The next item on our agenda is the legislative consent motion on the Digital Economy Bill, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to move the motion—Mark Drakeford.

Motion NDM6254 Mark Drakeford

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6 agrees that provisions in the Digital Economy Bill, relating to data sharing in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the National Assembly for Wales, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Llywydd. I move the motion.

Diolch i chi am y cyfle i esbonio cefndir y cynnig cydsyniad deddfwriaethol hwn. Cafodd y Bil Economi Ddigidol ei gyflwyno ar 5 Gorffennaf 2016 gan Lywodraeth y DU. Nod Rhan berthnasol y Bil i’r cynnig cydsyniad deddfwriaethol hwn, Rhan 5, yw gwella darpariaeth ddigidol y Llywodraeth trwy alluogi rhannu data i wella gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, mynd i'r afael â thwyll, rheoli dyled sy'n ddyledus i'r sector cyhoeddus mewn modd mwy cydlynol a gwella ystadegau swyddogol ac ymchwil. Byddwn yn gofyn i'r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol gefnogi’r darpariaethau hyn yn y Bil, gan fod manteision amlwg i’r cyhoedd wedi eu cynnwys yn y darpariaethau hyn sy'n cyfiawnhau deddfu, ac, ar yr un pryd, yn darparu amddiffyniadau cyhoeddus angenrheidiol a hanfodol. Rwy’n cydnabod y ffordd gydweithredol y mae Gweinidogion Llywodraeth y DU wedi gweithio gyda ni i ddatblygu darpariaethau a fydd yn caniatáu i Gymru ddatblygu ei dulliau ei hun, gan ddarparu ar gyfer system gyson a chydlynol ar draws y DU gyfan.

Credaf ei bod yn deg dweud, Lywydd, nad yw hynt y Bil trwy ddau Dŷ'r Senedd wedi bod yn rhwydd. Awgrymodd fy nghyd-aelod dros Orllewin Caerdydd, Kevin Brennan AS, sy’n arwain yr wrthblaid swyddogol ar y Bil, nad oedd y Bil yn barod i’w gyflwyno pan roddwyd caniatâd i wneud hynny. Yn ddiweddarach yn y broses, adroddodd Pwyllgor Pwerau Dirprwyedig a Diwygio Rheoleiddio Tŷ'r Arglwyddi gyfres o bryderon yn ymwneud â nifer o agweddau ar y Bil. Y canlyniad fu cyfres barhaus o ddiwygiadau i'r Bil ar bob cam o'i ystyriaeth, gan gynnwys y camau olaf. O ganlyniad, nu’n rhaid cyflwyno memorandwm atodol gerbron y Cynulliad, yn ychwanegol at y ddogfen wreiddiol, fel y nodwyd ym mis Tachwedd 2016.

Rwy'n ddiolchgar iawn i'r Pwyllgor Cymunedau, Cydraddoldeb a Llywodraeth Leol am ei ddealltwriaeth o'r anawsterau hyn a’i ystyriaeth o’r memorandwm cydsyniad deddfwriaethol cychwynnol ym mis Tachwedd. Roeddwn yn falch o gymryd y cyfle i egluro'r sefyllfa o ran hawliau dynol mewn gohebiaeth â Chadeirydd y pwyllgor, John Griffiths, a nodaf nad yw’r pwyllgor wedi mynegi unrhyw wrthwynebiad i gytuno’r cynnig sydd gerbron y Cynulliad y prynhawn yma.

Os mai dyna’r canlyniad, Lywydd, bydd yn sicrhau cyfres bwysig o bwerau newydd i'r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ac i Weinidogion Cymru, a fydd â phwerau i wneud rheoliadau er mwyn pennu amcanion mewn cysylltiad â rhannu data at ddibenion gwella gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru ac i enwi'r awdurdodau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru y bydd y cymalau ar wella gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, mynd i'r afael â thwyll a rheoli dyled sy'n ddyledus i'r sector cyhoeddus, yn berthnasol iddynt. Bydd unrhyw reoliadau a gyflwynir gan Weinidogion Cymru yn ddarostyngedig i'r weithdrefn gadarnhaol, ac, felly, bydd yn destun craffu ar lawr y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.

Er bod Gweinidogion y DU yn cadw'r pŵer i bennu amcanion darparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ar draws y DU, ceir arfer y pŵer hwnnw erbyn hyn dim ond mewn ymgynghoriad â Gweinidogion Cymru ar faterion sy'n effeithio ar Gymru a'r dyletswyddau cyfatebol sydd ar Weinidogion Cymru pan fyddant yn ceisio pennu amcanion gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Gadewch i mi fod yn eglur bod yr holl bwerau hyn yn rhoi awdurdod ac yn rhoi caniatâd a cheir eu cymhwyso at ddibenion penodol yn unig. Un o’r dibenion a fyddai'n bwysig i Aelodau yn y Cynulliad hwn yw rhannu data i ddarparu mynediad awtomatig at gynlluniau sy'n rhoi gostyngiadau i filiau ynni pobl sy'n byw mewn tlodi tanwydd ac, o ganlyniad i ddiwygiadau hwyr i'r Bil, mewn tlodi dŵr hefyd.

