The next item on our agenda is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Education on reducing infant class sizes and raising standards, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Kirsty Williams.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Since becoming Cabinet Secretary, it has been a privilege to visit schools and meet teachers, pupils and parents right across the country. A particular highlight was the opening of the new school at Llandysul. Like colleagues across this Chamber, I’m always impressed by the dedication, the enthusiasm and the ambition expressed by the vast majority of the teaching profession, not just for their own school and pupils, but for young people everywhere in our education system. As I have stated in this Chamber before, I am clear that no school or education system can be stronger than its teachers and their teaching. That is why we need to give teachers and school leaders the tools they need for the job. This includes transforming initial teacher training education, launching new professional standards, a national approach to professional learning and development, and incentivising new and mature graduates into the profession.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Time and time again, parents and teachers tell me that they are concerned about class sizes. We have listened to these concerns, looked at the international evidence, and are today announcing the details of a new £36 million fund to address infant class sizes. This investment, linked to our other reforms, will improve early years attainment, have a significant impact for poorer and disadvantaged pupils, and support teachers to be innovative and to increase pupil engagement.

Now, too often, discussion concerning class sizes contracts to a false choice between smaller classes and other education improvement policies. I don’t accept this narrow view of class sizes as an irrelevant factor in the performance and the well-being of our young people. But, Deputy Presiding Officer, nor do I offer it as a magic bullet for our education system. It is not a policy that will be delivered in isolation. Having reviewed international research and evidence, it shows that the effects of a reduction in class sizes are greatest in the youngest age group. We also know that the impact is stronger for pupils from poorer and/or minority-language backgrounds. And, a reduction has the largest effect when accompanied by changes and reforms to teaching and pedagogy.

Therefore, based on the evidence, our investment of both revenue and capital funding will target schools with the largest class sizes, where teaching and learning needs to improve, where there are high levels of deprivation and where English or Welsh is not the first language.

The most significant UK-based research into class sizes was conducted by the world-leading Institute of Education at the University College London. Tracking over 20,000 pupils in over 500 classes across 300 schools, the research concluded that there was a very clear effect of class sizes on academic achievement during early years and that pupils from lower-attainment groups benefitted in particular from smaller classes. These results are comparable to similar projects and policy interventions conducted in North America.

In 2003, Estyn reported that, for certain groups of children—in particular, youngest children, those with special needs, those being taught in a language other than their first, and those who live in areas of high social and cultural disadvantage—there were benefits to be gained from being taught as part of a small group. Estyn recommended then that if it was decided to pursue a policy of further reduction in class sizes, these groups of children should be targeted.

We are taking a strategic view of what can be achieved through this investment. In bidding for funding, to ensure that it reaches the front line and where it is most needed, the criteria will include: schools with class sizes of 29 or more; high levels of free school meals; below-average outcomes, and where a school is judged to be red or amber in our national categorisation; high levels of additional learning needs; high levels of where English or Welsh is not the first language; and possible co-location and integrated delivery of the foundation phase with our Government’s childcare offer.

Local authorities, via consortia, will bid for funding to support schools against this criteria. In doing so, they would need to submit a business case for each proposal, which would also include details of what additional help is going into those schools and the current focus of PDG and education improvement grant. Each business case would also have to include specific outcomes in relation to improvements in performance, attendance, teacher-pupil ratios and sustainability. Bids will need to take into account a wide range of data, including school capacity, teacher-to-pupil ratios, attendance, performance—including the performance of children on free school meals—categorisation, school action and the number of SEN-statemented pupils.

Additional teachers secured through the reduction in class sizes would support compliance with foundation ratios and, importantly, it would also provide additional qualified teacher time, which is crucial for the effective implementation of the foundation phase pedagogy. There is a clear link between my announcement and the development of our childcare offer. I will expect bids to consider joint working and efficiencies on capital projects where there is a need for additional childcare facilities, as well as additional infant classrooms to deliver foundation phase.

