The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt and amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 in the name of Paul Davies. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 will be deselected.

We now moved to item 6 on our agenda this afternoon, which is the Plaid Cymru debate on local authorities, and I call on Sian Gwenllian to move the motion—Sian.

Motion NDM6295 Rhun ap Iorwerth

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Believes that quality local public services are key to the prosperity and wellbeing of our nation.

2. Regrets that since 2011-12, funding for local authorities in Wales has decreased by 6.5 per cent, disproportionately affecting some of the weakest and most vulnerable people in communities across Wales.

3. Recognises the important role played by local authorities in:

a) developing local economies in partnership with the business community;

b) ensuring that our streets are clean and safe;

c) delivering quality education; and

d) delivering social service care that look after the most vulnerable people in communities across Wales.

4. Notes that the average salary for Chief Executives running Plaid Cymru-led Councils is nearly £22,000 less than those run by Labour Councils in Wales.

5. Believes that local affordable housing development projects should be rooted in the needs of the community.

6. Notes the successful child development tracking model, used by Ceredigion Council—the only council judged by Estyn to have excellent performance in Wales in the last full cycle of inspections—to ensure children are reaching their potential, with assistance provided at an early stage to those who are falling behind.

7. Regrets that, since 2012, the percentage total of local government procurement spend in Wales has remained static at just 58 per cent.

8. Calls on the Welsh Government to scrap zero hours contracts in the social care sector.

Motion moved.

Thank you. It’s a pleasure for me, on behalf of Plaid Cymru, to focus all our attention this afternoon on the importance of maintaining and developing strong local government in Wales. By strengthening our communities, we will also strengthen our nation.

With the announcement made by the UK Prime Minister of an election on 8 June taking all of the attention of the press and politicians of all hues, I am pleased that there’s an opportunity for us to pause for a moment in the Senedd this afternoon to discuss the importance of our public services. Of course, the local government elections are an opportunity for people to express their views tomorrow.

Plaid Cymru believes that local public services of quality are crucial to the prosperity and well-being of our nation, but these public services are under threat. Funding has been reduced and cuts are being made as a result of that. The Conservatives are on an ideological crusade to dismantle our public services. Unfortunately, there is worse to come over the next few years. We need strong councils in all corners of our nation, councils that act responsibly to protect our most vulnerable and the weakest in our society; to protect those people who are most affected by these cuts. Gwynedd Council was praised by the auditor general for its financial planning, which was effective and robust despite the cuts.

We need strong councils to safeguard our public services, to be a shield against the worst of these cuts and the austerity policies imposed by the Tories. For far too long, we have made do with a second-class service for many of our councils. Plaid Cymru wants to build a new Wales, and, in our view, the best starting place is at our feet. Where Plaid Cymru leads councils—in Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion, Conwy and Gwynedd—we are providing excellent services, despite the financial limitations that we face. These councils are in the vanguard in Wales, in areas as varied as social housing, education, clean streets and recycling. With education, Ceredigion County Council is leading the way as the only council judged by Estyn to be performing excellently in Wales in the last full cycle of inspections.

Very often in this Chamber, we discuss the shortage of social housing in Wales. In order to tackle this problem, Carmarthenshire County Council, which is Plaid Cymru led, has taken action, committing to building 60 additional council houses over the next two years, as part of a commitment to a broader affordable housing programme, which pledges to provide over 1,000 affordable houses over the next five years. This is the first council in Wales to build new council houses since the 1980s. We need housing for our people, but new estates must be in the right place, and they must be supported by the necessary infrastructure—roads, schools, hospitals. Unfortunately, the Cardiff council local development plan is an example of a scheme that won’t work for the benefit of the people, with a focus on building homes without taking into account the repercussions of that.

Annually, our councils spend millions of pounds on purchasing goods and services, but, far too often, this money flows out of Wales. Small local suppliers aren’t always in a position to compete with the larger competitors for council contracts. Since 2012, the total procurement expenditure of local government in Wales has remained static at just 58 per cent. During a period of austerity, when funding is short, it’s increasingly important that local authorities, and the public sector more broadly, do secure the best local value for money in terms of public expenditure. Gwynedd Council has already started to tackle this problem, establishing a new procurement system to keep the benefits locally. Not only has this contributed millions to the local economy, but it’s also saved £2.3 million for the council over five years.

Maintaining public services of a high quality does require the highest quality staff to run those services. People deserve fair pay for their work, but there shouldn’t be a huge gap between the salaries of those at the top and the salaries of the front-line workers, who are so crucial to success. We want to close this gap, and we believe in working towards a fair deal for all council employees, including those on zero-hours contracts. I very much hope that the Government today can commit to the principle of scrapping zero-hours contracts in the social care sector by supporting clause 8 of our motion. Otherwise, your party will be accused of hypocrisy, with your leaders at the UK level saying one thing, whilst you choose not to take action here when you have the opportunity to do so in Wales. But, more importantly, supporting clause 8 would be a clear sign that you are on the side of some of our most valuable but least respected workers in Wales at the moment.

To conclude, public services of quality are central to the prosperity of our nation. They are the glue that holds our society together, and the safety net that supports the most vulnerable in our society. Plaid Cymru councillors will be champions for their communities, and will use all of the powers available to them to improve the lives of people, to strengthen Welsh communities, and to put power back in the hands of the people.

Thank you very much.

I have selected the five amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 will be deselected. So, I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 1—Jane Hutt

Delete all after point 1.

Amendment 1 moved.

Formally.

Thank you very much. I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 tabled in the name of Paul Davies.

Amendment 2—Paul Davies

Delete point 2 and replace with:

Regrets that since 2013-14, funding for local authorities in Wales has decreased by 6.78 per cent, disproportionately affecting our rural communities, including cuts of 9.98 per cent to Monmouthshire, 9.36 per cent to Vale of Glamorgan and 7.96 per cent to Conwy.

