The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Paul Davies.

We move on to item 7, which is the Plaid Cymru debate. I call on Llyr Gruffydd to move the motion.

Motion NDM6198 Rhun ap Iorwerth

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Recognises the important contribution of the Welsh higher education sector in providing important opportunities to the people of Wales, and delivering significant economic benefits to communities across the nation.

2. Believes that a successful and vibrant higher education sector is essential for a prosperous Wales.

3. Believes that the Welsh Government should do all that is necessary to safeguard the future sustainability of the Welsh higher education sector.

4. Calls on the Welsh Government to work with the UK Government to:

a) protect or replace existing EU funding and programmes for research and higher education;

b) secure the continued participation of Welsh universities in the Erasmus Plus scheme of staff and student exchange, and to support further international collaborations and movement of students, researchers, and staff;

c) secure the visa and citizenship status of EU nationals working in Welsh universities;

d) enable Welsh universities to participate in a post-study work visa scheme; and

e) remove international students from UK net migration targets.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. It’s my pleasure to move this motion in the name of Plaid Cymru. We are, of course, of the view that students from outside of the UK, be they from within the EU or outwith the EU, do bring cultural, economic and educational benefits to our universities and colleges here in Wales, and indeed to broader society. It’s important, therefore, in light of the major changes that are facing us on a constitutional level, that that should continue and, indeed, that we do what we can to strengthen those international relations between our universities and the European Union and the rest of the world.

The Presiding Officer took the Chair.

In order to do that, of course, it’s important that we ensure that Wales continues to be an attractive place for students. In my view, offering the opportunities to students to remain within the UK post study is something that’s important and would assist in reducing the skills gap in many sectors here in Wales too. The strong presence of overseas students also allows us to develop international partnerships anew. Indeed, as the UK is, over the next few years, going to be in the process of developing a new relationship with nations across the globe, the need is greater than ever for graduates who are internationally literate individuals who can provide the leadership required in order to create partnerships and relationships on a global level in the future. Reducing the involvement of Welsh universities with the international community isn’t conducive to achieving that.

The diversity of our international campuses does enhance the experience of home students through learning a number of different viewpoints held by students from all parts of the world. These, of course, are all important benefits, never mind the economic benefits, which are also referred to in our motion this afternoon.

If you count university expenditure in terms of staff and students, then Welsh universities have an important direct impact on local economies. In 2013, they produced worth £2.4 billion of GVA in Wales, which accounted for 4.6 per cent of all Welsh GVA in that particular year. Welsh universities produced £600 million of export gains in 2014. Universities are responsible for almost 47,000 jobs here in Wales, directly and indirectly, representing some 3.5 per cent of employment in Wales in 2013. In 2014, it was estimated that a total of almost £0.75 billion had been spent on research and development here in Wales, representing some 2.5 per cent of research and innovation spend in the UK. Now, that isn’t as high as perhaps we should be receiving. Plaid Cymru, back in September, did propose that more should be invested in this area, but certainly that, in and of itself, is a very substantial figure indeed.

To defend these interests, we need to safeguard the sustainability of the HE sector in Wales for the future, and we know that the funding situation for the sector is vulnerable as it currently stands. A report by Universities Wales has outlined the significant pressures on the HE funds at present. Now, since 2011, of course, we have seen the direct public funding provided to our universities through HEFCW and so on reducing from almost £400 million to some £112 million over the past five years, mainly, of course, because of the way in which tuition fees now fund much of the sector. Some 10 per cent of the sector’s funding emanates from this public funding at the moment—that’s through HEFCW, and so on—50 per cent comes through student fees, both international students and home students, and the rest comes from research grants, commercial contracts and charitable contributions, and so on. Universities, of course, have now had to borrow much more in order to make capital investments to remain competitive with other universities. Until recently, Welsh universities had borrowing levels that were lower than the UK average, but the most recent forecast suggests that these levels will increase very significantly and may go beyond that average figure over the next few years.

So, what needs to be done? The motion outlines a number of approaches that suggest some of the areas that should be tackled. Clearly, first of all, we need to safeguard the funding and the current EU programmes for research in higher education, or we need to at least provide alternative funding and programmes. Wales has received, as we know, over €140 million from the European framework programme during the 2007-13 round. Projects in Wales received some £12 million in funding from the Horizon 2020 fund in 2014 alone. Welsh universities have received some £180 million in funding from the European Investment Bank over the past five years for the development of campuses and the development of research and teaching facilities, and so on and so forth. So, this is an important area, and some universities are already telling us that partners are withdrawing from arrangements already in place because of concerns that they won’t qualify as international partners for funding unless all partners remain within the European Union.

International collaboration is crucially important for research projects. They enhance the student experience and the experiences of our academic staff. You will see reference to Erasmus in this motion. Over 200,000 students and staff in the UK have participated in Erasmus, not just in HE but in the FE sector, which has benefited very significantly from Erasmus. A survey from the British Council at the beginning of the month said that 69 per cent of people in Britain believe that we should continue to participate in exchange schemes such as Erasmus. There are benefits and international influence that can be gained from welcoming international students. International students and staff who have lived in Wales are more likely to trust in us, to visit Wales in the future and to establish business partnerships with Welsh companies. As has been discussed previously, we know that we can participate in Erasmus without being a member of the European Union. Countries such as Iceland, Russia, Norway and Turkey all bear witness to that. I also know that the Government has already agreed with the view that we need to do what we can to ensure that that relationship does continue.