Deputy Presiding Officer, to conclude, our education reforms seek to raise standards, reduce the attainment gap and deliver an education system that is a source of national pride and national confidence. Today, we are responding to the concerns of parents and teachers, delivering a ‘made in Wales’ policy shaped by international evidence and guaranteeing £36 million of investment that will reduce infant class sizes so that we raise standards for all.

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement? I know that she’s got some long-standing views on this issue, and it’s probably the hook by which she cornered Carwyn to get into his Cabinet—it surely helped to broker their deal. But when it comes to evidence-based policy making, I really cannot understand why the Cabinet Secretary is pursuing this particular issue.

We heard evidence, as an Assembly, from Professor David Reynolds, an eminent education expert and adviser to the Welsh Government, just six months ago, and the evidence suggested that a focus on reducing class sizes to 25 was not the way to improve standards, and in terms of delivering results on investments, there were much more productive ways of spending money in primary education. It’s not just David Reynolds—you’ve got Her Majesty’s chief inspector of schools at Estyn also saying that classroom size, and I quote,

‘doesn’t seem to be a big factor in our inspection outcomes’.

In fact, he says that reducing classes to 25 or under is going to make little difference.

And the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, which has been the subject of much debate in this Chamber recently, particularly since the Programme for International Student Assessment results were published, has also said, and I quote, that

‘the size of the class is unrelated to the school system’s overall performance’.

So, you’ve got many voices—a chorus of voices—that are saying, ‘Look, if you want the best bang for your buck, spending cash on reducing class sizes, whilst very attractive and no doubt may make managing classes easier, is not the best way to invest that money.’ In fact, the Sutton Trust, a formative education charity, dedicated to improving social mobility—an aim that we all share in this Chamber—through education, has said that it is one of the least effective ways of improving school performance.

Of course, there have been many on the Government backbenches who have expressed concerns about this policy. None of them are here today—I wonder whether this is why there’s been a bit of an exodus from the Chamber on the Government backbenches during your statement.

So, I just wonder, Minister, what advice you sought and what advice was given by Government officials in the development of this particular policy, or was this something that you were determined to steamroller through, regardless of the advice that you might be given by officials? Can I also ask, because you didn’t make any reference to them in your statement, what advice was sought from the regional education consortia in the development of the policy? I’m sure that they would have many other priority areas that they might wish to spend £36 million in had they been given the option.

I also wonder about the arithmetic and how you’ve worked out that it’s £36 million that’s required in order to deliver the aims of your policy. We know that you’ve split this cash now over a four-year period, and you’ve split it in two between capital expenditure and investment on the revenue side, but, surely, if there’s going to be investment on the revenue side, there are going to be continuous costs beyond the four-year window, which you appear to have been committed to. Can you tell us how you expect those schools—? Do you want to just pull the plug on any additional revenue costs and any additional staffing that they’ve put in place in order to achieve this policy post that four-year period? I mean, how are you expecting them to be able to cope?

And what rationale do you have for the £20 million? It looks to me as though you’ve just put a finger up in the air and said, ‘I think it’s about £20 million that we’re going to need to invest in school buildings.’ I’ve seen no evidence anywhere in Wales that that is the sum of money that would need to be given and invested in our school system in order to achieve this particular policy, and I can’t see either any evidence that it’s £16 million that would be required in order to reduce class sizes across Wales to make sure that they’re all under 25. So, I’d very much appreciate seeing some more evidence around that from you.

In addition, I just wonder if you could tell us about the rationale behind effectively making the call for more teachers, and putting further pressure on teacher recruitment, at a time when we’re beginning to see the unfolding of a bit of a crisis when it comes to teacher recruitment here in Wales. We know that for certain subjects in secondary schools there are problems, but there are also problems on the primary school end as well, particularly in the Welsh-medium sector, where we’ve seen evidence that has just been published very recently showing that the number of students completing teacher training through the medium of Welsh has been falling—in fact, it has almost halved over the past three years. That’s a big concern to me, and I just do not know how you’re going to achieve these additional teachers, who need to be going into the system anyway to refresh those who are leaving—who are departing sometimes because they are discouraged and sometimes because it’s a job that they don’t feel that they want to do anymore, or because they’re retiring. How are you going to recruit these additional staff in order to plug these gaps and realise this particular policy?