Amendment 3—Paul Davies

Delete point 4 and replace with:

Notes that the Chief Executive salary for Welsh Conservative-led Monmouthshire County Council is one of the lowest in Wales, and commends the transparency of the council in publishing all expenditure.

Amendment 4—Paul Davies

Delete point 6 and replace with:

Notes the right of every child and young person to be given the opportunity to realise their full potential, and highlights the importance of direct funding for schools in enabling parents to be able to choose the best school for their children.

Amendment 5—Paul Davies

Delete point 8 and replace with:

Notes the value of social care workers in relieving overburdened, centralised NHS services, and the importance of integration between the health and social care sectors in Wales.

Amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I do move amendments 2 to 5 in the name of Paul Davies AM. Tomorrow, on 4 May, voters will go to the polls to elect their members in our local authorities, town and community councils. Legislation, policy and settlement distribution, of course, have been the responsibility of Welsh Labour for the past 18 years. Over this time, our residents have seen council tax increased in Wales by 187 per cent. They’ve also felt severe cuts to our bin collections, and the closure of public toilets, our libraries and our local community centres. Those living in our rural communities are blighted by the many cuts imposed by this Welsh Labour Government, especially the swingeing cuts to community transport, leaving many feeling isolated and in despair. So, it is clear that voters will be looking for change and for representatives who will fight their corner, speaking up against such imposing cuts and a lack of efficiency in the delivery of their services.

Our first amendment highlights the disproportionate cuts to rural authorities: 10 per cent, Monmouthshire; 9 per cent, Vale of Glamorgan; and nearly 8 per cent in Conwy. Council tax remains Wales’s biggest debt burden according to the citizens advice bureau, with residents now facing an increase of 187 per cent since Labour came to power. In Conwy though it’s 230 per cent, yet this hasn’t prevented Plaid Cymru, Labour, Lib Dems and the independents from supporting and voting in further increases. Street cleaning and bin collections, noted in Plaid’s motion as important functions of local government, have been slashed like never before. Yes, by Plaid Cymru and Labour. In Conwy, four-weekly bin collections and fly-tipping—now at its highest level in five years—are causing huge misery to my constituents, impacting the most on our families, our pensioners and our most vulnerable.

The Welsh Conservatives are working to protect and safeguard these vital services, pledging to restore bin collections to at least fortnightly, fundamentally opposing further and unnecessary council tax increases.

Will the Member give way on that point?

Okay.

She just pledged to restore bin collections fortnightly, which, as has been pointed out already, is a bit of a nonsense really when you should be taking a local approach to this. But this was a promise by the Conservatives in England, by Eric Pickles, and they had to abandon that promise. What guarantees can she give to the people who vote tomorrow that she won’t abandon her promise?

I definitely won’t abandon it, and the fundamental point here is that there haven’t been any cost savings to date since the four-weekly collections came in

Social services and the care sector in Wales are in crisis. The Health Foundation states that demography, chronic conditions and rising costs will require the budget to almost double to £2.3 billion by 2030-31 to match demand, yet the lack of vision and investment under Plaid Cymru and Labour has been astounding. The Wales Public Services 2025 programme found that local authority spending per person was slashed by 13 per cent over the last seven years for our older residents. This is a national disgrace and it would take £134 million more per year, by 2020, to get back to 2009 per capita levels. Monmouthshire council, however, are leading the way with the Raglan project, remodelling the way in which social services are delivered to older people, cutting out waste, improving efficiency, and enabling better and easier access. Our amendment recognises the value of those working in our care industry, across the social care and health sector, and highlights the ineffective, day-to-day lack of joined-up services on the continuum.

The Llywydd (Elin Jones) took the Chair.

School closures. Since 2006, we’ve seen 157 school closures under a Welsh Labour Government—60 per cent of these rural. Plaid Cymru-led Ceredigion has seen 20 rural school closures; eight in Gwynedd and six in Conwy. And under the independents in Powys, 18. Many of these overlooking the consultation process returns, just going ahead mobhanded. As a final point, our amendment calls for the direct funding for schools, cutting out the waste, the inefficiency and the bureaucracy of another tier that simply absorbs more in administration, taking away from our children in their own classrooms. The Welsh Conservatives will continue to fight to ensure that all children have the opportunity to realise their own full potential.

So, tomorrow, our voters will not be thanking Labour or Plaid Cymru for continuing service cuts, tax hikes and the destruction of our—

Member of the Senedd:

Will you take an intervention?

I can’t, I’ve already—. They will be looking for those who will stand up for change, to support our children, older people and our family households; those who will stand up for transparency, democratic accountability and financial probity and those who will seek protection for our vital services, whilst keeping council tax in proportion. Tomorrow the message is clear: ‘Ymgeisydd Plaid Geidwadol Cymru’—Welsh Conservative Party candidate. You know it makes sense.

I’m not so sure about the sense part there in voting Conservative. This is a timely debate with the elections tomorrow. I will declare an interest: I am standing for election. I’d like to highlight the 6.5 per cent cuts in local government funding since 2011 and 2012 because it has not been necessary. It has been a very lazy, easy cut for—

Member of the Senedd:

Will you take an intervention?

No. —for this Labour Government. All we hear about from the Labour side are the awful Conservative cuts from London. Granted—I agree. But, what about scandals like the Lisvane land deal where you’ve wasted £38 million in one single deal or the sale of two shops at a loss of £1 million to the taxpayer?

We need to keep our streets clean in Wales, but, again, if you look at Cardiff, what have they done? They’ve cut services. You see rubbish strewn around our capital city and in an attempt to increase recycling, they’ve closed recycling centres. Now, there is a bit of an irony there: we had a referendum in one part of Cardiff and 1,869 people voted to reopen the most popular recycling centre in Cardiff at Waungron Road. There were four against. So, in terms of figures, it was 100 per cent, when you round it up, who wanted to reopen the centre. But all those views were completely ignored by a Labour council.

