What are the implications for Wales following the decision to hold a public inquiry into the contaminated blood scandal? TAQ(5)0200(HWS)

Thank you for the question. I welcome the announcement yesterday by the United Kingdom Government of a UK-wide inquiry into the circumstances of this tragedy. We all need to know the truth about what happened. That’s why it’s important that those affected have their say about the inquiry’s approach and remit. I’ve previously called for such an inquiry, and I’ve written today to the Secretary of State for Health, and I expect full engagement with those affected in Wales.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response. Campaigners and members of the Assembly cross-party group on haemophilia and contaminated blood, many of whom have campaigned for 30 years for this public inquiry, have told me that the inquiry must have the power to compel witnesses, as previous inquiries did not. There must be full disclosure of documents, because it’s alleged that some of these have been destroyed and that medical records were destroyed or tampered with. They want to know why blood products continued to be used, and warnings were ignored and patients weren’t informed of the risks; why alternative treatments weren’t used; why mild haemophiliacs were treated with concentrates; why commercial interests took precedence over public safety; why money allocated for self-sufficiency in blood was reallocated elsewhere; why self-sufficiency of blood supplies took 13 years in the UK but only five years in Ireland; why Lord Owen and Lord Jenkins’s departmental papers were destroyed, under a 10-year rule which does not exist. They want to know information about the Department of Health’s inaccurate self-sufficiency in blood products report, which was published in 2006, and they also want the role of the pharmaceutical companies to be investigated. Those are some of the issues.

How is the Cabinet Secretary going to use his role to ensure that these people who have suffered so much—. Bearing in mind that 70 people in Wales died, 273 were infected, and so many others have had their lives ruined, how will you be able to ensure that they have their say in the process, that they are able to have their voices heard? The Prime Minister has said that she wants an inquiry that will be what the families want, and I think it is absolutely essential that people from Wales do have their say.

Finally, I think that you have partly covered this, but did the Prime Minister or the Health Secretary contact you before actually making this announcement yesterday? I note that you have written to Jeremy Hunt today, but how do you see your involvement in how this inquiry is going to shape up? Because we do know that there have been quite a lot of difficulties in deciding on types of inquiries for disasters that have happened. Obviously, I think it’s crucial that this comes out with clear answers because the people who have been affected in this tragic way deserve the truth?

Thank you for the question. I ought to start by recognising, in response, not just Julie Morgan’s role in campaigning on this issue whilst a Member of this Assembly and as chair of the cross-party group, but also from her previous years in Parliament, with a real and active interest in this issue and the scandal that has affected people right across the United Kingdom, including here in Wales.

This has been an issue where, again, there’s been cross-party interest both in Parliament and in this Assembly. I’ll start with your final point, if you like, about the links between the two Governments. I have to say that this is one where I’m hoping that there will be a more respectful relationship between the administrations. I previously wrote to Lord Prior, on 20 October 2016, about this issue, following a response the Prime Minister gave to Diana Johnson during Prime Minister’s Questions in September of that year. I didn’t receive a response. I then wrote to Jeremy Hunt on 20 December 2016 and I didn’t receive a response to that letter either. If there is to be genuinely what the UK Government have announced they want to see, which I welcome—a genuine inquiry that listens to the people directly affected and involved, and, in a response to my constituency colleague, Stephen Doughty, in Parliament yesterday, the Government again indicated that they want the devolved administrations to be properly involved—then that does mean that there needs to be a difference in approach. Rather than simply deciding the remit for themselves at the Department of Health for a UK-wide inquiry, there needs to be rather more genuine engagement not just with the Government, but with the families and the victims themselves as well. Because, if another inquiry is provided that doesn’t have the power to compel witnesses and that does not provide full and proper disclosure, that won’t just simply be a missed opportunity, but will create further anger and mistrust from a group of people who have not be well treated for many years in the past. So, the announcement is welcome, but getting it right and getting the terms right and genuinely listening to the families affected and to the devolved administrations is really important. I completely agree on the broad outline about the need for compulsion of witnesses and disclosure, and I certainly hope that we can come to a proper agreement on that so that the inquiry will retain full public confidence as it undertakes its work.

Cabinet Secretary, I too would like to thank the campaigners and Julie Morgan and the cross-party group for their tenaciousness and determination in following this subject to this conclusion. ‘One of the biggest treatment disasters in the history of the NHS’, and that was the motion passed in the House of Commons in 2016, and I think it sums up the scale of this scandal exactly.