I don’t know what assessment you’ve made of local authorities’ ability to be able to construct extra classrooms on particular school sites either. I see no evidence—no evidence whatsoever—that this is the right way forward.

Can you tell me as well, given the Estyn report’s publication today, which identified the quality of teaching and leadership as being the two big issues that it found through its inspection processes as being the problems and challenges in Wales, what proportion of this cash, if any, is going to be invested in leadership and is going to be invested in continuing professional development? I note in your statement that you make reference to some of the other actions that the Government is taking, but you didn’t mention the national leadership academy, you didn’t mention some of the other incentives that you might want to give to bring new people into the teaching profession, but those are things that I believe are more pressing and need to be addressed. So I just wonder what you are doing to address those problems as well, because they, to me, seem to be far more pressing than trying to reduce class sizes to 25 when the evidence just isn’t there to support your claims that this is going to be the big game-changer. I also have to say, Cabinet Secretary—

Can you come to a conclusion, please?

This is my final, final point. I have to say, Cabinet Secretary, I’ve been an Assembly Member for 10 years now and not one person has ever, on the doorstep, and not one teacher, either, has ever spoken to me to say that class size is the pressing issue that we need to address in Wales. And I have to say, I agree with Julie Morgan on that: no-one has spoken to her, either, in the years that she has been an MP or AM. So I wonder where this pressing issue is in your postbag, because there’s no evidence of it in mine.

Thank you very much, and can I thank Darren for his questions this afternoon? If I can try to get through them all, he began by quoting the evidence of Professor David Reynolds, and I would note that Professor Reynolds made those comments without any detailed knowledge of the policy announcement. In fact, those of you who watched the ITV news last night would have seen Professor David Reynolds supporting wholeheartedly the policy and the approach that was announced by the Government. So, Professor Reynolds fully endorses the approach that I am taking.

You then moved on to the issue of Estyn, and I addressed that in my opening comments. Estyn did say in 2003 that, if a policy of class-size reduction was to be engaged in and pursued, it had to target specific learners where Estyn recognised that the benefit was greatest. Those are our youngest children, those are our poorest children, and those are our children who are in our schools for whom Welsh or English is not their first language. I am following the advice that Estyn provided in 2003 and am targeting the resources in such a way.

Now, then, you also quoted the Sutton Trust. The Sutton Trust said that using the pupil premium in England and the pupil deprivation grant in Wales to cut class sizes was not the optimum way to use that resource. And I am not using PDG money to reduce class sizes. So I am, again, following absolutely the advice that was supplied by the Sutton Trust. And then Darren went on to talk about the OECD. Can I tell you what the OECD said only last month with regard to class sizes? It said this in its full report:

‘On average across OECD countries, students in smaller classes reported more frequently than students in larger classes that their teachers adapt their instruction to students’ needs, knowledge and level of understanding.’

Only today, in Estyn’s report, we have seen that we are not doing enough for our more able and talented children. The ability of a teacher to differentiate in the classroom to meet the needs of all students—all students: those who are falling behind, those with additional learning needs or who are more able and talented, and I must say we need to find a better way of expressing that particular group of children—. We are better able to do that if teachers have fewer children in their classroom. Teaching does not exist, teaching does not happen in a vacuum. The quality of teaching, Darren, is influenced by its context—any teacher will tell you that—such as class sizes, the opportunity to innovate in the classroom, to employ different ways of teaching because you have fewer students in your classroom, as well as pupil interaction and class behaviour. It does not operate in a vacuum. And I don’t know what teachers you’re talking to, and I don’t know what teaching unions you’re talking to, but can I remind you that, not so long ago, teachers in England were on strike and their primary reason for doing so was concern over class sizes. So, I don’t know which schools you’re visiting, I don’t know which schoolteachers you’re talking to, but, believe me, this is an issue for our teaching profession.