We also need to ensure the visa and citizenship status of EU nationals working in Welsh universities. The first thing to say is that that is the ethical thing to do, because they are people and not playing cards in a political game. We have a visa regime for academics and researchers from outwith the EU that is so strict that, according to the evidence that I’ve received from universities, it has been a great barrier to a number of research projects and has a negative impact on the recruitment of international students. For example, over the past four years, the number of students from India studying in the UK has declined by some 50 per cent. There is some discussion that the UK Government wants to make the system even stricter, which will create real concern among staff and international students, and some of them will discount Wales as a destination, which is a loss culturally, economically and academically. The House of Commons Science and Technology Committee has asked for the Government to exempt scientists from the EU already working in the UK from any changes to the migration rules, so that talented staff can be retained within UK universities, and that is something that we, of course, would endorse.

Also, we need to enable Welsh universities to participate in a post-study work visa scheme. Jo Johnson, the UK Minister for universities and science, has already announced that EU students applying for a place in UK universities in 2017 will be safeguarded in terms of the place and funding until the end of the courses, even if the UK leaves the EU before those courses are concluded. But, of course, without the opportunity to stay in the UK for a year or two after graduating, it’s quite possible that many of those students will choose to study elsewhere in any case. So, in order to attract students to study in Wales, we should consider re-introducing a visa scheme that will enable students to remain in the country to work, having concluded their studies—something akin to what was actually abolished in 2012: the tier 1 post-study—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, okay.

Thank you, Llyr. Do you also agree that it’s not just for working; it’s also postdoctoral aspects, because a lot of students from overseas will continue their studies here through postdoctoral work?

Yes, I agree entirely. It was shorthand to talk of work. You’re quite right to correct me on that. Thank you for doing so.

Of course, the tier 1 post-study work visa, which was abolished in 2012, did allow international students to wait for an additional two years after graduation. Universities across the UK and in Wales are supportive of that. Such a scheme would benefit the economy, enabling talented students to remain here in Wales.

There is a pilot scheme currently allowing four universities in England to take more responsibility for checking the qualifications of the tier 4 applicants for visas. As part of the scheme, qualified students can remain in the country for six months after graduation to seek work, and then apply for a tier 2 visa, but that scheme is far from being akin to what we had in place previously. Plaid Cymru has also called for a Welsh visa system, which would enable Wales to give its own qualification visas, rather than Westminster acting as a barrier between Wales and the world. It’s something that the all-party group on social integration in Westminster highlighted just last week too.

Finally, of course, we need to take international students from the UK net migration targets, and now, individuals such as George Osborne and Boris Johnson have stated that they would be supportive of such a move. A recent survey by Universities UK showed that the majority of the public don’t consider international students to be migrants. Seventy-five per cent welcomed higher numbers of international students, and 91 per cent believed that they should have a right to remain within the UK to work post study.So, there’s a great deal that needs to be done, but what is unquestionable is that students from outwith the UK do make a cultural, academic and economic contribution, which is very important and substantial to Wales. We need to protect and strengthen that, in my view. Westminster must not be some sort of barrier, as I’ve said, between Wales and the world. We can send a strong message on some of the things that we would want to do from the Chamber this afternoon by supporting this motion today.

I have selected the amendment to the motion. I call on Darren Millar to move amendment 1 tabled in the name of Paul Davies.

Amendment 1—Paul Davies

In point 4, delete sub-points a), b), c) and d) and replace with:

a) maximise international sources of research funding for Welsh universities;

b) support collaborations which provide opportunities for Welsh university students, researchers and staff to engage in international exchange programmes;

c) explore the development of reciprocal arrangements with the EU to address concerns regarding the status of EU nationals working in Welsh universities;

d) continue to provide opportunities for international graduates to be provided with visas post their studies which enable them to work and establish businesses in the UK;’

Amendment 1 moved.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I also want to thank the Plaid Cymru representative for introducing this important debate today. I move the amendments that have been tabled in the name of my colleague Paul Davies on behalf of the Welsh Conservative group.

I think everybody in this Chamber agrees that the higher education sector is of enormous importance to Wales. We know that our universities, as has already been said, are major employers and that they have a significant contribution, which they make on an annual basis, to our economy. They also, of course, do contribute to the success of Welsh exports and those earnings have been growing in recent years. Of course, there’s the employment that they offer to those who are directly employed to them, and of course, those who, through the trickle-down economics, are employed in jobs as a direct result of having universities in their local communities. There’s no doubt in my mind that, because of the increasing global nature of markets and the increasing global nature of our economy here in the UK, we will need to be a country here in Wales with a very highly skilled workforce, and those universities help to deliver just that and many of them have very good and close working relationships with employers to meet their needs.

I think it’s worth reminding ourselves today that it’s not just universities that are delivering higher education. Many further education colleges now across Wales have an increasing proportion of their income down to delivering what traditionally would’ve been delivered in the university sector. I think, at the latest count, around 8 per cent of the income of further education colleges in Wales is actually higher education related. In fact, that percentage is as high as 20 per cent in some of our further education colleges.

So, let’s not forget that that is the context that we’re talking about. Now, I have to say, in point 4 today we’ve tabled a significant amendment that changes the nature of many of the points that have been made. The reason that we’ve done that is because we understand that there is a need to maximise and replace those sources of income, in terms of the research income, for our Welsh university sector in the future if, as a result of Brexit, we no longer have access to funds like Horizon 2020.

Now, Horizon 2020 is a significant source of research funding—it accounts for around 20 per cent of research funding at the moment here in Wales—but it’s not the only source of research funding. Eighty per cent is coming from elsewhere. We also know that there are risks in the future to the proportion of the European research funds that we currently receive—not just because of Brexit, even if we are part of Horizon 2020 post Brexit—and that may well be the case, depending on the negotiations and discussions that take place—then we know that there are hints from the European Union that the focus of Horizon 2020 research funding will be on promoting and developing quality research culture in parts of the EU and those other participating countries that don’t currently have high-quality research. So, we will probably be losing out in terms of our share of that cash in the future. So we don’t know what those changes are going to be yet and it’s difficult to speculate. [Interruption.] Yes, I haven’t got a lot of time, though.

