5. 4. Statement: Brexit and Devolution: Securing Wales's Future

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 3:43 pm on 20 June 2017.

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Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 3:43, 20 June 2017

Can I thank the Member for his comments? I think it’s fair to say that before the general election the idea of there being an equal partnership of four Governments was not in the vocabulary of the UK Government. They saw themselves as being superior to the three devolved administrations, even in areas that were devolved. The language has changed. I’m not sure that the desire, in terms of what to do during the Brexit negotiations, has necessarily changed. There are three things that need to be in place before the UK leaves the EU. The first is that the Council of Ministers must already be up and running because the structure to decide what happens with devolved powers when they return must be in place when those powers actually do return. It wouldn’t be good enough just for us to see Brexit and then set up a Council of Ministers. Secondly, there needs to be established a set of rules that would govern the internal single market of the UK. Sensibly, it’s probably best to keep the EU state aid rules as they are until such time as a set of rules can be developed. Thirdly, and most importantly, there needs to be, as Members will have heard me say before, an independent court that polices the rules of the market. At the moment, there is a dispute resolution process that exists, but the disputes are resolved, ultimately, by the UK Treasury. So, if we are in dispute with the UK Treasury, it’s the UK Treasury that resolves the dispute, and that can’t be realistic or proper—well, it’s not proper now, but it certainly can’t be proper in the future. For any single market to succeed, if there are rules in that single market then all those involved in that market must have faith that the rules are being interpreted impartially, probably by a trade court. It could be easily done by simply saying, ‘Let the Supreme Court do it’.

With regard to Scotland, it’s not clear what Scotland’s strategy will be in the future. I think it’s fair to say that, in the past, Scotland’s view has tended to be, ‘Well, we agree with what you’re saying but our direction of travel is different.’ I’m not sure that is as clear following the general election.

With regard to Ireland, we have bilateral links with Ireland but Ireland are in a difficult position with regard to the British-Irish Council, in the sense that at the British-Irish Council the Republic of Ireland is part of the other negotiating party—it’s part of the EU, so it’s hugely awkward for the Republic of Ireland to offer a view in the BIC because it’s part of the collective view of the EU. The Ireland administrations find the BIC very useful because it’s their chance to meet with bigger jurisdictions, and they have a particular grievance in the sense that, if the UK leaves the customs union, so will they, without being asked. So, from their perspective, they find themselves in an invidious position. I think, in time, once Brexit is resolved and the Republic feels that it has perhaps a little bit perhaps more freedom than it does at the moment in terms of negotiation, then the BIC might start to grow. It has to be said that, historically, the BIC has not been the place where decisions are taken, and has tended to be a place where there’s been general discussion, some bilaterals, but it’s not been a particularly forceful body. In the more than seven years now that I’ve been First Minister, not once has the UK Prime Minister attended the BIC, which shows you, really, how much precedence the UK gives to the BIC, even though the Irish Taoiseach has always been there.

In terms of some of the issues that he raised, the issue of Ireland, again, he mentioned it in the context of the BIC. It does have, as I’ve said before, a resonance for us in Wales. If the maritime border between Wales and Ireland is seen as more difficult than the border between the north and south in Ireland, there are trade implications for us. Seventy per cent of the trade between Great Britain and the island of Ireland goes through the Welsh ports. Anything that interferes with that clearly is bad for Wales, and bad for jobs.

Finally, he asked about the continuity Bill. It is something that we are still considering. He has made the case for it—I’ve listened carefully to it and he makes a strong case for it. Whether the situation has changed since the election, we don’t know, but I don’t think we can take anything for granted. So, I can assure him that the continuity Bill is now being considered by lawyers.