You say, ‘Where are we going to get these teachers from?’ Well, again, evidence shows that reducing class sizes is a crucial element in the recruitment and retention of teachers. Maybe we won’t be losing some of our teachers if we address these concerns. Maybe we can attract more people into the profession because they will know they will be practising their craft and their skills in an environment that allows them to do that, not in an environment that confines their ability to be the professionals that they want to be.

You talked about who we have discussed this with. Now, believe me, Darren, I would have liked to have got this policy out of the door on day one, but the reason it has taken us this time is because we have been discussing at length with local authorities and with the regional consortia the best way of addressing this issue. We have been studying the evidence. We have been refining our ability to influence this agenda and working with our partners—because it won’t be us that’s delivering this, it’ll be coming from the sector—on how best to do it. Therefore, the approach that we’re taking is fully informed, and the figures that we have been able to put together are fully informed by feedback that my officials have had from talking to regional consortia and talking to individual local authorities.

Now, you’re quite right, and I said so in my statement, that on its own, this is not the silver bullet to address the issues that we need to address in the Welsh education system, and I don’t minimise what those issues are, Darren; you know I don’t. I am fully aware of the challenges that we face, but as I said in my opening statement, this policy is not the only policy we are pursuing. With regard to improving teaching and teaching standards, we have already announced and we are already part of a huge reform programme for initial teacher education. Only yesterday, I was meeting with Trinity Saint David to hear about the changes that they’re making now, and the changes they will continue to make to make teacher training better than it has been.

We are working now with Professor Mick Waters to develop a new set of professional teaching standards and headteaching standards that will be published in the spring. You know that I am establishing my leadership academies so that we get leadership right. To say that this is the only thing we’re doing is to completely misunderstand the reform regime that we are currently developing, implementing and driving forward, of which this will form a part.

Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, for the opportunity to ask a few questions, if there’s any time left to do so.

I too start with this issue of evidence, because some quotes have been provided—and some of them I intended to refer to—but you did admit that this was no magic bullet, and I understand that. But we are in a situation where resources are scarce and therefore we have to prioritise resources where we’re confident they will have the greatest possible impact. Therefore, the weight of evidence, in my view, suggests that there are far more magic bullets that you could be firing with £36 million.

Now, I was going to quote Estyn, and this is very timely bearing in mind the report that we’ve seen published today, with an emphasis on improving standards as a strategically important issue. But, of course, I am slightly shocked that you have to rely on an Estyn report from 2003. That was almost in another age. I was still using a fax machine in those days, and the world has changed since then. Certainly, that report wouldn’t be the basis for the proposal before us today. If I recall correctly, in 2003 the Liberal Democrats were responsible for education in the Welsh Government, so if it was such an issue at that point, then it is regrettable that they didn’t decide to tackle it at that time. They were certainly in Government in 2003. [Interruption.] Well, it isn’t my debate; you can respond when your time comes.

The Labour manifesto committed to spend £100 million on improving standards. Can you confirm once and for all that the £36 million that you announced yesterday, but you are informing us of in the Chamber today, will come from that figure? I ask because we know what the view of some Labour Assembly Members is about the prospect of using those funds to this end. It is something that was criticised harshly by many of them last year.

Now, there is some evidence that states that if you do get the class size down to 20 or fewer, then you will possibly see some impact, some real impact. Now, according to your manifesto, of course, as a Liberal Democrat, you set a target of 25 for class sizes. It isn’t explicit in this statement, I have to say—can you confirm that that is still the target? Can you confirm that you won’t support bids, for example, unless they actually lead to an outcome of a class smaller than 25? Can you also tell us that it is your intention to roll this out ultimately across Wales and by when you would expect or hope to achieve that?

You also say in your statement that the evidence suggests—and it’s evidence according to you—that an investment such as this does have the greatest impact on enhancing attainment in the early years. I don’t see this statement being explicit that the funding available is specifically for the early years. Certainly, it isn’t one of the elements in the criteria. I assume that you would want to confirm if you are targeting the early years only; otherwise, of course, you are admitting that you are not using the funding to its most effective purpose.