Thank you, Darren, for taking the intervention. But you also recognise that part of Horizon 2020 was actually to look at how we can encourage businesses to get involved in the research profile, and for there to be collaboration across the different countries, and therefore the focus actually is on greater collaboration, particularly with business this time.

Yes, of course, I do recognise that, and I also recognise that it’s possible to participate in Horizon 2020 post Brexit, and I think that’s the point that Llyr Huws Gruffydd is making, which is a very important point. These things should be discussed and should be on the table, but the point I’m making is that there are opportunities for universities to develop other relationships internationally, outside of that, and I think that probably, because of the over-reliance on Horizon 2020, there may have been a lack of focus on developing those links from some of our Welsh universities The same, of course, applies to Erasmus+—it’s an important scheme, it enables a programme of exchange, but it’s not the only programme of exchange operating in Wales and it’s not the only programme of exchange operating across the UK. I think we don’t do it justice, the university sector, to say that that is the be all and end all in terms of those exchange programmes.

Just in terms of visas, if I may for a few moments, there are visa programmes that currently work that support postgraduate students to be able to get entitlements to stay in the UK to start their own businesses, there are ones that entitle them to stay in the UK if they have a job offer, there are ones that entitle people to stay and study beyond a postgraduate course as well. The reason that the visa regime changed was because there was widespread abuse. We know that there was widespread abuse—there were many colleges that were allowing people to have visas on the basis when they shouldn’t have been, particularly in terms of English language qualifications. Many of those, of course, were in that nation—India, Pakistan and others that were referred to in the opening of this debate. That’s why the visa regime changed.

Now, where I do agree with Plaid Cymru is that we need to exclude students from those net migration figures, and that’s why we’ll be supporting that particular part of the motion today. But I do hope that you’ll understand that we need to have some reciprocal arrangement as well with the EU, in terms of citizenship and the ability to stay at work in those universities where we have staff employed. I appreciate the uncertainty is not helpful at the moment, but that needs to be reciprocal in the future.

Well, clearly, as has been said, the higher education sector is crucially important to both our society and economy, not least because its research and development projects are crucial in creating a more prosperous economy here in Wales.

Doubts over research funding make this an uncertain time for the sector. Ending our access to money from international bodies could lead to a struggling university sector, which in turn will have a significant negative knock-on effect on Wales. Brexit, and the potential end to overseas research funding could pull the rug, the floor and the foundations from under our economy. With far less to attract bright people to study and stay in Wales, we push ourselves ever closer to a McJob market. The facts speak for themselves: graduates earn almost £10,000 a year more than people without degrees. Llyr mentioned India earlier, and I think it’s important for us to look outside the European Union in this regard. We would be foolish to underestimate, actually, the wealth, not only of talent but the wealth in the pockets of these students who come here to Wales, and the fact that many of them stay and work in Wales and make Wales their home following on from their studies here in Wales, and long may that continue.

The impact of the higher education sector is spread across Wales, supporting even those areas that do not have universities, which contributed a quarter of that total GVA. Likewise, over 25 per cent of the jobs supported by the sector in 2013 were situated in local authorities without a university—areas such as Neath Port Talbot and Bridgend in my own region, where the higher education sector generated over 2,000 jobs.

We should be proud that Welsh universities punch above their weight when it comes to research. We have the highest percentage of world-leading research in terms of impact of any nation in the UK, according to the 2014 research excellence framework, with almost half of it considered to be having a transformational effect on the economy and society. So, given the significant financial support Wales has received from the EU, Brexit will present considerable challenges to research and development. In 2015 alone, almost £25 million of European regional development funding was approved for proposals to enhance research and innovation infrastructure and build capacity across Wales, at the Aberystwyth innovation and enterprise campus, and Cardiff University’s Brain Research and Imaging Centre. The science and innovation bay campus at Swansea University in my region opened in October 2015 and received a €60 million investment from the European Investment Bank. We can’t underestimate the importance of that investment to the South Wales West economy.

Darren Millar mentioned Horizon 2020 earlier, and while it is true that we still can gain access to Horizon 2020 following leaving the European Union, we don’t know at the moment what the negotiations look like or what type of Brexit deal we will have to know whether we will be able to have the same level of access to Horizon 2020 that we currently have. So, it’s important that we make the case to be part of those types of schemes, whether that’s one of many or not.

The Chancellor’s commitment to add an extra £2 billion a year to expenditure on research and development by the end of the current Westminster Parliament could well add up to nothing if European grant funding disappears, considering that the UK’s gross expenditure on R&D in 2014 was just 1.67 per cent of GDP, one of the lowest of the G7 countries, and we are going backwards. But more than that, what does it mean for new projects? What would it mean for a steel research and development centre at Swansea’s innovation campus, for example—a project that many of us have been pushing for for some time now? It follows that if any additional funding is merely plugging holes, running to stand still, then new investment is very unlikely to get a look in, and proposals like the steel R&D plan, which would underpin the area’s viability as a steel-making centre—something hugely important to the economy of Wales—would potentially face stiffer competition at the very least.

This is a very delicate time for higher education, and we must ensure, as law and policy makers, that we understand fully the impact on our institutions of this significant change to the political landscape, if and when, finally, we vote for the Brexit plan to go through.

I’d like to declare an interest, Llywydd, as an associate lecturer at Cardiff Metropolitan University. I’m going to be supporting this motion today, and I was hopping up and down in agreement with Llyr Gruffydd’s speech. Particularly, I’d like to draw attention to points—it doesn’t happen very often, but there we go. [Laughter.]—4(d) and 4(e) in the motion. Higher education is an international vocation, and collaboration across nations in teaching and research is highly valued by the academic community. Indeed, I was, in my previous role as a senior lecturer, a link tutor with a college in Greece, where we validated courses, in Perrotis College/ American Farm School in Greece, in Thessaloniki, and I considered myself to be a Welsh export.