We move on to salaries: there’s a £22,000 difference in chief executive salaries in Plaid councils and in Labour councils. If I think of my experience as deputy leader across the road in 2008-12, the first thing that we did was freeze councillor allowances. We also attacked the unproductive bureaucracy and cut many salaries over £100,000 a year, and we were saving in the region of £5 million a year after that process. In 2012, what did Labour do? They brought back the huge, heavy, expensive tier of management. They brought all of those salaries back, over £120,000 a year, which equated to a massive wage bill, paid for by the workers at the lower end of the scale because, again, Labour do a very good line in irony in Cardiff: they introduce a living wage and then they cut the hours of the lowest paid people in the organisation who are then worse off as a result.

Let’s talk about local development plans in Wales because they simply do not work. There are 22 of them or there will be 22 of them and none of them are joined up—none of them. If we look at the local development plan in Cardiff, we’re going to lose virtually every greenfield site in the west of the city, if Labour are re-elected tomorrow. We’re going to lose ancient woodlands, species of animals, insects and amphibians. It will all go under concrete, put there by developers making billions of pounds from this region.

The traffic chaos that we have already is something to behold. When I leave my house, if I’m in the Canton office in the morning, I don’t get the bus; I walk from Fairwater to Ely bridge because it’s quicker—I walk quicker than the bus at peak time—and I catch a bus from Ely bridge into Canton, and that says it all, really, that the roads are already jammed. What Labour is proposing in Cardiff is 10,000 extra cars every single day on the roads of the west of the city. No new roads, no infrastructure, no plan for investment in public transport—absolute madness, which Cardiff Plaid aims to stop tomorrow if we win the election, or perhaps when we win the election, and begin to revoke the local development plan.

We want to solve the housing crisis in Wales. We want to solve the housing crisis all over this central region, and in Cardiff, by renovating empty properties—thousands of empty properties across South Wales Central. We can employ local builders to do so and we could house people very quickly. There are plenty of brownfield sites to build on. Instead, this developer-led madness—absolute madness—will ruin our countryside and bring ‘carmageddon’ to the streets of this region.

Tomorrow the people will be voting on these issues up and down Wales, and I’m pretty sure that Labour will get its answer and the good people of Wales will stand up and get it done. Diolch yn fawr—thank you.

I declare an interest as a member of Caerphilly County Borough Council, although until tomorrow—I’ll be standing down. My dad is standing again, Councillor Wynne David in St Cattwg ward in Caerphilly. Indeed, he bumped into Steffan Lewis on the campaign trail—how dare Steffan Lewis campaign in Gelligaer—and my father said, ‘What a nice guy that Steffan Lewis is’, and I said, ‘Well, he’s campaigning for the opposition’. He said, ‘Ah, yes, but speak as you find’. So, there we are.

I’ve seen first hand the challenges as a councillor, and I’ve said in this Chamber before that you don’t get elected to make cuts. You don’t get elected to find savings, and it has been very difficult in the past 10 years that I’ve served as a county borough councillor. I’ve found the meetings where you go through the budget and look for discretionary savings incredibly difficult meetings, and they’ve been as a result—as Sian Gwenllian and Neil McEvoy have noted—of UK Government policy. The Welsh Government has protected funding for local government and the first few years were not anywhere near as bad as they could have been, as they were in England. Indeed, this year, spending on local government has been better than in England. We’ve seen the settlement—more than half of the 22 local authorities received an increase in core funding compared to 2016-17, and this is better than local government expected. And, as a councillor, I have to say it was good news.

Personally, I feel a degree of regret, though, in spite of the things I’ve said, that I will be leaving local government. I’m not going to make any judgment about Neil McEvoy or other Members of this Chamber who are also councillors, but I feel that it is very difficult to do the job of the Assembly Member and as a local councillor, and therefore I feel I have to stand down. Incidentally, I’ve been the cheapest local councillor in Wales, claiming £0 allowance and zero expenses. So, this cheap councillor now is standing down.

In Caerphilly we’ve managed to make the most of our situation, though—we’ve managed to keep our housing stock and spent £210 million on the Welsh housing quality standard. We’ve used, as far as we can, local suppliers to do that work. We’ve also invested in library services, and, in spite of those pressures, we’ve worked in areas of greatest need.

One of the things I’d say to Neil McEvoy is it is this Welsh Government, this Welsh Parliament, that has passed the Planning (Wales) Act 2015 that has introduced strategic development plans, and, whatever happens after the election, if housing need is going to be met, then parties of all persuasions need to work together to agree strategic plans if they’re going to be successful. I think the rhetoric of the campaign, whatever happens after the election, whatever parties win, must be put aside and parties must work together—work together in a way that didn’t happen, by the way, in 2013. In 2013, I put forward a motion to Caerphilly council to cut the pay. Bearing in mind the wording of Plaid Cymru’s motion today,

‘that the average salary for Chief Executives running Plaid Cymru-led Councils is nearly £22,000 less than those run by Labour Councils’, well, I put a motion to Caerphilly council to cut the chief executive’s pay by £21,000 and the motion was successful, but every Plaid Cymru member on the council—or 14 members voted against and two abstained. It was Labour members who passed that motion.

If we look at authorities across Wales, if we look at the level of pay, the only way you can deal with senior pay in my view is to look at multipliers—what is the level of senior pay compared to the lowest paid in the organisation? If you’re going to tackle the issue of senior pay—as I’ve said before in this Chamber, if you’re going to tackle the issue of senior pay, you’ve got to consider how the chief executive is paid both in relation to other local authorities, because you’re fishing in the same pool for talent, but also compared to the lowest paid, and I’m delighted to say Caerphilly was the first local authority in Wales after the 2012 elections to introduce the living wage.