There is a bare figure of £36 million in the statement. It appears as though there have been some press reports as to the profile of that expenditure. It is certainly not included in the statement, and it’s not in any information that I’ve received as an Assembly Member on this issue. I understand that there is a capital-revenue split; reference has been made to that, and I think you were asked on what basis that was done, but I’m not sure if I heard an answer to that. And there is this question as to the sustainability of the investment, which is another issue where we need greater clarity. The word ‘sustainability’ appears in the statement, but aren’t you saying that you’re expecting the schools to pay, ultimately? Shouldn’t you say that clearly if that’s the case? It appears to me that this funding is for a specific period and, after that, that investment will ultimately become a cut, and we will lose the value of the investment unless the local authority or the individual school can continue to make those payments themselves.

Finally from me—and I’ve raised this with you previously in the committee—is there a risk that you will see not smaller class sizes, but more teaching assistants? I know of some examples, and I know that there’s an element of capital spend here, but I know that there are a number of schools where they simply don’t have the space for provision beyond the classes that they currently have. I don’t think that the capital sum put forward here is sufficient to meet the needs—you may agree with that—and I would like to know whether there is any strategic relationship between the capital funding you refer to here and the twenty-first century schools programme, because in the majority of schools, I believe, where there are such limitations, it is capital problems that account for them very often.

Thank you very much to Llyr. Llyr, all I can say is if you want to argue for larger classes alongside the Welsh Conservatives, that’s your prerogative; that’s not what this Government is about. You ask, ‘Why are you referring to an Estyn report in 2003?’ That’s the last time that Estyn did substantive work on this issue. But can I tell you, there have been a number of international studies carried out over a long period of time up until now—I’ll send you the details of the exact studies—and only three out of over 100 studies actually did not find the evidence? So, the overwhelming conclusive evidence from international studies is this makes a difference. I would say to the Member, examples of education systems that have undertaken class-size reductions and smaller class policies in recent years include Denmark, Finland, Israel, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Sweden, Tennessee in the United States, Wisconsin in the United States, California, Ontario province in Canada, as well as other parts. The examples of institutions that have produced positive research include universities across the world.

The Member said that the Liberal Democrats were in charge of education when we were in the coalition. I’m trying to remember back, but if my recollection is correct, we were never in charge. Arts, culture, libraries—yes. Economic development and rural affairs—yes. Actually, if I could remind the Member—and you can go back and have a look—there was indeed, as part of that coalition, an infant class size reduction policy that was pursued by that Government and there was dedicated funding that was made available by that coalition Government to implement that policy. What is perhaps more curious, Llyr, is what happened to the commitment in the One Wales Government, to which Simon Thomas was a special adviser—and you can look up the document on the internet—that said that that Government would reduce class sizes? I’d be quite interested to know what action actually happened in the One Wales Government. Hmm—maybe not so much.

The Member is quite right to quote the Liberal Democrat manifesto commitment at me, and, if he did it in full, he would know it said we would start with the largest classes first. I would love to reduce class sizes for all of our children, but I have to do that in the context of the budgets that are available to me, and the Member says I need to use best value for money and that is why we will target those classes where the evidence says it will make a difference. So, we will start with the largest classes first, and I will say quite clearly again, if I didn’t say it clearly enough: this money will be available for infant class sizes, because that’s where the evidence tells us, if we’re to get best value for money, then that’s where we need to target our support.

The Member is quite right to talk about sustainability; that’s why it’s mentioned in the statement. I don’t want to create problems for school budgets, and I’m sorry I did not answer Darren Millar’s question about what happens after four years. I don’t know what’ll happen at the end of this period of Government, in four years’ time. I can only talk about what this Government will do for the next four years. What happens after that will be the preserve of a different Government, a different education Minister—who knows? All I can do is talk about what I will do and what this Government will do while we’re in office. That’s why it is for four years. I can’t commit beyond that, because there’ll be an election and who knows what’ll happen after that?

The Member has asked about the £100 million; £6 million of this policy will come out of the additional £100 million that has been made available for school standards and the rest of the budget—the £30 million—will be out of the education budget that I am in charge of.