I believe that the UK Government’s visa controls, which Llyr has already mentioned, introduced by our Prime Minister when she was Home Secretary, are part of a wider attack on the value of international students and the international student sector to the economy. I think, Darren Miller, you were talking—as a former higher education lecturer—a load of rubbish towards the end of your speech, it has to be said. Theresa May scrapped post-study work visas in 2012. These had allowed non-EU students to stay in the UK and work for up to two years after graduation. Now they are only able to stay for four months. She wanted to go further at that time and expel international students from Britain immediately after graduation, until business leaders talked some sense into her about the potential negative impact on the economy.

In my previous role, I taught the Cardiff Met MBA. In 2008, there was an average of 150 international MBA students on the programme per semester. As a direct result of UK Government policy, there were 30 students left on the programme when I ended my full-time employment in 2016. That’s a direct result of UK Government policy, and it is insulting—[Interruption.] In a second. It is insulting to say that this was because of misdemeanours by those students. That was not the case.

I am not accusing any one of those students of fraudulently applying for visas. I am simply making the point that there was some fraud identified in the system that needed to be addressed. The previous system was not working. There are still opportunities under the current visa arrangements for people to apply for visas and access them.

Not in Wales. That wasn’t happening in Wales. I’ll tell you something else: as a Conservative, your policy is usually to get the state out of things. Well, I tell you what: you are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. If you wanted to resolve some of these things at those colleges where there were misdemeanours, you resolve them with those colleges by shutting those colleges down. You don’t do it by damaging the Welsh economy.

Overseas students are included as well in the UK’s net migration figures. That is utterly, utterly absurd. These people are students, not migrants, and they make a huge contribution to our economy, and they still do. In 2013-14, in that academic year, even after these destructive reforms were introduced, international students made up just under one fifth of those in UK education. If we go any further with these proposals with student visas, we are going to damage our economy. It’s therefore difficult to overstate the importance of overseas students to higher education in Wales. I am a member of the University and College Union, and they carried out a survey that found that, post Brexit, two fifths of staff and students were now more likely to consider not coming to the UK or leaving the UK higher education system as a result of Brexit, because of fears that those conditions that international students outside the EU suffer—they will face the same problems within the EU. I met a university vice-chancellor who told me that international staff were vital to the development of outward-looking teaching and research. Yes, David.

Thank you for taking the intervention. Do you also agree that it is not just that they come for graduation and degrees? They want to actually go into the research areas after that. Therefore, they come because they know the research is there. They want to continue their studies post graduation, and even post doctorate, they want to continue working in research. So, it’s a whole picture.

Yes, the MBA students are our future doctoral students and they are our future researchers. Yes, absolutely. They have an intellectual value that should remain in our economy. Subjecting EU nationals to the same, already harsh restrictions as non-EU nationals after Brexit could have a catastrophic effect on our university system, and it will be to the detriment of our already stuttering economic growth. It is therefore imperative that we secure the visa and citizenship status of EU nationals working in Welsh universities, as the motion quite rightly identifies. Our capacity to meet demand for highly skilled jobs relies on that, and that’s why I will wholeheartedly support the Plaid Cymru motion today.

I’m very pleased to add to the agreement that has broken out in the Chamber by agreeing entirely with what Hefin said in giving his speech. We can agree on several other things if we keep away from the issue of pork. There are three things that we can do to ensure the future of the higher education sector in Wales, following the decision to exit the EU, and some of the other aspects that have been mentioned by other Members. Let us be clear on how important this sector is. As has been said—and it’s very important to reiterate the point—this is one of the greatest exports that we have. We are second only to the United States in terms of the international engagement that there is in the higher education sector throughout the British isles. We want to maintain that situation and ensure that that does continue to bring benefits to Wales.

One post is created in Wales for every three students who come to Wales from outwith the European Union. One post is created for every five students coming from within the EU. That corresponds to over £200 million in terms of payments by international students to universities in Wales every year, including £160 million of payments for tuition fees. So, it’s vitally important that we do maintain this flow of income to universities, as well as the fact, of course, that a number of our universities in Wales are within 150 or 200 places of failure or success, according to the level of recruitment to those universities. International students are not only important economically and internationally; they’re important because they enrich our universities, they bring new skills, they bring a new perspective, they form relationships with our domestic students, if you will, and they enhance that process as a result.

Mae tri pheth cyflym y gallem ei wneud i sicrhau hyfywedd y sector yn y dyfodol. Yn gyntaf oll, fel y soniodd Hefin David wrth orffen, mae angen i ni sicrhau statws fisa myfyrwyr ac athrawon a darlithwyr o’r UE mewn prifysgolion, ac ymchwilwyr, sydd yma gyda ni eisoes. Rydym eisoes yn darllen straeon eithaf brawychus am wladolion yr UE yn gorfod profi eu cenedligrwydd a’u hawl i aros yn y wlad hon. Nid ydym am weld rhagor o hynny. Mae arnom angen ymrwymiad clir gan Lywodraeth y DU fod gan y myfyrwyr hyn a’r aelodau hyn o staff hawl i aros yn y sector prifysgolion yng Nghymru. Ceir oddeutu 1,300 o staff sy’n wladolion yr UE ym mhrifysgolion Cymru yn unig, ac mae gwir angen eu hannog i aros.