With regard to zero-hours contracts, we want to see an end to them. However, I feel that the motion today is designed for Twitter rather than designed to produce a legally defendable position that protects family-friendly working. I feel that the Welsh Government has consistently acted to deter the unfair and inappropriate use of zero-hours contracts in the public sector in Wales and has made it a priority to ensure staff are treated in a fair and equitable way, consistent with our Labour values. Whatever the positioning of Plaid Cymru in the light of the election, I will continue to believe that. Therefore, I feel that we have good Labour local authorities in Wales and I hope that we will see more Labour local authorities in Wales after this election.

It’s a pleasure to participate in this debate. I might as well say also that, when I was younger, I too was a county councillor in Swansea, and it was a pleasant experience, I have to say, over a number of years. I learnt a lot and, specifically, I learnt the importance of social services. Because, at heart, without social care and services, the health service would fail. So, I’m going to focus on that in my contribution now with regard to the importance of social services.

I’ve said many times in the Chamber that the number of older people in the population is increasing. That’s a positive sign of the success of our care services and healthcare services. In 1950, only 250 people in the UK were 100 years of age. Two years ago, there were 13,700 people in the UK 100 years and over. The figures have increased significantly. Of course, as doctors, we do have to keep people at home in their own homes now, whereas 10 or 20 years ago we would have sent those people to hospital because they were so vulnerable.

But, of course, the number of beds has decreased and, of course, we’re in the situation where we have to keep people at home now. Sometimes they live alone and are entirely dependent on those people who come around to care for them. The entire system, therefore, depends on social care. Also, people are more vulnerable very often, and they have conditions that are far more complex now than they did back in the day. People who have different tubes and wires attached to them are cared for at home as well by social care workers these days. So, there is a significant challenge facing those who do provide that care.

Now, the social care services do care for all sorts of different issues with regard to childcare and safeguarding and so on, and with regard to mental health services, but I will focus on carers, because that’s the system that we have that ensures that our health service can run as smoothly as it does. But, with regard to how we think about care, I’ve said before in this Chamber that I think, over the years, we’ve tended to downgrade that principle of caring for another person.

Back in the day, before perhaps we had a health service, we did care very well for people. Our nurses cared very well and there were quality carers caring very well. But, over the years, as medicine has become more technical, that element of care has been downgraded. We tend to forget about it; we tend to devolve care to those people who perhaps haven’t received the kind of training that we would like to see them receive, and they don’t receive the wages that they deserve, and they have to live, as we’ve already heard, on zero-hours contracts. Now, it’s part of societal attitudes towards this entire principle of caring for another person. As a society, we tend to downgrade that. Mike.

Do you regret the fact that we've moved away from local authorities directly employing staff in carrying out care, and it's gone out to the private sector?

Mi fuaswn i’n cytuno efo hynny, ond hefyd, wrth gwrs, mae ein siroedd ni hefyd yn gallu comisiynu gofal o’r elusennau ac ati ac nid oes yna byth—fel yr ydym ni wedi’i glywed eisoes yng nghyfraniad bendigedig Sian Gwenllian, nid oes yna byth digon o arian ar gael i wneud yn siŵr ein bod ni’n gallu cael y cytundebau iawn i bobl sy’n gofalu. Rydw i’n gwybod bod yna bwysau ar ofalwyr cyflogedig i gwblhau eu hymweliad, weithiau, o fewn chwarter awr—o fewn 30 munud yn arferol iawn. Wel, os ydych chi’n mynd i ddarparu gofal o’r radd flaenaf, mae o’n cymryd amser a hefyd yr un un person tymor hir i edrych ar ôl y person yna hefyd yn ei gartref. Wrth gwrs, nid ydych chi’n mynd i gael yr un person o hyd os ydych chi’n mynd i ddibynnu ar gytundebau dim oriau. Felly, i gloi, buaswn i yn pwysleisio—tra, wrth gwrs, yr ydym ni i gyd yn meddwl am etholiadau llywodraeth leol ac am lywodraeth leol yn benodol y prynhawn yma yn y ddadl yma—ond buaswn i’n pwysleisio trwy hynny i gyd, ie, mae’r llywodraeth leol yn edrych ar ôl addysg a phob math o bethau, ond, trwy hynny i gyd, mae eisiau cofio pwysigrwydd gofal cymdeithasol. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi.

Thanks to Plaid Cymru for bringing today's debate. We, in UKIP Wales, agree with the broad thrust of the Plaid motion. Of course, local public services are a key component in the well-being of the public they serve.

Cuts in public funding are always to be regretted if they threaten well-used local services and facilities. Unfortunately, the reality of politics is such that the reasons for cuts are invariably disputed by different parties. Traditionally in Wales, we have had Labour-run councils who complain that budget cuts are always caused by Conservative Governments in Westminster. Of course, when we had a Labour Government in Westminster, they had to think of a different excuse. But that situation looks unlikely to recur, at least not for a considerable time. Since 1999, we have a third player in the blame game, namely the Assembly, and now we have Brexit as well. For the public, it's all very confusing. I think, from the public's point of view, it's better to forget who is to blame for cuts, at least once the elections are over, and to concentrate on providing the highest quality public services that we can.

Local economies can be helped by local council decisions. Procurement should favour local firms. Councils can also help with issues like parking provision and charges. The Assembly itself is also a major player here with its powers over business rates, and UKIP certainly favours policies that benefit local businesses. Traditional high streets are something we should fight to preserve. Well-run local pubs deserve whatever support councils, and the Assembly, can offer. We still await an announcement from the Assembly Government on its proposals to support pubs in Wales.

There have been some interesting issues raised in today's debate. Neil McEvoy was talking at length about the problems we've had in Cardiff. Now, I don't want to particularly focus on Cardiff itself but, when he talked about the confusing decisions regarding recycling made by the Labour-run council, allied to their decision to close down two of the four recycling sites in Cardiff, it does raise questions, but I will refrain from comment on that particular decision, except to mention that you had a local referendum on that, but the result was completely ignored. This does raise UKIP Wales's position that we need legally-binding local referendums on major planning decisions. Unfortunately, I don't think Plaid are yet in support of this measure. Perhaps you need to think about that in greater depth.