Cabinet Secretary, I welcome the announcement from the Welsh Government of the new £36 million fund to address infant class sizes. Nobody can seriously argue—apart from one or two Members present—that it is desirable that 7.6 per cent of infants school pupils in Wales are in classes of more than 30. That is 8,196 young children vying for the attention and support of their teachers and teaching assistants in a packed classroom. Estyn have been categorical that this is a policy that most benefits the most disadvantaged pupils and pupils whose first language is not English or Welsh.

The Welsh Government is to be commended on following the evidence to ensure that this money is targeted properly to raise standards for all of our pupils. I’m heartened that the new fund will also have at its heart targeting schools where there are high levels of deprivation. For a constituency like mine, it is imperative that we seek to tackle the cycle of poverty that limits the educational and life opportunities of young children, especially within the communities of Islwyn.

I would ask for clarification, however, on the process of bidding that is required to access this funding. Your statement references that local authorities, via consortia, will bid for funding to support schools against the prescribed criteria. Those criteria include business cases being made that take into account a wide range of data, including school capacity, teacher-to-pupil ratio, attendance performance, including free school meals performance, categorisation, school action and the number of special educational needs statemented pupils. What reassurance, then, can the Cabinet Secretary give me, and can you give to, as well, educationists, practitioners and local authorities that have expressed concern at a potential extra tier of bureaucracy acting as a barrier between getting the money from Welsh Government into the classroom? Thank you.

Could I thank Rhianon for her welcome of the initiative? I think if you look at the statistics about where we have particularly large class sizes in the infants sector in Wales, in constituencies such as yours, but also here in the capital, we have some of the highest proportion of young children being taught in classes over the size of 30.

The international evidence, and one of the studies that took place in Ontario, and the university in Ontario, recognised that this policy, alongside other policies, was particularly beneficial to more deprived children. We have to recognise that children coming into our education system do not all have the same advantages. Therefore, I believe there is a legitimate role for Government in its education system to try and address the differences, and to address that disadvantage. I think that is a legitimate role of the state, and, as a liberal who doesn’t like too much intervention of the state in things, for me, this is one legitimate role of intervention of the state to try and redress that balance for those children. Because sometimes, through no fault of their own, those children have got nobody else to fight for them, and that’s our job here.

Now, there is a balance to be struck between making funds available but also making sure that they’re used for the correct resources. We will try and get the money out to the front end as quickly as possible via, as I said, working with our local authority partners and our regional consortia. If they find that the current process that we have in place for the first round is too bureaucratic, then I’m always willing to look to refine that as we take the grant forward. So, if there are concerns about the level of bureaucracy associated with the grant, then I’m always very happy to look at that, but there’s a balance to be struck between satisfying yourself that it’s being used for the proper purposes and making sure we have the evidence to carry the policy forward. Because we’ll be looking for outcomes and differences that this investment is making, because we constantly have to test ourselves that the decisions we’re making are leading to outcomes that we would want. So, we need to evaluate our own performance in making these policy decisions.

To answer Llyr Griffiths’s question about capital, there is a split between revenue and capital, because I recognise very much what Llyr said, that sometimes there is an issue around sheer space that causes problems. What I’m particularly interested in doing is looking at that in the context of the childcare offer as well. We know the childcare offer will be rolled out in the years to come, and there is a great opportunity to have synergy here between our foundation phase offer as well as our childcare offer. If we can do that on the same site, that’s also got to be beneficial for parents as well if they can access all the interventions and support for their children in one particular area.

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. You’re quite right that class size is a relevant factor for the educational attainment of children, and the Cabinet Secretary is also correct when she admits that class size isn’t the only factor that needs dealing with. What I wonder is why this initiative only attempts to deal with the issue of class sizes to improve education for infants. What will the Cabinet Secretary do to reduce class sizes at primary school level?

You’ve told us that other steps will be taken, but there are no details of any, and as yet no funding proposed for them. Can you also give us some more details on what exactly is meant by high levels of additional learning needs, and specifically what you mean by ‘high levels’? At what point will the Cabinet Secretary consider a school to have high levels of additional learning needs, or free school meals, et cetera?