Nawr, Lywydd, fel y mae’r Bil wedi mynd rhagddo, un o’m prif bryderon fu sicrhau bod trefniadau diogelu llawn ac effeithiol o ran rhannu data. Mae hon yn agwedd ar y Bil sydd wedi cael ei chryfhau’n sylweddol yn ystod ei hynt drwy'r Senedd fel bod amddiffyniadau helaeth wedi eu cynnwys ynddo erbyn hyn. Mae'r ddeddfwriaeth yn gyson â Deddf Diogelu Data 1998 ac mae'n cyflwyno troseddau newydd am ddatgelu gwybodaeth yn anghyfreithlon. Mae'r Bil hefyd yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol cyflwyno codau ymarfer statudol ar rannu data y mae'n rhaid ymgynghori â Gweinidogion Cymru arnynt. Mae fy swyddogion eisoes wedi gweld drafftiau o’r cod arfaethedig ac wedi gwneud sylwadau arnynt.

Hefyd, mae mesurau diogelwch cryf ar waith erbyn hyn yn narpariaethau pwysig hynny’r Bil sy’n galluogi awdurdodau cyhoeddus i rannu data at ddibenion ymchwil. Mae’n rhaid i’r data hynny i’w rhannu fod yn ddienw, ceir eu rhannu dim ond ag ymchwilwyr achrededig mewn cyfleusterau diogel, sy’n gwneud gwaith ymchwil er budd y cyhoedd. Mae’n rhaid i Awdurdod Ystadegau'r DU achredu'r rheini sy'n gobeithio gwneud defnydd o'r pwerau i sicrhau bod y rheini sy’n trin y data yn gwneud hynny at ddiben priodol a bod ganddyn nhw’r mesurau diogelu angenrheidiol ar waith.

Lywydd, rwy’n credu bod y rhain yn fanteision cyhoeddus y byddem ni eisiau eu gweld ar gael yng Nghymru. Nid oes gennym unrhyw gyfrwng deddfwriaethol yn ein rhaglen gyfredol a fyddai'n addas i gyflawni'r dibenion hyn, a chan fod y Bil hwn yn cwmpasu materion datganoledig a materion heb eu datganoli, bydd yn cyflawni cydlyniad o ran rhannu data rhwng cyrff datganoledig a chyrff heb eu datganoli. O gofio ein bod ni wedi sicrhau pwerau addas i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, a mesurau diogelu angenrheidiol i’r dinesydd, byddwn yn gofyn i'r Aelodau gefnogi'r cynnig a rhoi cydsyniad deddfwriaethol y prynhawn yma.

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his opening to this debate, and also for the conversation that we’ve had on this measure recently? As the Cabinet Secretary has outlined, we are today requested to provide our consent to Part 5 of the UK Government’s Digital Economy Bill. As the Cabinet Secretary alluded to, at times, that section has proved highly controversial as the Bill proceeded through the legislative process in both Houses of the UK Parliament. Having said that, I also agree with the general thrust of this matter before us. However, it is worth noting that, as it proceeded through the House of Lords, the Lords’ Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee report said—and I quote—

‘we do not consider it appropriate for Ministers to have the power to decide by delegated legislation which authorities should be entitled to disclose or receive information under this potentially far-reaching and broadly-drafted gateway’.

The broad powers to share information with a range of ‘specified persons’, which could include private sector bodies, in particular, could be an area of concern, and plainly was an area of concern in the deliberations at the other end of the M4. It noted there, in the House of Lords, that the powers would very significantly broaden the scope for the sharing of information across Government departments, local authorities and other public bodies, and I understand that it is intended to allow recipients to match the data against that already held to identify individuals ‘facing multiple disadvantages’.

However, one could have an issue with the broad definition of the list of bodies that citizen data could be shared with under clause 30 of the Bill. The power to be described as a ‘specified person’ means that private sector contractors could be entitled to receive and disclose citizen information. So, could I just ask, what representations has the Welsh Government made on the specific point of whether the specified persons should be listed on the face of the Bill? And does the Welsh Government believe that the Bill should include such a list on the face of the Bill? The provisions within the Bill would, as was said in the explanatory memorandum, allow information to be shared between gas and electricity suppliers and public authorities, in relation to customers living in fuel poverty. Any move towards supporting people who are in fuel poverty is obviously very welcome. However, it does raise some serious questions that information on customers will be provided to commercial companies. Therefore, what steps have been taken to safeguard the people in Wales to ensure that companies do not breach any privacy rights?

The Cabinet Secretary alluded that this legislation was compatible with human rights legislation. Could he just confirm that again? And back to the data sharing of information with gas and electricity companies. Obviously, if it helps people in fuel poverty and in water poverty, and with debt control and all the rest of it, those moves are to be welcomed, naturally, but what happens to the data when those customers who at one point were in fuel poverty are no longer deemed to be in fuel poverty? What measures are used to stop the sharing of that information when it is no longer materially necessary so to do?