Yr ail beth y mae angen i ni weld yw system fisa sy’n addas at y diben. Ar y diwrnod y dywedodd y gŵr â’r enw priodol, neu amhriodol, Robert Goodwill, y bydd gennym ardoll o £1,000 ar gyfer holl ddinasyddion yr UE sy’n dod i weithio yn y wlad hon, rwy’n credu bod angen ailedrych yn gyflym iawn sut rydym yn gwahaniaethu rhwng myfyrwyr a gweithwyr yn y ffigurau hynny, oherwydd nid ydym am weld y nifer sydd eisoes yn lleihau o fyfyrwyr sy’n gwneud cais i brifysgolion Cymru—sydd wedi gostwng rhywbeth tebyg i 32 y cant yn barod yn y ceisiadau cynnar yn dilyn canlyniad y refferendwm, o wledydd yr UE—nid ydym am weld hynny’n datblygu i fod yn drychineb go iawn i’n prifysgolion. Felly, system fisa sy’n addas at y diben. Mae hynny, ym marn Plaid Cymru, yn cynnwys system fisa wedi’i rhanbartholi yng nghyd-destun y DU, felly mae gan Gymru ei gofynion fisa ei hun. Nid yw hynny’n newydd. Mae Sadiq Khan, Maer Llundain, wedi galw am hynny, gan bwyso ar adroddiad PricewaterhouseCoopers a gynhyrchwyd ar gyfer Corfforaeth Dinas Llundain. Mae gan Ganada system fisa o’r fath ac mae wedi bod yn gweithredu’r system fisa honno ers nifer o flynyddoedd yn y taleithiau. Yr wythnos diwethaf yn unig, galwodd y grŵp hollbleidiol ar integreiddio cymdeithasol yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin yn San Steffan hefyd am system fisa gyda system fewnfudo ranbarthol. Gallwn wneud defnydd o hynny wedyn i deilwra myfyrwyr a gweithwyr mudol yn unol ag anghenion economi Cymru.

Y peth olaf y mae angen i ni ei wneud er mwyn sicrhau dyfodol y system addysg uwch a myfyrwyr rhyngwladol yw tynnu myfyrwyr rhyngwladol o’r targedau mewnfudo. Nid yw’n hysbys iawn, ond o’r niferoedd mewnfudo y siaradwn amdanynt bob amser, mae 30 y cant ohonynt—un o bob tri—yn fyfyrwyr ac maent yn dychwelyd adref. Mae’n rhaid i mi ddweud wrth Darren Millar mai’r nifer—a dyma’r niferoedd swyddogol—sy’n aros yn hwy na’u fisâu yw 1 y cant. Dyna natur y bwystfil. Nid yw’n werth gwastraffu’r 99 y cant er mwyn ymdrin â hynny. Iawn, ar bob cyfrif, ewch i’r afael â cholegau sy’n methu, ar bob cyfrif ewch i’r afael â chamddefnyddio—[Torri ar draws.] Nid oes gennyf amser, sori; mae fy amser ar ben. Ar bob cyfrif ewch i’r afael â’r rhai sy’n camddefnyddio’r system, ond am y 99 y cant, mae angen i ni eu tynnu o’r ffigurau ac mae angen dadl onest am wir nifer y mewnfudwyr sy’n dod i Gymru a’r rhan y maent yn ei chwarae, ac nid ymfudwyr yw myfyrwyr.

Whilst it can be a character-building experience attending higher education, the rush to turn every subject and vocation into a degree course has been a character-destroying experience for many young people. The jobs market has been flooded with graduates to the extent that their wages are lower than ever before, their debts are higher, and the taxpayer is footing a much larger bill for the administration of a loan system as fewer graduates are hitting the repayment threshold when expected. Employers are largely filtering candidates between those who have a 2:1 and those who don’t. Some larger organisations are now saying that there are so many graduates that they’re now treating Master’s degrees as the new honours degree.

The sustainability of the Welsh higher education system depends not just on Government funding, but also on its reputation for research and development and on the standard of education and other experiences that higher education establishments can offer here. It would be wrong to just blindly adopt the judgments of the EU when it comes to spending on HE when looking at funding support. The EU has not been known for its thriftiness or its accountability. The Welsh Government needs to exercise its own judgement on whether such funds bring good enough return on investment before replacing the funds. It is better placed than any other to know what is affordable and to react to the needs of the Welsh economy.

Will you take an intervention? Are you prepared to accept that international students directly contribute £22 million to the UK economy?

I accept that and I also argue that if our HEIs were to widen their net, they could actually be making a lot more money in the long term, and be more sustainable in the long term, than focusing on EU students who have to be offered the same terms as home students.

Those currently working in UK universities will be allowed to stay. To say that they might not is, again, perhaps coming from a party that is doing all it can to scaremonger and demand things that will happen anyway so that they can attempt to claim victory further down the line. UKIP has said, time and time again, that those EU nationals living here at the moment should have the right to stay. Theresa May should announce that immediately and stop using people who are settled here as some kind of bargaining chip. The Tory Member who proposed the amendment should be demanding nothing less. I’m afraid his half-hearted amendment to merely explore arrangements for a reciprocal agreement is disgracefully less. UKIP says that those who are here at the moment should be allowed to stay regardless of any reciprocal agreement. The law suggests that that is the case in any event.

Post-study work visas are a vital part of attracting and keeping high-quality graduates in the country and I support their use. However, under EU freedom of movement, we’ve become accustomed to oversimplifying the classifications of those coming here. We had no choice in that. However, many people come to Wales to study. We should at least count them and consider if we can cope with the numbers or whether we need to attract more. There is no reason why we can’t have separate targets for student numbers, but we do need to acknowledge that we have finite resources and public services in this country. To pretend otherwise is irresponsible.

International research funding is important, but has to pass the education principal quality test. There is no such thing as a free lunch and it would be a shame to see research only being done because it is sponsored by profit-orientated, multinational companies. It flies in the face of what education should be about. As far as future graduates are concerned, I totally support the ability of international graduates to remain, work and settle here. But EU open-door immigration currently means a highly qualified graduate from Nigeria would have great difficulty remaining here after their studies, or even coming here in the first place.