Hefin David made an interesting contribution talking about his own role on Caerphilly council. Now, his decision is to leave the council; he believes that you can't combine the job of being an Assembly Member with being a councillor. Neil McEvoy has come to a different decision, and I think, if I'm correct, we also have a Conservative member, Russell George, who, since he was elected, is still a member of Montgomery council. I think he is. So, in his case–sorry, it’s Powys County Council isn’t it—it seems to be possible to combine different roles. It’s interesting that if we turn the clock back only a few years, there were many MPs who, on election to Westminster, continued to sit on their local councils, and it was thought that the link between national Government and local government was worth preserving and that local councillors should, where possible, continue to sit on the council after they became MPs. So, it’s interesting how that viewpoint seems to have changed. I think in the Labour Government after 1945, we actually had a Home Secretary in Chuter Ede who remained a member of his local council.

Can I make an intervention?

Sure.

I wasn’t—as I commonly don’t—expressing Labour Party policy; I was expressing my personal view. And I wasn’t making a judgment about anybody else.

I wasn’t implying that you were, Hefin; that wasn’t my point. I just said that there are differences of opinion, that’s all; I was just ventilating the issue. [Interruption.] Okay, it’s been ventilated.

We need to curb excessive officer salaries. There do need to be tough statutory guidelines here, and we are also mindful of the need to address zero-hours contracts. Now, Hefin spoke on this as well, and I think one of the Ministers yesterday mentioned zero-hours contracts. I’m slightly confused now by Labour’s position, because you all seem to be saying that you’re against them, but you don’t seem to be doing anything about it. We certainly do need to look at their use in the public sector. We need to look closely at this. In general, in UKIP Wales we believe that zero-hours contracts do drive down pay and working conditions, and so we believe that action over the use of these contracts in the public sector is sorely needed. Thank you.

I had intended to speak more broadly in this debate about the role of innovation in local government, of which there are some examples from Plaid Cymru-led authorities, as set out in our motion. But I’ve been prompted to talk about a different kind of innovation—innovation in politics, which is doing what we say. You know, actually putting into action the principles that we say are at the heart of our politics. And I can honestly say I’m at a loss to understand why there is opposition from a Labour Government—a Government that at least in name is meant to be socialist—to actually banning the use of zero-hours contracts. As we’ve just heard in the contribution by the UKIP Member, a party that I’m sure most of you would believe to be to the right of you is actually to the left of you on this issue, it seems. It’s completely unconscionable. You’ve put it at the heart of your British manifesto, and we’re the only nation in the UK where you’re actually in Government—and probably any hope of being in Government for the next few years—and yet you’re not prepared to actually implement it. This is the kind of thing that gives democratic politics a bad name. You should be ashamed of yourselves. How can we restore people’s faith and trust in politics when you say one thing and you do another?

Just to ask the question, I think you should provide more detail than ‘ban zero-hours contracts’. What exactly do you mean and how would you legally defend that?

We say it quite clearly. We’ve set out amendments to a whole series of Bills. I know that the honourable Member and I myself were elected last year, but Plaid Cymru put in a whole series of amendments on six separate occasions to two different Bills. They were set out in amendments to those Bills, and you voted against. It’s not as if we’ve just done this to play politics, right? We actually tried to legislate in this place and your Government opposed it. [Interruption.] Well, I’ll tell you the pathetic arguments that you gave against it. Actually, on one of those occasions on the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care Bill, your Minister in your Government said this:

‘But, let’s be clear about the proposition that is in front of the National Assembly. This amendment seeks an outright ban—an outright ban—on the use of zero-hours contracts…. I don’t think that that is a position that we ought to support.’

That’s what you were saying then. You say a different thing now in your British Labour Party manifesto. Yes, you introduced it in January 2016 after research that showed that there are quite clear disadvantages in terms of workers’ rights. Yes, you agreed to look at limiting the use of zero-hours contracts, and you consulted up on that, and presumably, that’s what the Cabinet Secretary was referring to earlier—‘We’re expecting an announcement about limiting the use’. Well, limiting the use of something that is quite clearly wrong in every sense, both in terms of the workers, but also, as we’ve heard, in terms of service users as well—you don’t limit the use, you ban it, you get rid of it, you root it out. That’s what people expect from a party that purports to be socialist, so why isn’t the Cabinet Secretary able to get up at that dispatch box in a few minutes and say that that is what you’re going to do?

And this argument, as well, that we’ve heard: ‘You could have imperilled the Bill’. Well, we have a system for dealing with that—it’s section 111 of the Government of Wales Act 2006, which allows a Member in this place, if there is a legal challenge at the Supreme Court, to remove that section of the Bill to allow the Bill to proceed without the danger of the whole Bill being lost. It’s a completely vacuous argument. And we were told as well the idea that, ‘Oh, there’s a lack of clarity whether we can actually do anything that is related to employment, and therefore, it might raise questions about the Bill’. That’s the argument that you—. The argument that you’re using with the trade union Bill is that, actually, public sector employment is a legitimate area for this place to legislate. And that’s what we’re talking about, certainly, in terms of what we have in this motion—at least banning the use of zero-hours contracts in local authorities in Wales. Why don’t you do it and put your principles into practice?

Of course, some of us have been talking about getting rid of all exploitative contracts, not just zero-hours contracts, for some time.

I see that Plaid Cymru, in their introduction to their debate, recognise the important role played by local authorities in developing local economies in partnership with the business community; ensuring that our streets are clean and safe; delivering quality education; and delivering social service care that looks after the most vulnerable people in communities across Wales. Can I say that I agree entirely with that? But I also say: what about leisure facilities to keep people fit? What about environmental health services? What about trading standards? What about support for the arts? Do they not recognise the importance of these and other services provided by local government? I could continue for another four and a half minutes, but I’m sure all of you will be pleased to know that I won’t. But do you recognise the importance of these and other services provided by local government?

