Questions now from the party spokespeople. The UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Diolch, Llywydd. The consultation period for the document ‘Taking Forward Wales’ Sustainable Management of Natural Resources’ is supposed to end on the thirtieth of this month. I know that the Cabinet Secretary has had representations from many people to say that this is a vast exercise given the breadth of the consultation that is going on and the number of issues that are often very disparate. She has been very good, I think, as Cabinet Secretary, in her period of office, in consulting and being open to all views that have an interest in all fields under her control. But I’m wondering, in view of the pressure that there has been upon organisations like the National Farmers Union, the Farmers Union of Wales and others to respond to all sorts of other consultations, and everything else which is going on with Brexit and so on, whether she feels that the time period that has been given in this instance is sufficient to get a full breadth of responses to inform whatever decisions that might otherwise be made. Is it possible to consider perhaps extending this consultation period for a little longer?

I thank the Member for the question. I did extend it, as you say, to 30 September, following representations from the farming unions and other environmental organisations. And, certainly, over the summer recess, when I’ve been attending the agricultural shows and doing visits in both agriculture and environmental settings, it was very clear, particularly over the summer as well, that the document was a large one, and they felt that to make sure they gave views that would be considered, they needed the extension. So, I did extend it to 30 September. I don’t think I’m in a position really to extend it any further, and one of the reasons—and you mentioned Brexit—is probably Brexit. I think it’s really important we get as many views as possible in around regulatory changes, around what legislation we might need, and I need to be ready to go at probably very short notice. We don’t have the luxury of time, so, no, I don’t think I can extend it.

I’m sorry to hear that, but I understand the reasons that the Cabinet Secretary has given. And I know she can’t be drawn on the substance of matters that are subject to this consultation, but there is a question of general principle that I think it would be useful to explore here. One of my constituents has written to me to say, in effect, that what we’re trying to do here is to reconcile conflicting interests, both of which are legitimate very often. And he asked the question: how does one resolve local situations where one important outdoor activity unavoidably interferes with either the environment or with another important activity, even when both are being conducted in a responsible way. This has arisen, in this particular instance, in the context of access to open water and rivers and the conflict that might exist between canoeists and anglers. What he points out is, I think, a very valid point that, instead of having one overarching right that applies everywhere without any exceptions, we need to have some kind of local decision making that respects the specific circumstances of individual instances. He says, quite reasonably, that there are places where 100 canoeists splashing and screaming at each other all day wouldn’t affect angling, but there are other places where the passage of a single canoe, which is discreet, disrupts angling for some time. Therefore, we need to have local decision making so that these individual circumstances can be taken into account.

Absolutely, and that’s something that I think we’ve been holding workshops on over the summer period and that’s certainly something that’s been raised with me. We need to collectively identify the best approach forward. So, we can certainly look at that when we have the consultation responses in and they’re being assessed.

Another important feature of this also respects the rights of landowners and farmers. Obviously, it’s in the interests of those who want to see the countryside prosper that we have access as widely as possible, and the more people who get to understand the ways of the countryside, the better it is for all those who live and work in rural communities. But extending the right to, for example, cycle on footpaths, in the same way as currently happens on bridleways, offers new challenges about the riparian land, and similarly the right to camp in open spaces as well, and how one gets there in the first place. So, I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will try to balance the interests here very carefully indeed because farming is under pressure in many ways.

I think that the pertinent word there is ‘balance’. You’re absolutely right. You mentioned canoeists and anglers, and you mentioned cycling being allowed on bridlepaths. I have to say that, in some of the discussions I’ve had over the summer, they want to see a multi-use for these paths: they want to see footpaths, cyclists and horse-riding all on the same path; others don’t want to. So, I think you’re right: it is about a balance.

I’ve had representations around camping. You’re quite right: some farmers—I went to a farm up in the Snowdonia national park over the summer, where one farmer said, ‘There are 500,000 people visiting this park per year; I want to see as many people as I can on here’. Other famers don’t feel that way inclined. It’s absolutely about getting the balance right. So, certainly when the consultation closes on 30 September, we’ll be able to review the thousands, I think, of responses—I know it’s well up in the thousands now—that we will receive.

Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Simon Thomas.

Diolch, Llywydd. I hope the Cabinet Secretary did get a little break over the summer and, if she did, that she had some time on a beach. If she did, then she would have noticed the plastic that we have on our beaches these days. I think she had the chance, as I did, to meet the eXXpedition female sailing crew, who were sailing around the UK over the summer—or around Britain actually, not the UK, as sailing around the UK is quite difficult—sailing around Britain over the summer. They came to Cardiff and were highlighting plastic in our seas as well. If she did meet them, she will know that they were strongly in support of a deposit-return scheme. She’ll also know that the Scottish Government announced in August that they were interested in a deposit-return scheme for Scotland, and Zero Waste Scotland, for example, estimates that, in the Scottish circumstances, just on litter clearance alone, a deposit-return scheme could save between £3 million and £6 million. So, does the Cabinet Secretary now agree with me that it’s time to introduce, at the very least, a pilot deposit-return scheme here in Wales?

Unfortunately, I didn’t have the opportunity to meet the crew. I forget what happened—I think I was in another part of Wales, so I didn’t have the opportunity to meet them, but I was aware that Simon had met them. I’m sure that Simon Thomas is also aware that I spent the day with Roseanna Cunningham, the Cabinet Secretary for Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform from Scotland. She came down to Cardiff, mainly to see about our recycling, to see what she could learn from us. We did have a discussion around the DRS.

I’ve commissioned a study around a package or suite of things that I think we can do to reduce waste in packaging. I’m very keen, as you know, to get our recycling rates up. We’re now third in the world. I want to be first in the world. So, it was very helpful to hear what Scotland are doing and, as I say, I’ve commissioned this study, and once that’s been reported to me, we can decide on which aspects of it we do.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her consideration. I also met with Roseanna Cunningham when she was visiting Cardiff. I have to say, though, I very much, of course, support our sister party, the Scottish National Party. I don’t want them to steal a march on us here in Wales. I want us to be the first to do things like deposit return schemes and alternative ways of tackling plastic pollution. She’s right, of course, that we do very well on recycling, but the only countries that do better than us do have a deposit return scheme, I have to say. So, let’s examine one other aspect of this, because the UK Government Office for Science published an evidence review, ‘Future of the Sea: Plastic Pollution’ in July. This found that 70 per cent of all the litter in our oceans is of plastic of different kinds. We also had a report only last week that 83 per cent of tap water surveyed all around the world has been found to contain plastic fibres. So, I do think there are small policy interventions, and small nations can make those policy interventions that really change the way that we view the use of plastic, recycling of plastic and the reuse of plastic.

As well as a deposit return scheme, the Welsh Government has discussed the possibility of novel taxes here in Wales, with the new powers, and I certainly got the impression from the Cabinet Secretary before the summer—the Cabinet Secretary for finance, that is—that he was interested in how such small taxes could change behaviour and perhaps be used in an environmental way. Is this something that she is discussing with the Cabinet Secretary for finance, and particularly with a view to taxing or, in some way, levying this wasteful use of plastic?

‘Yes’ is the short answer. I think I’m meeting the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government next week, but I’m not quite sure if that’s on the agenda. But certainly, it is something that we have started to discuss. I’m very committed to reducing marine litter, and you may be aware that stakeholders have formed a marine litter task and finish group to tackle the issue of marine litter in Wales. I met with the group in Saundersfoot over the summer recess. Saundersfoot have got a brilliant scheme where they have—I forget what you call them—sort of A boards, where people can go along, take out a pair of gloves, take out a bag and can go and get litter off our beaches et cetera, which I thought was brilliant. So, I think there’s lots of good practice out there. It’s just about sharing it. I’ll be very interested to see what the task and finish group recommendations are.