Following Brexit, we have a duty to make sure our immigration policy is based on merit, not nationality as it is now. The UK’s HE institutions are very highly regarded across the world. Seven out of the 11 best universities in Europe are in the UK, and while the UK has four universities in the world’s top 20, the other EU countries have none. We have advantages that many countries don’t have. Welsh Government must promote and market Welsh higher education across the globe, once they have the freedom to do so after Brexit. Thank you.

There are some general concerns about the future of the HE sector in Wales, not only as the result of Brexit, of course; the sustainability of the sector has been vulnerable for many years now. But, the implications of Brexit for our universities will mean that it is crucial that the Welsh Government and the UK Government do take action soon in order to safeguard the future of the sector.

As many have already said this afternoon, a successful HE sector is crucial for a prosperous Wales. Therefore, the Welsh Government must do everything needed in order to safeguard the sustainability of the sector. First of all, we need to safeguard the current funding and funding programmes of the European Union or provide alternative funding and programmes.

Taking into account the expenditure of universities, staff and students, Welsh universities have an important direct impact, which is far-reaching, on the Welsh economy. The economic impact of the HE sector in Wales came to a total of £4.6 billion during 2014-15, with £251 million of that coming to Gwynedd alone. There are 3,000 jobs in Bangor University, which is an important part of the local economy of the area, with far more employed indirectly as a result of the existence of Bangor University.

Universities in Wales have raised concerns about the funding system for many years, pointing to the funding gap between institutions in England and Wales as a result of the tuition fee grant, and it’s estimated that the gap was between £73 million and £115 million in 2015. The hope is, of course, that the recommendations of Diamond will actually deal with some of that gap, but the historic impact on the sector has been grave, and the Welsh Government has been underfunding universities in this country. Plaid Cymru has been able to ensure that there will be no further cuts in the 2017-18 budget, but the situation remains extremely challenging. The funding gap has meant cuts to courses, with Bangor University, for example, having to close the school of lifelong learning, although there are some hopes that some provision will be provided in an alternative manner.

Given these funding pressures, European Union grants for research and development, as well as capital funding, have been exceptionally important in supporting the HE sector’s work in Wales and in enabling that sector to remain competitive: £12 million in funding from the Horizon 2020 fund in 2014 alone; £118 million in funding from the European Investment Bank between 2011 and 2016 for developing learning facilities and improving learning and research facilities. For example, Bangor University received funding to the tune of €10 million in March 2016 from the European Investment Bank, and another funding package worth €54 million from the bank in 2014, which is significant funding, not only for the university but for the wider economy, as I’ve said.

Philip Hammond has pledged to safeguard the funding of any project currently receiving Horizon 2020 funds up until the end of the project, even if we do leave the European Union before that programme is concluded, but what happens after that? The autumn statement allocated funding for research and development, but what about the broader range of academic research work that is also being funded through the European Union? We can participate in Horizon 2020 without being members of the European Union. Norway, Turkey and Israel, for example, do succeed in doing so, and it’s also possible to receive funding from the European Investment Bank without being members of the European Union—for example, Norway, Liechtenstein, Iceland and Switzerland do so. It’s important that all efforts are made now, and that we leave no stone unturned in order to ensure that our HE sector continues to have access to these funding sources once we have left the European Union.

Can I thank Llyr for introducing this debate and commend many of the contributors already who’ve spoken in support of the motion? I make no apologies for reiterating some of the points that have been made already, because I think they are worth stating very emphatically. Can I also thank very much Cardiff University, Universities Wales and others for the briefing materials that they supplied in advance of this debate, which raised some of the very pertinent issues that have already been aired within this Chamber?

It’s good that we now have a universities group, a cross-party group, set up within the Assembly that looks at these matters, as well as the group chaired by Rhun ap Iorwerth on Wales in the international sphere, which has looked at many of these aspects of our reach with our education, with our students and our staffing expertise internationally, but also the importance of continuing as a very attractive place to come and to study, to do research, and also to work as well and to extend those employment opportunities. It is worth saying that in the backdrop to this debate and the context for this debate is the mood music that we set as a Welsh Government and also as a UK Government internationally: how does it sound overseas? We know we’ve been through a pretty difficult period. There’s a highly competitive international market for students. We know that the evidence will show that people have been voting with their money and with their feet and choosing other locations, partly because of the disruption last year—the feeling that we were less than welcoming to those from overseas.

I think we need to turn this around, and it was good to see that both the Cabinet Secretary’s speech at Cardiff University and the First Minister’s speech at Bangor University in November as well, in Sian Gwenllian’s constituency, were very well received by the university sector in Wales. They said that they were very reassured that the priorities for the Welsh Government were the right priorities for the university sector domestically, but also the right things were said about how we should look outwardly facing to the world, welcoming international students from the EU and wider afield, but also welcoming the opportunities that we have and making sure that we retain those opportunities and that our expertise and our students also go out into the world and that our staff expertise is shared as well. These points have been made in some way already by the contributors to the debate so far.

But I want to put down some salient facts into the debate. As we speak, there are currently nearly 5,500 EU students of all modes, all levels, full and part-time, postgraduate and undergraduate, within Welsh universities this year. It is equivalent to over 4 per cent of the student population. Those EU students in Wales have generated around about £150 million for the Welsh economy—if you add to that all international students it’s around £235 million to the Welsh economy—and this is, as I say, not only significant in contribution but it’s also a highly competitive market out there as we go forward. I hear the reassurances from Darren Millar that, whilst it’s uncertain, things will be okay in the future. We hope very much that is the case but I have to say the uncertainty at the moment is why Universities Wales are raising these concerns, particularly after the year that we’ve just come out from.