I also see that they regret that, since 2011-12, funding for local authorities in Wales has decreased by 6.5 per cent, disproportionately affecting some of the weakest and most vulnerable people in communities across Wales. Speaking as someone who is often probably just in a minority of one speaking up in favour of local government having more money in the last Assembly, I am very pleased to see other people joining in. Can I remind Members who were here in the last Assembly of the budget we had? The Conservatives asked for more money for health, meaning hospitals. The Liberal Democrats wanted more money for education. Plaid Cymru wanted more money for apprenticeships. No party asked for more money for local government. If all those requests had been accepted, then there would have been even less money for local government. I believe more of the Assembly money should be spent on local government. It would mean less spent on other services.

I also hold what is a novel view here—that health is not only about hospitals, but it is about promoting a healthy lifestyle, which local authorities do, and that local government plays a hugely important role in this. As an Assembly, we have a health committee, but not a dedicated local government committee. Our committee that covers local government covers other areas—local government services are covered by a number of different committees.

I see, also, that you note that the average salary for chief executives running Plaid Cymru-led councils is nearly £22,000 less than those run by Labour in Wales. The councils that Plaid Cymru run are small and medium sized, whilst Labour controls the larger authorities. On the Conservative amendment, we could also note that Monmouth is one of the smallest authorities in Wales. Larger authorities tend to pay higher salaries. I am disappointed that the call I keep on making—and will make again—that the setting of chief executive salaries should be based on advisory bands based on council size, or, like it used to be before the last Tory Government of 1979 to 1997—. It worked, and other chief officers were paid a percentage of the chief executive’s salary.

One of the things that also concerns me, and concerns me greatly, is that we have a situation where a number of people are now being paid between the chief officer’s salary and the principal officer’s salary. They get the POF in the purple book and then they top it up. And that again causes me concern.

To the Conservatives I ask, if funding goes directly to schools, who and how are services such as the following to be addressed: school transport; education otherwise than at school; school improvement? Again, I could give a very long list, but I won’t. The Conservatives continually talk about changes in council support from the Welsh Government. If we look at absolute amount paid per resident, you get an entirely different result. The formula takes into account things like population; number of children; number of older adults; road lengths; deprivation; rurality and sparsity. Unless the absolute amount spent on local government increases, if you change the formula, some people will win and some people will lose. You can’t have everybody winning with a change of formula. Powys and Conwy have more funding per head than Swansea and Cardiff. I would argue that the large authorities in south Wales are doing disproportionately badly—a view probably held by other people who live in an area with a large authority. I’m sure the rural people are saying something very different. But if funding is based purely on a population, it would help Swansea and Cardiff and Monmouth, but devastate Merthyr and Blaenau Gwent and a whole series of rural authorities.

Finally, local government services are important every day, not just in the run-up to council elections. I keep on saying how important they are. I was trying to remind people, just before the Ynys Môn set of elections a few years ago, when they had them a year later, that we were inundated with debates on local government, and Ynys Môn in particular, which have not been copied since. So, local government is important, how people treat it is important—and that we support local government all the time, not just in the week before the election.

Can I say at the outset that I welcome this debate at a very timely period in the electoral cycle, given that we’ve got local government elections tomorrow? I wanted to acknowledge the vital role that local authorities actually play against, as others have already acknowledged, a backdrop of huge cuts from the Westminster Government, and the breathtaking hypocrisy of Tories standing up here and lamenting cuts to local authorities. It is, as I say, quite breathtaking. As noted by Hefin David, the Welsh Labour Government has protected councils in Wales to a far greater extent than any local authority was protected by the Tories in Wales.

Before I move on to the main body of my contribution, Llywydd, I just wanted to reflect on the earlier discussion about the theme of democracy in local government. Just reflecting on what’s happening in Merthyr Tydfil, we don’t have one single UKIP candidate standing, which sounds very strange to me for a party that’s purporting to be taking over from Labour in the Valleys. We have one sultry Tory standing, and we have two Lib Dems, and the rest is a plethora of independents who stand for goodness knows what, with politics from the far left to the far right. Who knows what people are going to get if they elect independents tomorrow.

But, from my perspective, I want to use this opportunity to refer to two particular areas highlighted in the Plaid motion in relation to Merthyr Tydfil council, those being education and developing local economies. Between 2008 and 2012, Merthyr council was run with no cohesive plan by the independents, and year on year, during that period, school results placed the council either twenty-first or twenty-second out of 22 local authorities in Wales and the authority’s education service was taken into special measures. In 2012, Labour took control of that council and since 2013 schools performance in Merthyr Tydfil improved at a much faster rate than the rest of Wales. The council’s results have improved year on year, and the council is now placed tenth out of 22 and rising, and the education authority has come out of special measures. A clear example of Labour delivering in office.

It’s not just education that has seen improvement. Labour-run Merthyr Tydfil council is also leading the way on bringing new jobs to the county borough and is outstripping other Valleys authorities in supporting businesses to create new jobs for local people. Five-hundred jobs came to Merthyr following the council’s success in attracting General Dynamics to the town, and supported by a Welsh Government grant of almost £13 million under its Vibrant an Viable Places programme, Merthyr Tydfil is well on target to revitalise and promote the sustainability of the town centre and deliver housing and other strategic projects of a significant scale within the area. As a consequence, we’ve seen Merthyr Tydfil become the business growth capital of Wales in this last year.

On infrastructure, the £8.5 million Riverside development at Merthyr Vale was completed and opened during 2016. The scheme, which included a new highway, bridges and footpaths, also unlocked land for future housing developments on the former colliery site. On tourism, Bike Park Wales opened its doors in August 2013, and has since attracted over 1 million visitors to the site at Gethin woodlands in Abercanaid. Merthyr council can rightly be proud of its achievements.

