Well, I suspect if he was there, then the plough wouldn’t move at all if I was trying to push it. I’ll try and be generous in terms of what he said. We’re in very different positions. There’s one thing that I agree with him about, and that is that it’s hugely important that the UK adjusts to the new reality. He and I are never going to agree on the customs union; I think we should be within the customs union. I can’t see there’s any other option. Ireland’s already been mentioned in terms of ensuring that, for example, we have fair play for our automotive manufacturers, for companies like Airbus, for our steel industry—that is the bare minimum that is required.

He is right to say that most people either voted for Brexit or have become reconciled to it; I think that’s fairly true. The problem is that people can’t agree on what sort of Brexit they want. We know people don’t want a hard Brexit; they rejected that in the general election. People will have very different views on what Brexit means for them. I’ve had people say to me, ‘I voted for Brexit because I wanted to get out of the European convention on human rights’ and I’ve had to say to people, ‘That’s nothing to do with the EU’. And yet some people have said to me that’s the way that they voted. Most people want to see Brexit happen—they take the view that the vote is the vote and that’s it—but it’s quite clear from the election that people don’t want to see it happen in the hardest way possible. They don’t want to see a situation where there is no deal; they don’t want to see a situation where there’s a cliff edge after March 2019; and they want the British Government to be reasonable in negotiation, conducting it from a pragmatic viewpoint, not a nationalist viewpoint, which they’ve been doing up until now.

I can’t agree with him on the issue of the convention. Now, more than ever, we need a convention. He is right to say that the journey towards independence in Scotland has gone in a different direction after the general election, but that’s not to say that, somehow, there is a lack of appetite for devolution either in Scotland or in Wales. That’s why it’s so important that, as we face the future, as we see the UK—which is now going to be like a miniature EU, rather than a country that looks like France or Germany in the future—that we get the structure right in order that the UK can maintain the flexibility that it’s been able to show in the past to enable the identities and viewpoints of the smaller nations to be heard while, at the same time, preserving the union. The union’s had to change. The union will have to change in the future. It’s in that flexibility that there should be strength.

His view is that we should become a low-tax haven. He’s said that several times. I cannot agree with him on that. I’m not prepared to dilute environmental regulations. Let’s not forget that the UK, at one time, had appalling environmental legislation. Our rivers were highly polluted, the air was polluted and we were responsible, in large part, for acid rain. It was the European Union that forced us to clean up our act, and the last thing we want to do is to go back to those days. That’s why, to me, it does make sense to keep the current corpus of EU legislation and, in time, examine what regulations are appropriate to Wales.