If you look at the staff impact, the criticality of EU staff in supporting the excellence of our Wales university sector, as we speak, there are nearly 1,400 staff from other parts, other countries within the EU—and we’re still within the EU at the moment—within our Welsh universities, both academic and, by the way, non-academic. So, when we look at the issue of visas—skilled, non-skilled, different grades of skills and so on—we have to be careful that, as the Home Office is looking at this issue, we don’t actually by default suddenly find the negative consequence that we’ve drawn certain people into being allowed to be here and we’ve excluded others who are equally essential to the higher education sector within Wales.

Finally, I just want to touch very briefly, Presiding Officer, on the importance of EU research: collaboration and the income we receive. As we speak, the total EU research grants and the contract income for Wales is around £46 million. Others in this Chamber will reassure us that that money can be found elsewhere. I’m glad they are so confident. I’d like to know where it is going to come from. But that is significant, that’s 20 per cent of our income in terms of research, and it’s why we are doing so well at the moment. I’ll stop on that point, because many of the points that I was going to make have been made already. But we do need to get this right here ongoing. But I come back to the context in which we are speaking, which is being an internationally attractive destination for students from the EU but also wider afield. We need to retain that and the expertise that comes with it.

I think the relevance of higher education in Wales can be demonstrated by the recent announcement from Cardiff University to spend £23 million on a new maths and computing building and £32 million on new student accommodation. Indeed, the face of Cardiff has been transformed in the last 10 or 20 years, much of it by the investment from our principal university, and I’m delighted to say I’m a graduate of that university.

I think it’s really important to focus on what will be needed to retain the UK’s universities as probably the second best set of universities in the world after the United States. We are second only to the United States in the number of Nobel prize winners and, if you look at academic citations, we’re miles ahead of any other country with the sole exception, again, of the United States. I mean, we really are a world leader. Incidentally, it’s on relatively modest investment in terms of the total funds required. In preparation for this debate, I did look at the Universities UK website and there are four essential requirements really for the sort of university sector we will need and what that will require to thrive in a post-Brexit environment.

International research collaboration is absolutely key, and it should not surprise anyone, but we are likely to be in a world that is moving away from the natural desire to co-operate with our neighbours, and any shift towards a closed world—. And we’ve heard how visa policy is a very practical way of creating certain unintended consequences. But also as an attractive place to come and study and have a future career, possibly, if you’re in that elite group that’s going to be leading research on new products and all sorts of things.

Secondly, the UK’s got to be seen as a top destination for students. Now, inevitably, as Indian and Chinese, for instance, universities develop, they will be retaining many of their most distinguished students and that’s not a bad thing. But there will be more competition in general for that elite sector of international students. Basically, we are the second destination of choice at the moment, again, second only to the United States, and we have to work very hard to ensure that we retain that.

Thirdly, we have to invest in the research base. That is why our universities are so exceptional. Most of us here were undergraduates and it’s very important, the undergraduate education that is provided by our great universities, but it is actually—. They do that as a consequence really, as a very pleasant secondary effect, of having outstanding research. That’s why they have the lead in the pursuit of knowledge. Without that research base, you will soon lose the ability to educate undergraduates to a high level.

Staff and students need to access international opportunities. I was very fortunate to have a year’s study as a postgraduate in Virginia and I had a particular interest when I was there in the American constitution and federalism. Now, for good or ill, I’ve used it in a UK and a Welsh context, and probably bored you silly on all those matters over the years, but it was basically as a result of my study abroad.

So, I come down to—you know, there are great educational and cultural changes occurring in the world. I’ve mentioned internationalism. The move away from the excoriating experiences of two world wars and then building strength in methods of international co-operation—and education was key to that, as was building international institutions as well. The respect for evidence—. You know, this is the enlightenment—well, that’s what it’s based on, a respect for evidence. I don’t want to bore you about the Tory empiric tradition, but I think it is important to establish what can be tested, what works, and to take that evidence and to accept evidence, sometimes, that perhaps was rather against your initial hypothesis. Above all, the pursuit of knowledge—it is the pursuit of knowledge that improves human outcomes and has led to the most astonishing advances, many of which could not be predicted but occurred as a result of that natural spark, and that’s what we should be pursuing rather than the will-o’-the-wisp, for instance, of a slogan like ‘take back control’.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Kirsty Williams.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Could I begin by assuring David Melding that I for one will never be bored and tired of you using the F-word—federalism—here in this Chamber, David? Can I also thank Plaid Cymru for tabling the motion this afternoon and for the very many valuable contributions of Members? The debate has given us the opportunity to discuss and recognise the vitally important role of the higher education sector in Wales.

Our institutions are national assets that are held in high regard throughout the world, and it is important that we take time to recognise the significant contribution that they make to our economic, social and cultural wellbeing. I am committed to the local, national and international success of our universities. Therefore, this afternoon, the Government will support the motion. I and Welsh Government colleagues continue to work with university leaders and counterparts in other UK Governments to advance the interests of our higher education institutions in a UK, EU, and global context. This includes, but is not limited to, research, innovation and student mobility.

We share the views expressed by many Members here today that students, researchers and academics should continue to be able to access the benefits of international collaboration and exchanges and the important sources of funding that EU programmes provide. The Government, therefore, will not support the Conservative amendment, which weakens the commitment to pursue the best possible outcome for Wales and for Welsh HEIs from the upcoming Brexit negotiations.

Higher education is integral to our sense of self, our sense of history and inquiry, and to our place in the world. Our universities and colleges train our teachers, our doctors, our nurses, our linguists, our artists and our engineers and those who can inspire and train others to pursue their goals and to realise their dreams. But, as much as I am a cheerleader for Welsh higher education, it is also my duty to challenge and sometimes cajole vice-chancellors and chairs. I have spoken previously about the need for our institutions to recognise their civic mission and their importance to society. I want them to recapture their roles as stewards of community, city and country. They should be of their place and of their people. It is from this stewardship that universities will fulfil their national, civic and international roles and responsibilities and it is then our job, as a Government, to share the risks and benefits from investment, policy reform and future skills needs.

