wales. So, those will be the parameters of the committee’s approach and, within that, as I say, I’m sure we’ll have a very strong feeding in of ideas that we can consider in that context.

As far as asylum seekers and refugees are concerned, that particular inquiry will focus on organisations in Wales and the role they can play in providing support and assistance to asylum seekers and refugees in Wales. When we went to visit some of those organisations that are making that provision in Wales, we met numerous voluntary organisations and members of the community that are doing just that, and that was very informative and obviously we will have further evidence provided in other ways.

I did think the Sanctuary in the Senedd event was very worthwhile. Members of the committee I chair were at that event and indeed spoke at that event, as did Mark Isherwood. Afterwards, it was interesting to meet a number of people representing different organisations that are involved in these areas of activity. So, I think we will take a keen interest in the sanctuary movement in Wales and indeed the steps that they consider appropriate to make Wales the welcoming country that I think we all want to see.

Thanks to the committee Chair for his statement. I’m sure that this human rights inquiry will bring to light many areas of interest, not least to me, as the whole issue of human rights has tended to mystify me somewhat over the years. I recall reading a lot about the Human Rights Act 1998 prior to its implementation and, as I worked in a call centre at the time, I wondered what wonderful improvements in employment rights might accrue to my colleagues and me. But, I’m sad to relay that, once the Act came in, I didn’t notice any. So, I’m pleased to note that one of the objectives of this inquiry will be to assess the wider public’s perception of human rights, because I suspect that, for many people in Wales, human rights is a rather woolly concept that, as far as they are aware, has no real bearing on their lives. So, there may be a useful educational aspect to the inquiry, in which I look forward to participating.

I thank Gareth Bennet for those points. I think it will be a valuable part of the committee’s work to get out and about to engage with people in Wales to get a better idea of what they think about human rights in Wales and how it impacts on their everyday life, as the Member has suggested. Of course, here, in the Assembly, we know that devolution has very much taken a rights-based approach to many issues. So, much of the public service delivery and the strategies and policy of Welsh Government is firmly based on that rights agenda. So, I think, as we conduct this inquiry, that will become apparent and, if we can make that more obvious to the people of Wales, as well as getting their views, I think that will be a valuable aspect of this inquiry.

Thank you very much.