But, as it’s election time, it’s probably no great surprise that a Plaid motion seeks to criticise Labour councils over chief executive salaries. Llywydd, I will not defend excessive salaries in our public services, but I would question the comparison that Plaid seek to make between Plaid-led and Labour-controlled councils when it comes to chief executives’ pay. Plaid only have control of one council, in Gwynedd, but even if you include Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire, where they are in coalition, as Mike Hedges has already pointed out, you are talking about small councils compared with most of the Labour-controlled councils, which include Cardiff, Swansea, Neath Port Talbot, Newport, Bridgend and Caerphilly. The relative size of these local authorities in respect of population served would itself generally account for higher levels of salary.

Yesterday, one of those Labour-controlled councils, Caerphilly, which also covers part of my constituency in the Rhymney valley, reached an agreement with its staff trade unions to boost the holiday pay of some of its lowest paid workers. This is in addition to paying all its staff the foundation living wage, like many Labour-controlled authorities in Wales, including Cardiff, Newport, RCT, Torfaen and, I’m delighted to say, Merthyr Tydfil. So, if Plaid want to bandy around the issue of salaries in local government in this debate, rather than making flawed comparisons between local authorities that take no account of size, perhaps they can take some time to explain why they don’t pay the foundation living wage in the authorities that they control.

In conclusion, Llywydd, I’ll be supporting the motion as amended by the Welsh Government and the last amendment from the Conservatives, and, in doing so, would emphasise and praise the work done by local authorities across Wales, against the backdrop of continuing Tory austerity.

Before I call the Cabinet Secretary, some of you may have realised that we have a technical problem, and it is such a significant problem, unfortunately, I’m going to have to suspend proceedings. The bell will ring when proceedings are about to restart. Diolch yn fawr.

Plenary was suspended at 16:17.

The Assembly reconvened at 16:40, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

I call the Assembly to order, therefore. Apologies for that break. I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, Mark Drakeford.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Thank you for the chance to take part in a well-timed debate, as others have said, with people across Wales going to the polls tomorrow. This has been a very proper opportunity for parties here to put forward policies on which electorates will make their decisions. Maybe I’ll begin by agreeing with the last speaker in the debate, Dawn Bowden, as I agreed with Simon Thomas earlier this afternoon, in saying that it is one of the great advantages of political parties that there are manifestos that people can see and that informed decisions can be made. Where people belong to political parties, I think it’s right and proper that that should be known to electors under whatever flag people then choose to put themselves up for election.

The Government amendment this afternoon seeks to align the National Assembly with a proposition on which all parties here, from what I’ve heard this afternoon, can agree—the importance of quality local services to the population, served by local authorities right across Wales.

Llywydd, I first came to work in the National Assembly in the year 2000. I thought then and I continue to think now that it’s been one of the strengths of the National Assembly that it’s had people represented here who know local government, having cut their own political teeth through election to local authorities. It’s partly why I think that I’ve always said, since I became Minister with responsibility for local government, that my approach to the sector is one that’s based on its importance—its importance as a provider of key services, as a key player in creating local economies and as an essential link in the democratic chain.

The decisions that local authorities take reach deep into the lives of their citizens and throughout those lives too, from the earliest days in education to the care of older people in their own homes and communities. The range of things that local authorities do go from those very significant services from the parking, the pubs and the pay, which Gareth Bennett mentioned, to the arts, the sports and the trading standards, mentioned by Mike Hedges. Every day, hundreds of services, provided by thousands of organisations—and over a year, reaching into the lives of millions of people—are provided by local authorities here in Wales. The elections to them tomorrow are a sign of their significance.

Of course, the impact of the failed, self-defeating policies of austerity have made an impact on local government here in Wales, as Hefin David so vividly illustrated. But ever since the year 2008, a sustained effort has been made to protect those services wherever possible here in Wales. That’s why, since the year 2000, while spending on local authority services in England has seen a cash fall of 11 per cent, spending on local services in Wales has seen a cash rise of 3 per cent. Or, to put it in a different way, the National Audit Office reported recently that in the five years after 2010, the real-term spending power of local authorities in Wales has fallen by 4 per cent. In England, it has fallen by 25 per cent—six times the level of cuts that have had to have been accommodated here by local authorities in Wales.

We heard from Janet Finch-Saunders, with the Conservative manifesto for local authorities—I think a crocodile would have been ashamed to have shed the sort of tears we’ve heard from the Conservatives this afternoon. The effect on local authorities in Wales is a real result of the cuts that have been made by their party at national level, which you see their party having to impose in England and which we are determined not to see happen here in Wales.

Now, as well as the cash that local authorities have available to them, there is the question of how that cash should be spent. And the Institute for Fiscal Studies reported last month that local authority spending on social care in Wales is 20 per cent higher than it is in England, with average spend in Wales higher than in any English region.

A gaf i ddweud gair o ddiolch i Dai Lloyd am beth ddywedodd yn ei gyfraniad e y prynhawn yma, yn canolbwyntio ar bwysigrwydd gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ond yn enwedig pobl sy’n gweithio yn y maes gofal? Un o’r pethau y mae awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru wedi llwyddo i’w wneud dros y degawd diwethaf yw dod lawr, bob blwyddyn, â nifer y bobl sy’n byw mewn cartrefi preswyl yng Nghymru. Maen nhw wedi gwneud hynny achos maen nhw’n rhoi gofal yn y gymuned i bobl fregus, pobl sy’n dibynnu ar y gofal y maen nhw’n ei gael yn y gymuned. Ac roedd Dai Lloyd yn tynnu sylw at y ffaith mai’r bobl sy’n rhoi gofal ac ansawdd y gofal sydd mor bwysig i bobl sy’n dibynnu ar y gwasanaethau yna.

The choices that local authorities make in Wales in putting that extra proportion of their spend into social care is a sign, not only that Welsh Government has made choices in funding the sector, but that choices have been made by local authorities themselves in Wales in protecting the most vulnerable.