Finally, you talk about local authorities having to bid for the money and make a business case. I think the parent of any child at a failing school that doesn’t get any of the new funds won’t be satisfied with the explanations that their child’s school, and therefore their needs by inference, failed to reach the Cabinet member’s business case threshold. These are children, not business assets or liabilities, and I’m sure you’ll agree with me that all children have the right to a decent education, whichever school they’re in and regardless of the school’s circumstances or status. How are you going to improve performance at a failing school that doesn’t present a sufficiently good business case to reduce class sizes? With those concerns in mind, will you bring any proposals as to how funding will be awarded back to this Chamber for endorsement by the Assembly Members before the criteria are implemented? Thank you.

I thank Michelle Brown for her questions and her recognition that this is a live issue for parents and for teachers, and I agree with her. Michelle asked about why this is only being used for infants. As I’ve explained, I would love to cut class sizes right the way across the education sector, but I have to do it in a way that is cognisant of the budgets that are available to me, cognisant of the fact that there are other programmes that we need to fund to improve education in Wales, and to follow the evidence. This is where the evidence says this money will make the biggest difference. Michelle asked about classes with large numbers of additional learning needs. We do know that some schools do have a higher than national average proportion of children with additional learning needs in that classroom, and that, again, is an area where we know that this money will make the biggest difference, so we will be looking at whether certain classes, where they have large numbers of pupils in them, but also have a significant proportion or a higher number than average of children with additional learning needs—at whether they can benefit from this.

The Member is quite right that there are other things that we need to do, and I am perfectly cognisant of that. Again, if I can quote the work that was done by the University of Toronto, and I will quote directly from them,

‘the full gains of class size reduction cannot be achieved if it is implemented without paying attention to other factors that support innovative practice. Some of the most important factors include the ways in which teachers and students work together; the curriculum in use; and teachers’ opportunities to learn new teaching strategies.’

Of course, that’s exactly what we’re doing. When you say you wanted other details, you are aware—and I know, because you’ve met with Professor Donaldson yourself, I understand—of our curriculum reform changes. I’ve already outlined in my statement that we are undertaking a radical reform of initial teacher training. We will publish new teaching standards later on this year. So, this isn’t being taken alone. This, again, is following the best international advice, that this policy is being delivered in conjunction with all the other steps and reforms that we know will make sure that this policy is a successful part of our reform programme. And there are budgets associated with all those programmes. I know you know that because you asked very difficult questions about that when I came to the committee—about how I was spending money on the curriculum. So, I know that you’re aware of what the budget allocations are, because we answered questions in committee on that. Thank you.

I’d like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement here today. As a former teacher myself, just like my colleague Rhianon Passmore, the Member for Islwyn, I know first-hand that this is a key issue for my colleagues in classrooms across Wales. I also know that class size is a really important issue on the doorstep in my constituency, and I’m sure in constituencies across the country too. I particularly welcome the extra detail that you’ve provided here in the Chamber this afternoon around the way that the policy could work with our childcare offer across Wales, too. That was an issue that was actually raised with me on a visit to Craig yr Hesg school, which is a really good pathfinder school in my constituency that actually trains up other schools with excellent practice.

My question for you this afternoon, Cabinet Secretary, is very much in line with the question from my colleague Llyr Gruffydd, and it’s around the practical way that the policy could be implemented. I, too, was concerned about some possible issues around the physical space that would be necessary to split classes in order to deliver the policy and I wonder whether you’d considered how that could possibly be resolved by working with the twenty-first century schools programme that the Government is currently offering?

Thank you for that. I am always very conscious, Deputy Presiding Officer, when answering questions from either Rhianon or Vikki, that they have a professional expertise and experience in the classroom that I’ve never had and I’m always in danger of teaching grandmas to suck eggs, and I wouldn’t want to do that. But, like Vikki says, for many teachers this is an issue, because we know that, if class sizes are smaller, that gives that teacher the ability to introduce new pedagogical approaches to teaching a class that may be cut off to them if their class is of a certain size. So, that is the basis and many of the reasons why we’ve decided to take this forward.