I'm glad the Cabinet Secretary has confirmed this afternoon that the relevant parts, when relevant public bodies are being discussed and measures are brought forward here, will be subject to the affirmative procedure here. That’s a move that I welcome. And, having said all that, Plaid Cymru will not oppose this LCM today. Diolch yn fawr.

I will say I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for briefing me around this LCM yesterday. Given the protections of the positive resolution procedure, given the lack of objection from the local government and human rights committee, and also given that the Cabinet Secretary's comments about the very significant improvements in the legislation as it progressed, and the openness of co-operation between him and UK Government on this, we are also happy to support this LCM.

He says that it will allow Wales our own approaches, in addition to providing for a coherent and consistent approach across the UK. Is he really saying that all tensions between those two approaches have been ironed out, and is there not a necessity for some trade-off between those two objectives? When he talks about tackling fraud and managing debt, I assume by ‘managing debt’ he means chasing debt and trying to get people who owe money to pay it, notably to the Welsh Government. Is that the intention there?

I welcome the work to try and ensure that people in fuel and water poverty do get the discounts that they are entitled to—very large numbers of them do not. It has not always been easy to apply for those discounts or for people to have awareness of their eligibility. And I recognise the privacy concerns that Dai Lloyd noted, but nonetheless do think this is a worthy objective and I’m pleased that the legislation is doing that.

Could I also just flag the data science park around Newport, and the ONS being there and the opportunities that there may be for employment and economic activity, particularly in that area, through having this public sector data available to researchers accredited by the UK Statistics Authority? Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that this is a further significant opportunity for that data park around Newport? Does he also recognise that the UK Government and, I think, probably working with devolved administrations in this context, has been a leader in terms of ensuring open data? When these data are shared by researchers, will they then be available through their research on an anonymised basis? And does he feel that the right balance is still being struck between that and the importance of open data to the economic opportunities that will give, but also to the protection of appropriate confidentiality?

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr, Lywydd. Thank you to both Members who’ve participated for their very interesting and pertinent questions. Dai Lloyd is absolutely right that the Bill has been controversial at a series of points during its progress. It’s partly as a result of the House of Lords report that he referred to that UK bodies will now be listed on the face of the Bill, as a result of late amendments in the House of Lords. Welsh bodies will be listed as a result of regulations that Welsh Ministers will have to bring in front of the National Assembly and which will be subject to the affirmative procedure as Dr Lloyd noted.

There are a series of safeguards, I believe, in this Bill now that allow us to have some confidence against some of the potential pitfalls that Dai Lloyd outlined. The requirement to have new, specific codes of practice that sit alongside the Bill, on which Welsh Ministers will have a direct ability to be consulted and to comment, and so on, I think will give us an opportunity to pick up a number of the points that he made, and to make sure that they are reflected in the necessary safeguards that need to surround the new data-sharing possibilities that the Bill allows for. It is very important to be clear that the Bill allows data to be shared in specified circumstances between specified bodies and for specified purposes, and when those purposes fall away—if someone is no longer in fuel poverty, for example, in the example that Dai Lloyd gave—then the data-sharing possibilities of this Bill fall away with them.

I’m pleased to confirm again that we have looked independently at the position taken by the UK Government in relation to article 8 human rights compliance. We believe the Bill is compliant. Any regulations that we bring forward under the affirmative procedure will have to be separately confirmed by Welsh Ministers as being Human Rights Act compliant. So, there will be further opportunities for this Assembly to scrutinise that matter, too.

Turning to Mark Reckless’s points, no, I don’t imagine that all tensions between devolved and non-devolved perspectives on data sharing have been ironed out, even as a result of the close working relationship we’ve had over this Bill, but what we have secured are new sets of consultation rights in both directions, which are now written into the Bill, which means that if there are issues where tensions need to be further pursued, we will have a vehicle for doing so.

The issue of debt is an interesting one, and I think the Member is right to raise it. I think there are two different ways in which the Bill might be relevant there. There will be people who the Bill will be able to help by being able to consolidate debt, to bring debt together, and to allow debt to be more manageably pursued when debt is owed to a range of different public sector bodies. There is work that I am keen to do with local government in Wales to look at the way that that part of the public sector pursues the debts that are owed to them. But we know as well that there are people who are not simply in debt because of straitened circumstances, where there are legitimate bills that are owed to public authorities, and where there is a right on behalf of the public to make sure that those bills are paid, because paying those bills pays for the services that we all rely on, and the Bill will allow for some extra capability in the hands of public authorities to do that effectively.

I entirely agree that data that are made available for research purposes as a result of the Bill, that the results of that should be shared with the public. The way that the SAIL database in Swansea operates is, I think, a very excellent example, which we promote elsewhere in the United Kingdom, as to the way in which we make sure that data that are contributed by Welsh citizens are put to use for important purposes, and done so openly and accessibly.

Finally, to agree as well that the ONS data park in Newport is developing a cluster in which we are attracting people into Wales, and we are developing a future workforce of our own. A leader in the field, Professor Bean, recently said that Newport was emerging as a hotspot for the data profession right across the United Kingdom, and in a small way, the powers that will come to Wales if this LCM is approved will help us to develop that important new industry for Wales.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.