What I find almost beyond belief is the evidence that officials in the Department of Health knew or suspected that imported factor concentrates were risky as early as the 1980s, and yet the NHS continued to give that blood out or those factors out to haemophiliacs. Cabinet Secretary, will you assure us that there will be total transparency for any records that may be available either in or from Wales to aid in this inquiry?

There was, as you know, an independent inquiry instituted by Lord Morris of Manchester and it took some two years. Cabinet Secretary, will you exert what influence you can to ensure that this inquiry, whilst being thorough, is also timely? Public inquiries have a terrible reputation for getting utterly bogged down in process, but this is about people and the hurt they have suffered, and they want answers.

Will you also ensure—and I think Julie mentioned this—that the people in Wales who wish to speak or give evidence are given that opportunity? I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, if you would actually think about how we might support them to get there, and support them in giving any evidence, because I am utterly convinced that it will be an exceptionally traumatic occasion for them and if we can offer support to enable them on that journey, I think that would be a very kind thing that you, as a Government, and we, as an Assembly, could do. I’m sure that you will press for complete transparency, but could you assure us that any lessons learnt from the end of this inquiry will be implemented with rigour throughout Wales, so that this type of dreadful event can never happen again?

Finally, Cabinet Secretary, there is a question of culpability. If people are found to have been mendacious, deceitful, fraudulent, or even plain stupid, and any of it rebounds on any process, organisation, or person in Wales, I would hope that you can reassure us today that you will take appropriate action with them.

Thank you for that series of points, which I’m happy to say I agree with. I think part of the challenge in this is not just the pain of those families who have lost someone or someone who has become infected, but, actually, much of that is exacerbated by the feeling that there has been a cover-up and that people have not been told the truth and that has not been an accident. That’s why the inquiry is necessary, and it’s also why getting the terms right is necessary as well. I genuinely think that this is not an issue where the party politics should matter. To be fair, that has not been the approach of the cross-party group either in this place or in Parliament. I understand completely the call for transparency and for full and proper co-operation, and I am happy to confirm that, from the Government’s point of view, where information from Wales is useful to that inquiry, I fully expect there to be full and proper co-operation and transparency, so that people can see that we are genuinely playing our part in trying to understand why what happened did happen. The reason why we said that there always needed to be a UK-wide inquiry is the powers that exist for the compulsion in the inquiry, but also because these events took place before devolution, and so we were not in control of what happened at that time. That’s really important for people who want the inquiry to take place.

I want to be clear about how we can support the people of Wales. That depends on the remit and the way in which the inquiry’s set up. As a UK-wide inquiry, there needs to be a proper conversation about how people are supported, about making sure that this is a genuine UK-wide inquiry, rather than, effectively, an England inquiry then substituted to cover the rest of the United Kingdom. So, that has to be a conversation that I want to have with the Department of Health, which did not contact the Welsh Government before the announcement made yesterday. That was a point that Julie Morgan asked. So, that hadn’t happened at that point in time. I’m due to speak to someone from the Department of Health next week. Again, it’s disappointing, when a UK-wide inquiry of this nature is announced, that there isn’t an earlier conversation with this Government. It is not again necessarily about parties, it is about Government-to-Government relationships, and that this isn’t appropriate.

Actually, there is a real point here about people who believe in the union actually trying to make it work. It’s frustrating when things like this happen that do not do that in a way that actually promotes the interests of the citizen, which is what this is all about. In terms of as we are now, I’m happy to confirm that, actually, the way that blood products are managed now has changed significantly, and it should not be possible for the same scandal to arise in the same way. It is always possible that people are prepared to collude with each other, but the systems we now have in place mean that blood products in Wales and across the United Kingdom are incredibly safe, and you can trace where those products have come from. So, the screening that takes place now should be a real factor for assurance for anyone who uses blood products from Wales or any other part of the United Kingdom.

On culpability, some of those matters are not within the remit of this Government, but I would expect that any of the findings are used to properly hold people to account, as well as to understand and to learn. I think that is really important. If I may say, I think that, as well as the cross-party group, it may be sensible for spokespeople from the relevant parties to have a conversation between this week and the next to see if we may be able to find an agreed form of words from each of the parties in this place to sign up to in terms of what we would like to see happen in terms of the remit and the manner in which the inquiry will run. I think that, as well as Government-to-Government conversation, all parties being able to sign up to something may be helpful for us to do as well. But I’m happy to take up that conversation with the spokespeople after today’s question.

