4. 3. Statement: Update Following the Grenfell Tower Fire

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 3:05 pm on 4 July 2017.

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Photo of Carl Sargeant Carl Sargeant Labour 3:05, 4 July 2017

Thank you for your questions. First of all, I am very comfortable with the scrutiny that takes place in the Chamber by yourself or any other Members on this issue. I am very clear that I do believe that this shouldn’t be partisan; it is about constituents who we all share an affiliation to and making sure the safety of this is paramount. So, I don’t mind the scrutiny in any case.

Can I say, in answer to specifics around the fire service, that I have spoken on several occasions to the senior officers in my team? I’m on call with them on a regular basis, alongside the landlords as well. Swansea council have, of their own volition, introduced fire marshals 24/7 on those blocks of flats. That’s aside from the fire service, and this is based on advice from DCLG. Everything that DCLG has advised in terms of the fire safety process, Swansea and Newport are implementing—either have implemented or are implementing in that process, and they are working alongside the fire service to deliver that.

I will look to see if I can qualify the discussions we’ve had by writing to the Member. I’m aware of that. I would hope that my word is good enough today for the Chamber, but I also respect that the Member may wish to see that in writing, and I will have a look to see if I can respond to her in that state.

The capacity of the fire service, I am aware, is okay. They have told me again—this was one of the questions I had in the discussion with them about the ability to resource the issue around this—that there are no issues. In fact, they were very proactive in making sure that they were going to use staff, alongside local authority staff or landlord staff, to work with tenants, to give them confidence. I think they’re a much more trusted source than politicians telling everybody it’s going to be okay. When the fire service says it, I think it’s just more of a trusted voice.

Just for clarification to the Member, when I said the issue around testing and then a whole-system approach to testing—this is not a decision of mine. This will be based upon advice from the DCLG group. If they move from sample testing to full panel testing, then, of course, that’s where we want to be, as well. I think that gives, actually, a truer result of the effects of fire safety on a building when you have a whole-system test, but if they do not recommend that and they recommend something else, that route I will take also. I will not be making a decision other than what the recommendations are from the DCLG advisory group. These are specialists in fire safety, and I will listen to those words of advice carefully.

In terms of activity across Government, I am the lead Minister on this, irrespective of building regulations or fire safety or health or otherwise. I am the Minister leading on this particular issue. I will have a conversation with my team in respect of the issues you raised with one of the health boards. If you could provide me with more detail about that, that would be really useful.

This is really fast moving. To do a full assessment of buildings at risk for organisations—with this material on them—is something we weren’t expecting. So it is taking a little bit of time, but I’m hoping that co-ordination can be coming together on that, and I will make a point of informing the Member of exactly how that is going.

On other actions we have in place, I mentioned earlier on to David Melding, with regard to what we can do if things aren’t happening on the ground, that we have the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005, which can be used regarding common areas of blocks of flats et cetera. We also have the role of fire service safety checks, again, where they can put prohibition notices on these areas, which can stop either the trading or the ability for them to rent properties. We can stop that through Rent Smart Wales as well. So, there are lots of actions we can take, and I am considering what powers I have also in terms of this field, but I will let Members know more detail about that.

A final point, if I may, Llywydd, on building regulations. We do have powers to amend building regulations already and we have a building regulation advisory group. But, again, I will not be seeking to amend building regulations, or the Minister won’t be, unless we’ve got evidence provided to suggest that we should. The current stated position is that the units that have been installed are compliant to building regulation standards. Now, if they are wrong or they require changing, then we will have a full assessment, again, in line with the UK Government. These panels don’t just spread from Wales and England. These are used on international buildings all over the world, so we have to be very cautious in our approach: not a knee-jerk reaction to changing building regulations because it feels right. We’ve got to base this on evidence on what is right by the expert panel.