3. How much public money was invested in the Wales and Borders rail network in the last financial year? OAQ(5)0613(FM)

[Inaudible.]—the Welsh Government provides £180 million in franchise subsidy payments and funding for additional services and rolling stock.

I thank the First Minister for that answer, and I declare an interest that my sister is an employee of Network Rail. I wonder if the First Minister can provide updated figures on the amount of profit made by the current operator of that franchise. I have figures for 2012 that show that that company made a profit of £13.6 million, and of course, that’s a company that is entirely owned by the German Government, and bidding is under way for the next franchise. I wonder if the First Minister can tell us whether he remains committed to returning the rail network to public ownership, and if so, does he believe that an opportunity has been missed in not using the operator-of-last-resort provision in order to bring it back into Welsh public ownership as quickly as possible?

I do remain committed to that. Unfortunately, of course, due to the provision in the Wales Act, it’s not an option open to us. We have not been permitted to look at an arm’s-length public body being used to run the franchise, unlike in Scotland. He will know that this is an issue where we share the same view and something that we are in dispute with the UK Government over. As part of the franchising process next year, we expect to see the best value for money delivered for Welsh customers, and, of course, significant investment in rolling stock. There are many people who use the Valleys lines who are on rolling stock that are many, many decades old. They deserve better than that and we want to see that delivered over the course of the next franchise period.

It is a strange irony, is it not, that Arriva trains receives one of the highest subsidies of any public train provider, and yet has just declared record profits. I’m sure that you, like me, would like to see a Government with a more rational approach to the way we run our railways after 8 June. But, for now, we have a UK Government that is, unfortunately, committed to insisting that the £125 million that has been set aside to improve our rail services must be spent on electrifying the Valleys lines, when all the experts are clear that light rail is both more cost-effective and will improve the journey times in a way that electrification will not. What do you think your Government can do to ensure that there is a much more rational approach to the way we invest public money, to ensure that we get the gains that are needed in the metro system that we hope to deliver across south-east Wales?

Well, we have a curious system where a public subsidy of £180 million is provided to a private company, which then makes a profit of £14 million on top. It’s very difficult to justify that sort of level. We weren’t in charge of the franchise when it was awarded last time around, but it’s very difficult to justify that to the public. Of course, light rail is electrified. There are different ways of doing it, you don’t have to have overhead cabling—there are other means of doing that—but, for me, the core principle of the metro is that it should be extendable. Yes, of course, we have the core network in place at the moment, but in time, the plan is to look at new routes that are not currently served by heavy rail. If we are serious about developing the region around Cardiff and beyond, then we have to make sure that people can travel without having to get into their cars, thus causing greater congestion. So, that extendibility and also the mix of provision that will be part, no doubt, of the metro, will provide that flexibility for the future as well.

First Minister, 60 years ago I would’ve been able to travel from my village of Raglan in Monmouthshire by rail to Cardiff. That can’t be done now, because obviously, we lost a lot of the branch line rail network back in the 1950s and 1960s. You’ve mentioned the need to make sure that the metro is expandable and that it reaches areas of south Wales and the south-east Wales city region that it hasn’t to date, or wouldn’t be able to at the moment. Have you looked any more at the issue of a potential metro hub at the Celtic Manor, or within the area of the Celtic Manor? I have raised this in the past with the Cabinet Secretary for infrastructure. I think that if you looked at developing a hub at that point, you could then have a very good core to build out from into the rural areas around Newport and up to my neck of the woods, to make sure that everyone could benefit from the metro.

Well, I’m tempted to pull his leg and say, ‘Well, the Tory Government closed down the railway line’, but I’m not quite sure whether it was or not. It was a long time ago. [Laughter.]

Not that one. I think we can share that.

What we do know is that in the 1950s and early 1960s, many lines were closed by Governments of either persuasion. We also saw, of course, the closure of the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth line to passengers in 1964, and to milk in 1973, with the track being taken up very soon after. A great tragedy and something we could have certainly profited from in terms of being able to run a service on that line, at least as far as Strata Florida now.

But, yes, I take his point: it is hugely important that areas of Wales that are not being served by any form of railway should be served in the future by a form of transport that may include probably light rail rather than heavy rail. We know, of course, in his constituency that much of the former rail track going out to Monmouth has been built over by the dual carriageway, and the Celtic Manor is an important part of our plans for developing the metro. As I said, at the core of the thinking for the metro is that the system should be flexible and extendable, and that means looking at parts of Wales that have not had a rail service for many, many years, as much of his constituency has not had.

Question four, John Griffiths.

Excuse me, Llywydd, I’m temporarily embarrassed, I’m afraid. I’ll have to get that question up.