I’d like to take this opportunity to thank Norman and Jennifer Hutchinson, my constituents, who have very gently kept up the pressure on me to keep up the pressure, along with Julie Morgan and others here in this Chamber, on the UK Government to press ahead and help get us to this point. We’re not there yet, as Norman and Jennifer said last night to me. With the right leadership on the panel and the right remit, we could achieve the justice that is so badly needed. So, we need to make sure that we have those assurances now. Now, in thanking them, I’d like to also place on the record my admiration, as well as thanks, to all the families of those affected by this scandal for their steady determination to help over many years to get us to this point. In welcoming the offer of the Cabinet Secretary to work on perhaps a joint position across parties here—because this has been a cross-party approach—can I ask him if he will also make sure that he ensures that the families continue to be able to feed into him and his department in guiding him in how they approach UK Government over this matter to ensure that this is more than the potential of closure, but that this does resolve and answer the questions that have been so desperately needed to be asked for so many years?

Thank you for those points, Rhun. Again, I know you’re a member of the cross-party group as well and have taken a genuine interest in this issue. I, too, share the admiration of not just yourself but other Members in the Chamber for the tenacity of people who have not given up, not just on fighting for an individual cause for them and their family, but for a much wider cause that affected many other people across Wales and the United Kingdom. I also welcome your constructive approach to actually the potential for a cross-party letter as well. I think that could be very helpful.

In terms of the position of Welsh families, I’ve made clear that I want to make sure that families are directly and properly involved. And, of course, as a Government, we’ll need to talk to those people to give them an opportunity to tell us what they want to see, as well as directly trying to speak to the UK Government. I think, in the position that we take up as a Government, what we want to make sure is that we’re genuinely speaking on behalf of those families that have been directly affected. So, I am giving thought to how we do that. We have the ability to directly contact those families and to see what they want to do, as well as the Haemophilia Society and other support groups that already exist to support a number of those families. I have in mind the 10 points the Haemophilia Society have already set out previously for their position on the inquiry. So, that’s a helpful start for us as well, but we need to check whether there are other issues that families directly want to have brought up in the ongoing and unfinished conversation about the membership of the inquiry and its remit.

I’d like to first of all thank Julie, the cross-party group, and everyone else who was involved in bringing about this inquiry. Cabinet Secretary, I think it’s wonderful news that we are finally getting a public inquiry into this terrible scandal. My close friend, Faye Denny, lost her brother, Owen Denny, who died as a result of contaminated blood. Now, Owen, and his family and the thousands of other families who were affected by this terrible scandal, will hopefully finally get justice. The NHS is there to save lives, and it very often does, but it totally failed Owen and many people like him on this occasion. So, this dark period in history now needs to be fully investigated, and we must ensure that it can never happen again. We must also ensure that the voices of Welsh victims and their families are heard. Will you work with the Welsh Government to ensure the inquiry can deliver the truth about this appalling injustice, a truth that is fully transparent at all times? Thank you.

Thank you for the comments and questions. Again, many Members in this Chamber will be directly affected by knowing someone who’s been directly affected by the scandal. What we’re at pains to do is not to try and claim the Welsh Government can write the terms of the remit for the inquiry. We’ll do all that we could and should do to influence and to advocate terms of reference that meet the needs of families and what they actually want to see within the inquiry terms of reference. I’ll be completely transparent with party spokespeople around this Chamber on what we’re trying to do to reach that point. It goes to saying about the timescale as well, because almost all of us will want to see a brief timescale, but, given the period of time that this has taken place, given the number of documents that are likely to be provided or need to be provided and disclosed and then considered, I would not anticipate a public inquiry being quick. But I think, for those people who have waited so long to get to have an inquiry, to get the terms right, to make sure all the evidence is right and there’s properly time to consider that, I think, is most important. That means the inquiry has to be properly equipped rather than asking for an inquiry with a huge remit with hardly any resources to do so. So, they’re all points that we’ll be making in our conversation with the UK Government, and points we want to consider together with affected families. But, as I say, I’ll be completely transparent with this Chamber about the efforts that Welsh Government makes to try and advocate for the people who live here in Wales.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. The second question—Eluned Morgan.