I thank the Minister for that. I’ll certainly continue to urge her and the Welsh Government to introduce a deposit return scheme here in Wales. But to turn to another item of unfinished business over the summer, she’ll remember coming before the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee on 20 July. She was asked there around the community energy and non-domestic rates effect on hydro schemes in particular. In her reply to the committee on 7 September, she says that hydropower schemes have been disproportionately affected by the non-domestic rates revaluation. So, I’m pleased that she accepts that. She also says that she is now working and committed to finding a solution on the impact of non-domestic rates revaluation. The suggestion is that somehow the solution is to wait for a revaluation and a re-working of non-domestic rates that might happen in 2018 rather than deal with the problem that her own Government’s policies have given rise to now. Can she please give a commitment that the difficulty with hydropower schemes, which she now acknowledges, will be solved quicker than that, and that she will work with haste and speed with the Cabinet Secretary for finance to ensure that they’re not unreasonably penalised by changing business rates?

I can’t remember if I met with the British Hydropower Association before I came to committee or after, but it was certainly around that time. Again, I have shared correspondence with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, as has the association itself. So, I think, if I could, I will write to the Member with an update.

Conservatives’ spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, over the summer, the third annual implementation plan was published under the Wales animal health and welfare framework, and in your foreword, you state that the year ahead promises to be a challenging one, and I think that’s something that we can all certainly agree on. Now, that report highlighted that there is now scope to consider the option of banning the use of wild animals in circuses. Can you tell us why the Welsh Government has not already introduced a ban here in Wales?

We don’t have any circuses licensed in Wales. I have had at least two meetings with Lord Gardiner, the Minister with responsibility in the UK Government. We decided that we would work very closely with them around the possibility of having a joint ban. I last met with Lord Gardiner out in Brussels at an agricultural council, and I am due to have an update, I think, next month.

Well, I think it’s a real shame that, whilst Wales is advocating a ‘let’s wait for Westminster’ approach, the Scottish Government, for example, have got on with the job and already introduced a Bill, which is working its way through their legislative process.

Now, another priority highlighted in the implementation plan is in relation to welfare of animals at the time of slaughter. Following on from the UK Government’s announcement on CCTV installed in all English slaughterhouses, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that a high standard of welfare for animals is kept in Wales, including at the point of slaughter, and will you now commit to seeing CCTV installed at all slaughterhouses here in Wales?

Just in relation to your first question, it’s not a matter of ‘wait and see about the UK Government’. You’ll appreciate the legislative—[Interruption.] You will appreciate that the legislative programme here is very busy, for want of a better word. I am having to make sure that I have legislation being looked at ready for post-Brexit. I thought that was the best way forward, particularly because we don’t have any circuses licensed in Wales.

In relation to your question around CCTV in slaughterhouses, there’s an incredible amount of work going on with that. You will be aware that when I came into post, my predecessor, Rebecca Evans, had had a report undertaken by an industry-led task and finish group around implementation of CCTV. Just two weeks ago, I was looking at how many CCTV cameras were installed in slaughterhouses in Wales. I have to say that the vast majority of the large slaughterhouses in Wales do have them. You will be aware that vets are present in every slaughterhouse to ensure compliance with regulations. They have the power to seize CCTV footage if they expect welfare standards are not being met. So, I think that is one reason to look at having CCTV cameras in our slaughterhouses. I’ve got a piece of work coming to me by the end of this month to look at whether we then make that mandatory or not.

Well, Cabinet Secretary, I have asked you, obviously, two specific questions now, and it seems to me that the Welsh Government is dithering on both. There is a perception, therefore, that the Welsh Government talks big on animal welfare issues but delivers very little. For example, when do you intend to review the effectiveness of the Animal Welfare (Breeding of Dogs) (Wales) Regulations 2014? When will you address the issue of the breeding, trade and keeping of exotic pets in Wales? Therefore, when will we start seeing specific action to deliver better animal welfare across Wales, including some concrete timescales on these policies?

I don’t think it’s a matter of dithering; I think it’s a matter of getting things right. You also have to realise the cost of these things. Maybe if we’d had a bit more money from your UK Tory Government, maybe we’d be able to do everything. But, the budget isn’t in—[Interruption.] You will appreciate these things. So, for instance, the cost of putting CCTV in every slaughterhouse runs into hundreds of thousands of pounds. So, you need to make sure—[Interruption.] And all the other things that you suggest. I don’t think you can say that we dither around animal health and welfare standards in Wales.