Now, we know that if the present Government is returned in June's general election, the outlook for all our public services is bleak. It's why change is not a choice but a necessity if we are to achieve additional resilience in local government here in Wales. The Government’s proposals have been set out in the White Paper we published in January. I'm very grateful to the 164 individuals and organisations from all parts of Wales who have responded to that consultation, and for the constructive spirit in which those responses have been formulated. We will, as a result, move to greater regional working in Wales. We will have more shared services, we will have greater openness and accountability, and we will provide the local authority system in Wales with the tools it needs to respond to local needs and circumstances. Because, Llywydd, for all the partisan claims that have absolutely understandably been made here this afternoon, the real action is about to move beyond this Chamber, beyond those who are elected to this Chamber, to those thousands of candidates, from all political parties and none, who put themselves forward for election and, most importantly of all, to those hundreds of thousands of Welsh residents who tomorrow will play their part at the ballot box.

Whatever differences we may have, I think most people in this Chamber would come together to agree on the contribution that every candidate makes to our democracy, to the contribution that every elector makes when she or he casts their vote, and that it is the combined effort that is worth while, because without it, there would be no local democracy capable of making its contribution to what the motion rightly identifies as the key to the prosperity and well-being of our nation. Sian Gwenllian began, Llywydd, by saying that strong local authorities bring together strong communities and make a strong Wales. I entirely agree with that, and I think it's not a bad message for us to send to all those people who will be engaging in the practical business of democracy right across Wales tomorrow.

I call on Sian Gwenllian to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, and thank you for an interesting debate, despite the break in the middle. Janet Finch-Saunders, at the beginning of this debate, mentioned the impact of cuts on public services, but those are the cuts imposed by the Conservatives. They are your cuts, so it makes no sense, Janet, to vote Tory. It doesn’t make any sense whatsoever for anyone who wants to safeguard our public services. The cuts are part of your very deliberate campaign to destroy public services. People are aware of that, and people have had enough of that. You also claim that you are the party of low taxation, but, in Monmouth, the average tax is the highest in Wales: £1,649 per annum. I am pleased that the Cabinet Secretary mentioned the regionalisation of local government, and it is crucial that we do keep a close eye on this and on the issue of accountability as the proposals move forward. That direct link between the constituent and his or her elected representative is crucial, and I am concerned that that may be lost in the reform that is currently in the pipeline.

Neil McEvoy spoke passionately about his vision for Cardiff. He mentioned the LDP, which will lead to the loss of a lot of greenfield sites and a sea of concrete—’absolute madness’, as he described it. The emphasis should be put on bringing empty homes back into use; I agree entirely with that.

Dai Lloyd mentioned the importance of effective social services to keep pressure from the health service, and I agree entirely with that too. Very often, social services are forgotten in the wider debate on the reform of the care system in its entirety in Wales.

Adam Price mentioned zero-hours contracts, discussing Plaid Cymru’s amendments to the social services Bill and the way that they were rejected by the Government, and the way in which Plaid Cymru’s efforts to scrap zero-hours contracts have been rejected a number of times in this place. So, I am going to focus on clause eight in our motion, which calls on the Welsh Government to scrap zero-hours contracts, in concluding this debate.

Hefin David, no, this isn’t a motion for Twitter. This is motion for real people, people who are struggling to make ends meet on zero-hours contracts. You on this side of the Chamber agree that those contracts are unfair. Zero-hours contracts lead to uncertainty. Zero-hours contracts lead to inconsistencies in terms of working hours and income for workers. It’s difficult for anyone on a zero-hours contract to control the flow of income.

Will you take an intervention?

No.

Mae hyn yn ei dro yn creu dyledion, yn achosi straen ac yn effeithio ar ansawdd bywyd y gweithwyr a’u teuluoedd. Nid yw cytundebau dim oriau yn gytundebau teg, ac mae’n hollol amlwg bod angen i ni symud tuag at sefyllfa o ddileu’r math yma o gytundebau yng Nghymru, ac mae’r grym gennych chi yn y Llywodraeth.

Yn ôl Gwasanaeth Ymchwil y Cynulliad, mae hyd at 48,000 o bobl yn dweud eu bod yn cael eu cyflogi ar gytundebau dim oriau yng Nghymru—yn dweud eu bod nhw ar gytundebau o’r math yma; mae’n siŵr fod y ffigur yn llawer iawn uwch na hynny. Yng Nghyngor Gwynedd pan roeddwn i yn gynghorydd sir, fe wnaed ymdrech gwbl fwriadol i ddileu’r cytundebau yma a bellach dim ond llond llaw o gytundebau dim oriau sydd ar ôl yn y cyngor, ac mae yna drafod yn parhau efo’r rheini sydd yn dal i fod ar y cytundebau yma. Mae’r cymal yma—cymal 8 yn ein cynnig ni—yn ‘non-binding’. Datganiad o egwyddor ydy o, felly nid oes bosibl na fedrwch chi gefnogi datganiad o egwyddor—datganiad bod y Llywodraeth yma yn mynd i symud i’r cyfeiriad yma.

Mi fyddai hefyd yn ddatganiad o ffydd mewn rhai o weithwyr mwyaf gwerthfawr ein cymdeithas, y rhai sy’n gofalu am bobl mwyaf bregus ein cymdeithas ni heddiw. Dyma garfan o weithwyr sydd angen ein cefnogaeth lwyraf. Maen nhw angen parch. Maen nhw angen eu trin efo urddas. Mi fyddai cefnogi’r egwyddor o gontractau dim oriau mewn ffordd ‘non-binding’, fel rwy’n egluro, yn ein cychwyn ni ar y daith o wella statws gweithwyr yn y sector gofal. Mae’n hen bryd i hynny ddigwydd, ac mae modd i chi gychwyn ar hynny heddiw pe baech yn dymuno gwneud hynny.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.