8. What percentage of the Welsh Government's budget is allocated to the prevention of fraud? OAQ(5)0385(FM)

Given the integrated nature of the internal control measures designed into systems and processes for the purpose of identifying potential fraud, it is not possible to measure what percentage our spend actually is, but there is, of course, a counter-fraud unit in the Welsh Government, headed up by a retired police officer.

Diolch. Do you not think that it’s ironic that your leader, Jeremy Corbyn, was talking about a rigged system this month, because, in Wales, it’s Labour that’s rigged the system? You shipped in David Goldstone, a Labour donor, to stay in the Hilton as an adviser. You splurged millions on Kancoat; it had a weak business case, but just happened to be next to the former Minister’s constituency. Kukd.com got a massive grant and is now being investigated by HM Revenue and Customs for tax irregularities—again, the company providing the guarantee to them gave a donation to the Labour Party. Cardiff Aviation doesn’t pay any rent, and yet your party are throwing people out of their homes if they can’t pay bedroom tax. Are you happy with all this? Are you happy, First Minister, with all this?

The Member is probably wise in not repeating those allegations outside of the Chamber, I expect. He has an unhappy history of libel trials, as we know. From our perspective, all we got—it was just a stream of consciousness as far as I can tell. In terms of appointments, they are done openly. He has criticised, for example, the appointment of the ombudsman; the ombudsman was appointed with a Plaid Cymru Member on the board that appointed the ombudsman. The appointments are made by the Assembly, not by Government, in many, many cases. We have had instances where we’ve investigated fraud; that is inevitable, I suppose, whenever you get a large organisation in being, and those investigations are taken forward regardless of who is the subject of those investigations. If he’s suggesting that, somehow, Welsh Government advisers have been involved in fraud, which is the tone of his investigation, then he needs to make his allegations known to the appropriate authorities, or provide evidence to back that up. This is not the current US Government that we’re talking about here; this is Wales.

First Minister, in the allocation of Welsh Government funding grants to our businesses and our organisations, one hopes that there are sufficient checks and monitoring process on the use of our taxpayers’ money. Now, questions have arisen recently over Kukd, Kancoat and the AWEMA scandal, and I am aware of £900,000 in north Wales where two directors of a bus company faced criminal action, actually. I’m also aware of 10 to 12 cases under investigation now on how the money has been used—funding that they’ve had from this Government. How can I reassure my constituents in Aberconwy that you do take these matters very seriously, and that in all financial transactions between you and any organisations or businesses, they can feel confident that you will always maintain strict financial probity at the heart of Welsh Government funding and the use of our taxpayers’ money?

That’s a perfectly fair question, and the answer I give is this: as I said, we have a counter-fraud unit headed by a retired police officer with experience of leading economic crime and proceeds of crime recovery units. He’s also a member of the organising committee for the Wales Fraud Forum. It’s also supported by administration staff. The unit is not a big unit, but it does play a leadership role and draws on considerable support from all audit, assurance and finance professionals. Is it possible to prevent all crime? No, clearly. But what is important is that that crime is detected, investigated and prosecuted, and the fact that there have been instances of investigation is a sign, I hope, that the Member can see that we do take all allegations of fraud seriously, and they are investigated and indeed prosecuted where that’s appropriate.

Thank you, First Minister.