I would be delighted to visit the school that the Member has mentioned. I don’t think I’ve had the opportunity to visit a school in your constituency since taking up this offer, and I’m always very particularly keen to meet schools that are willing to go above and beyond for the pupils of their own school. We need a self-improving school system where people are able to work across schools to drive standards forward. I welcome very much the commitment of teachers in those schools that are willing to do that. What strikes me is that they recognise that not only do they have a responsibility to their children but they have a responsibility to the education system of Wales. If the Member would be good enough to arrange an opportunity to visit, I would be very pleased to go with her to look at the good practice that is on offer there.

You’re quite right; as Llyr Huws Gruffydd mentioned, sometimes the issue around class sizes has arisen because of the sheer physical constraints of a building. The people there know it’s not ideal, but they don’t know what else they can do. That’s why we have listened to that. This budget has a revenue line, as well as a capital line. It will work in conjunction with the twenty-first century schools programme, but we also recognise that some of those projects may have to sit slightly outside, but we will be again looking to make sure that there is sustainability built into that. We don’t want to be putting in classrooms if that school is shortly to be replaced by perhaps a new build. Even more importantly, we build this in conjunction with the childcare offer. We know that’s coming. It’s not a surprise to anybody; and therefore we need to use the resources to build facilities that will help us achieve both policy objectives in a way that is helpful, reinforces the good pedagogical standards that we have in the foundation phase, that they can be replicated and built upon in the childcare offer, as well as providing sites where parents have ease of access so that they can take advantage of both the foundation phase and childcare.

Cabinet Secretary, I do find the criticisms of the lack of an evidence base coming from Plaid Cymru rather ironic when they’ve used the budget process to insist on £50 million for a road scheme with very low benefit to cost ratios to shore up their political base. Any concerns I had about this policy have been assuaged by the changes you’ve made, and I very much welcome the extra targeting that you put in place, and I warmly welcome extra funding for schools. In my constituency, schools have been having to make redundancies last year, and again this year; a £3.7 million cut by the Plaid Cymru council, and a potential 135 members of staff losing their jobs. So, what safeguards can you put in place to make sure that the money that’s going to be targeted at class size reduction isn’t swallowed up by softening the blow of Plaid cuts in Llanelli?

Thank you, Lee, for that. I’m grateful to you, because the constructive challenge that has been referred to in a negative way by some people in this Chamber around the attitude of some people like yourself and Jenny Rathbone has made me go back and absolutely test the evidence about this. It has led to a refinement in the policy, because we want to make sure that we’re getting it right. As I said, I would have loved to have been able to make a big sweeping announcement from day one, but we have taken time to reflect on people’s concerns and to really delve deeply so we can find out where this money will make the difference. I’m grateful; I’m absolutely grateful. A government can only be as good as the challenge it receives, and it is not just the job of opposition parties to challenge the Government. There is an honourable tradition in politics of backbenchers from the governing party providing that challenge, and I welcome it. I don’t see it as something that should be derided by other people around this Chamber. I think it’s good for the political process in Wales that we develop that culture. I think it’s something that has been missing from this Chamber. I don’t see it as a bad thing. I see it as a good thing, and it helps develop better policy. I want to put that on the record, Deputy Presiding Officer.

With regard to what’s happening in individual local authorities, the vast majority of money for education is delivered via the revenue support grant in the local authorities. Previous administrations—the previous Welsh Government—had a target of trying to protect school budgets by 1 per cent. We, in this budget round, have tried to protect local government. Local government themselves have admitted that they had a better settlement than they had been expecting. My expectation is that they deal fairly with schools in their local authority area. I know things are tough for local authorities—I don’t pretend that they’re not—but education has to be a priority for them, and they have to deal fairly with their schools. I would expect to see evidence from local authorities doing just that. This should not be used to plug any gaps. This is additionality, and this should not be used to plug any gaps—that local authorities think that they can pull a fast one by using this money to then be able to cut somewhere else. That's why we'll have a very strict process in looking at how the funds are allocated.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.