I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motions formally. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Motion NDM6541 Elin Jones

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects Neil McEvoy (Independent) as a Member of the Petitions Committee.

Motion NDM6542 Elin Jones

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru) as a Member of the Petitions Committee.

Motion NDM6543 Elin Jones

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects Adam Price (Plaid Cymru) as a Member of the Public Accounts Committee.

Motions moved.

Formally.

And to speak, Paul Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I, from the outset, make it absolutely clear that we on this side of the Chamber have no issue with Plaid Cymru filling the vacancies on the Public Accounts Committee and the Petitions Committee? We also have no issue with Neil McEvoy taking a place on the Petitions Committee as an additional Member. Indeed, we think that he should take that place. However, we believe that these changes should not take place without also changing the allocation of committee Chairs.

Given that the political balance of the Assembly has changed once again, it’s even clearer that the Welsh Conservative group is the largest opposition group. Therefore, I want to once again put on record this afternoon my extreme disappointment that that the current allocation of committee Chairs continues to not accurately reflect the relative sizes of each of the party groups. As the Welsh Conservative group continues to be the second largest group in this place, it’s only right that that is reflected amongst the allocation of committee Chairs. Indeed, the Presiding Officer has also concluded that business managers must have regard to the need to ensure that the allocation of committee Chairs is politically balanced. As the Business Committee’s report notes, and I quote:

‘Whilst the Llywydd is satisfied that Business Managers have been aware of that requirement during their discussions, she does not agree with the majority view on the Committee that the current allocation is acceptable in fulfilling that requirement.’

Therefore, it’s my view that the Assembly should honour and respect the Presiding Officer’s determination because anything else, in my view, is disrespecting the Chair. The Presiding Officer makes it absolutely clear that a situation where the Plaid Cymru group has more Chairs than the Conservative group is clearly anomalous, and so the Business Committee should abide by that. Of course, the current number of Members now stands at 12 for the Welsh Conservatives and 10 for Plaid Cymru, and yet Plaid Cymru has more committee Chairs and more committee places than the Welsh Conservatives. So, it won’t surprise Members to hear that my view has not changed since we last discussed this issue in this Chamber. I believe that this is unacceptable, deeply undemocratic and frankly worrying that the National Assembly for Wales continues to operate in this manner. As a result, we, on this side of the Chamber, will be objecting to these motions as a matter of principle, given that these particular changes have taken place without changing the committee Chairs, given the Assembly’s current political balance.

I’m disappointed that business managers from other parties are not convinced that a change needs to be made on the basis that committee Chairs should have security of tenure. The role of Business Committee is not to keep Chairs in their positions come-what-may, but to reflect the ever-changing political landscape of the Assembly. To chair a committee is a privilege, not a given, and if the political landscape changes, surely Members must all respect that and be mature enough to reflect any new political balance.

In the report, the Labour Party’s business manager has raised the question of the permanence of the current balance, given that Neil McEvoy is currently suspended rather than expelled from the Plaid Cymru group, and, of course, that’s ultimately a matter for Plaid Cymru to determine. Her view is that there is a possibility that the allocation of Chairs may therefore need to be revisited again by the Business Committee. Yes, that’s true, but why are we making other changes if the situation isn’t permanent? Surely, following that logic, we shouldn’t be making any changes at all? And in any case, the Presiding Officer has determined that Neil McEvoy is no longer a member of the Plaid Cymru group and this institution should respect that determination.

It is simply not right that an opposition party in this institution with fewer Members than another opposition party has more committee Chairs, and this could have serious implications in the future for this institution. In the year of the twentieth anniversary of devolution, is this really the message that the Assembly wants to send to the people of Wales? If this situation is allowed to continue, then it has become clear that the majority of this Assembly no longer supports a balanced Assembly that reflects the political balance of its Members. Therefore, Llywydd, I believe that this is yet another sad day for the National Assembly and its operations, and a sad day for our constitution.

Moving forward, I sincerely hope that this Assembly will eventually deliver an outcome that reflects the political balance of this institution when co-ordinating Assembly business, so that the people of Wales can have full confidence that the Assembly is working in a fully open, transparent and democratic manner.

Could I please ask someone to clarify Mark Reckless’s position within the Conservative Party? Thank you.

Well, I don’t think there are—. Yes, there is somebody who wants to clarify. Mark Reckless.

I’m very happy to clarify. The Presiding Officer wrote to Andrew R.T. Davies and to myself and confirmed that I should be considered a member of the Conservative group for all purposes of this Assembly, just as she has ruled that the committee Chairs should be moved in order to reflect the balance of the party groups. It ill behoves this institution, which wishes to be considered a Parliament, that it will not even follow its own Presiding Officer or follow its own Standing Orders in line with what any reasonable democratic institution should do. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Thank you. There are no other speakers in this debate. All Members who have indicated that they wish to speak have spoken. Just for the record, my views on this matter—[Interruption.] I think I would suggest that you all are quiet, as I’m about to say something, and I don’t say it very often. My views on this matter are set out in the report that is tabled with this motion. I suggest that you all read it. It makes for a fascinating read in itself and the views of all business managers of all political parties are also outlined in that report. We have discussed this matter over a number of weeks and I am satisfied, and not disrespected, by the fact that the Business Committee has been through the process required by Standing Orders in considering this matter and that it has every right to make the decision it has. In a situation such as this, Standing Order 17.13 gives the Business Committee the option of revising the allocation of Chairs, but on this occasion the majority view was that it was not appropriate to do so. There is clearly a tension, on many fronts, between different provisions in the Standing Orders and an unprecedented series of events have led to the current anomalous situation. That’s why I’ll be asking the Business Committee to review the requirements regarding the allocation and election of Chairs.

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig i ethol Neil McEvoy i’r Pwyllgor Deisebau? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebu.] Gohiriaf y bleidlais ar hynny, felly, tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig i ethol Rhun ap Iorwerth i’r Pwyllgor Deisebau? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebu.] Gohiriaf y bleidlais ar y cynnig yma tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig i ethol Adam Price i’r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebu.] Gohiriaf y bleidlais eto ar y mater yma tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Yr eitem nesaf yw’r cynigion i ethol Aelodau i bwyllgorau ac yn unol â Rheolau Sefydlog 12.24 ac 12.40, rwy’n cynnig bod y cynigion i ethol Aelodau i bwyllgorau yn cael eu grwpio ar gyfer eu trafod a’u pleidleisio.

I call on a Member of the Business Committee to move the motions formally. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Motion NDM6544 Elin Jones

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects Dai Lloyd (Plaid Cymru) as a Member of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee in place of Sian Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NDM6545 Elin Jones

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects Sian Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru) as a Member of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee in place of Dai Lloyd (Plaid Cymru).

Motions moved.

Formally.

The proposal is to agree the motions. Does any Member object? The motions are therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.