Now, there are many other challenges facing the sector, but they are similar to the other key sectors in facing the uncertainty from Brexit, the marketisation approach favoured by the Government in England, and wider economic and societal trends. Of course, there are also many opportunities, and our response to Diamond will introduce a stable and sustainable funding regime and broad system of student support that will be the first of its kind in the UK and possibly a first for Europe. I am also considering the report on post-compulsory education and training systems in Wales that was submitted by Professor Hazelkorn last year. I plan to announce the Welsh Government’s response to the report shortly.

The vote to leave the EU presents particular challenges for the HE sector, and not everything is within the powers of the Welsh Government. Therefore, just before Christmas, I and the Minister for Skills and Science convened a meeting of all four higher education Ministers from across the UK administrations. Although each of us represented different Governments, nations, and, indeed, political parties, we were able, I’m pleased to say, to find common ground, particularly on international higher education issues. I am keen to pursue this pan-UK collaboration and how each Government can work together and with our sectors. I am confident that we can then better support our universities with continuing and new relations and opportunities across the UK and with partners in the European Union.

It is, as has been said this afternoon, essential to remember that our universities operate in a highly competitive international sector. Institutions across the UK, Europe, and around the world compete for students, for staff and for research opportunities. So, whilst we continue to promote and protect the stability and sustainability of our sector, the UK Government must also—they have to—recognise that, although they spend the vast majority of their higher education time thinking about England and English issues, they do also have a UK-wide responsibility on international and research funding matters. The four governments of the UK need to work together on such issues, which further underlines the need for UK-wide representation on the new UKRI board. It simply does not make sense for our nation to walk away from the funding opportunities presented by Horizon 2020. We are the second biggest recipient of those funds behind Germany, and we also remember how important structural funds have been to the higher education sector in Wales.

Now, those who campaigned for an EU exit, and those who were persuaded by that campaign, did so on the promise that it would not be to the detriment of Wales, and I believe we are entitled to not a penny less of the structural funds money that has come to this country and has supported our Welsh institutions to be the institutions that they are today.

This motion today recognises: firstly, the importance of our HEIs in Wales for participation in EU programmes and accessing EU funding, as well as the importance of international students and staff; and secondly, the UK Government’s responsibility for ensuring that the HE sector is not damaged as a result of its approach to immigration policy and the EU.

Let me be absolutely clear, Presiding Officer: Wales welcomes students and staff from across Europe and across the world. Our universities and our communities benefit from that diversity and that dynamism. Our own students benefit from the opportunities such as Erasmus that have let them share their experiences across Europe. I and this Government will do all that we can to support the future of such opportunities and openness in the sector. It has been a disgrace that post-work visa opportunities have only been available to four places in England with no consultation with either this Government or the Scottish Government. Student figures have to be taken out of immigration and migrant figures, and there should be no linking of visas to the forthcoming teaching excellence framework. It would be disastrous.

The motion identifies important areas where universities need the UK Government to take action that will safeguard the future sustainability of the sector. The Welsh Government can support that cause and support the motion. Thank you.

I call on Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. May I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate? I think the number of contributors has reflected the importance of the issue that we’re discussing and the concern that many of us have on the possible impact on HE institutions in Wales as well as on FE here in Wales and the broader economy. In my opening remarks I failed to refer to the Conservative amendment. We won’t be supporting amendment 1 for the reasons that have already been outlined. It does weaken the original motion. Of course, I would argue that the original motion is stronger than the amendment tabled.

Darren Millar referred to research sources beyond Horizon 2020, and that’s a fair point, of course. There are alternative sources beyond European funding, but the truth is that post-92 institutions, as they’re described, are more reliant on European funding than some of the other institutions. They are more exposed to the risk that comes from endangering the future of European funds. What’s required, therefore, is investment. If that funding is to be lost, then we do need to develop alternative income sources, and we need investment to do that, of course. In the current climate in this sector, where we see cuts and underfunding and so on, finding that additional source is quite a challenge. One university has described it as a need to have some sort of bridging loan in order to invest for development. It’s possible that the Welsh Government—taking into account the Cabinet Secretary’s comments on the role of the UK Government to look beyond the situation in England alone—should also consider making a contribution to that end.

I won’t pursue all the points made by all contributors, but Simon Thomas did remind us that one job is created for every three students from beyond the European Union in Wales, and one job for every five students from the European Union is created. But it’s not just the economic contribution—and that is a significant contribution—there’s also the intellectual contribution, as he reminded us, in terms of the students bringing their diverse perspectives and experiences and so on.

Michelle Brown suggested that universities should cast their nets more widely; it’s difficult to do that when the Westminster Government restricts the numbers that can actually come here, so I’m not sure how you can rationalise that. Huw Irranca-Davies was quite right in reminding us that it’s not just academic staff that we’re talking about when we are talking of international staff; there is an important cohort that make contributions in alternative ways too.

In preparing for this debate, I discovered that Bangor University, for example, is among the 100 most international universities in the world, according to the ‘Times Higher Education’. [Interruption.] ‘Of course’, I hear from a few in this Chamber, and why not, indeed? Cardiff Metropolitan University is on the top of all UK universities when it comes to providing support to international students in the past year, and indeed, on five previous occasions. I’m sure that all universities have their own stories to tell in terms of student numbers from the EU and beyond; their contribution, European funding, the benefit of student portability and the benefits to research and development and so on.

But, on this point, in terms of making applications to universities, I know of one university in Wales where applications from EU students are down 32 per cent—32 per cent. That’s a third. Now, what does that tell us about the impact of Brexit on HE in Wales? What does that tell us about what we need to do to ensure that the benefits that we accrue from the international relations that we have at present do continue and are indeed strengthened? What does that tell us about the need—and I hope you will agree with me—to support this motion this afternoon?

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.