5. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the principles that steer the Welsh Government’s consideration of new taxes? (OAQ51244)[W]

Thank you very much for that question. The five principles underpinning Welsh tax policy, as set out in the tax policy framework, underpin our approach to the consideration of new taxes.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer, but, bearing in mind that these new taxes and any new tax introduced does have to have the consent of the Westminster Government too, and in looking at the four taxes currently being considered, each with their benefits and disbenefits, how important is it for the Government and the Cabinet Secretary that at least one of those taxes, the disposals of plastics tax, seeks a change in behaviour rather than is one that raises funds? And would that suggest that a tax of this kind, as with the plastic bag levy in supermarkets and so on in the past, is a tax that’s likely to gain support not only in Westminster but also among the majority of the population here in Wales?

Well, Deputy Presiding Officer, just to say that one of the new taxes that we already have, namely landfill disposals tax, is an example of a tax that tries to influence people’s behaviour more than actually raising revenue. So, I acknowledge the principle that Simon Thomas has alluded to. The new taxes, when we consider them and when we make the case for them that we will have to present when we go to Westminster—there is more than one element that we can include in that assessment, and the impact on behaviour, with a few other things, is one of the important issues that we can work up and include in the decision that we have to take in the new year, when we come to select one of the options to put forward in order to test the new possibilities that we have under the Wales Act 2014.

Last night, Cabinet Secretary, I attended a cross-party group meeting on tourism, and there were many tourism operators there who were extremely concerned about your suggestion that a tourism tax should be seriously considered for implementation here in Wales. The genie, of course, has been let out of the bottle, and, even if you rule this out early on, which I very much hope that you will, the spectre of the very prospect of a tourism tax that you have now allowed to be in people’s minds will put people off. They’ve already said this at the meeting. Now, given the fact—[Interruption.] Given the fact that this has received such a negative reception from the tourism industry that it’s causing many tourism businesses to hold off on investing in their own facilities, do you accept that it was a huge error of judgment to even bring forward suggestions for a tourism tax, and will you now rule it out for the whole duration of at least this Assembly term?

The Member, as ever, so wildly exaggerates his case that it loses any impact that it might have made. I’m interested to hear about his meeting last night. I do hope that he wasn’t encouraging other Members—[Interruption.]

You’ve asked the question. Will you listen to the Cabinet Secretary give the answer, please, without interrupting? Thank you. Cabinet Secretary.

I’m simply saying, Dirprwy Lywydd, that I do hope that he wasn’t encouraging other Members of his party to attend that meeting and ask questions. Otherwise, the Member behind him—he will be in great trouble with her as a result.

As the Member knows perfectly well, what we have done is to propose four potential ideas—all of them utterly mainstream ideas, all of them ideas that have been tried in other parts of the world. All of them have been part of the debate that has been alive here in Wales over recent months. They are no more than possibilities and each one of them will be carefully analysed.

My real disappointment, Dirprwy Lywydd, in the contribution the Member made is that, instead of wanting to use the new opportunity that we have here in Wales to have an open debate about these things and to hear the evidence and to hear from people who have different views and then to weigh it up in a proper way, he wants to foreclose that debate before it’s even begun. I think that is a disappointing way to think about the way in which our democracy here in Wales should operate.

To follow up that question—I understand that the finance Secretary is obviously not going to be able to rule in our out any of these taxes at the moment—will he bear in mind, in making up his mind, the report of the World Economic Forum on travel, which ranks the United Kingdom 140 out of 141 countries in the world for cost competitiveness in the tourism industry? Only one country in the world has higher tourist taxes than us already, if you include things like air passenger duty and VAT, and maintaining the competitiveness of the Welsh economy, particularly for international tourism, ought to be one of the important principles underlying any decisions on taxes the Welsh Government makes.

I think that all evidence from anywhere around the world is worth considering as part of the debate we need to have about which of these taxes is worth taking forward. There are many examples from elsewhere of tourism taxes. We need to look at what their advantages are and where there have been disadvantages identified. The evidence that the Member has pointed to this afternoon can be taken into consideration in that wider debate.

Following on from Simon’s question on the principles underlying new taxes or levies, can I ask to what extent the future generations and well-being Act and the principles underlying that are enshrined within new proposals? We know that the proportion of elderly people requiring residential care is forecast to rise by over 80 per cent by 2035, less than 20 years hence, alongside a rise of nearly 70 per cent in the proportion requiring non-residential care.

Gerald Holtham and Tegid Roberts have suggested that a hypothecated trustee-led small levy going into a fund, an enhanced social insurance fund in Wales, could fund adequate social care in Wales for the foreseeable future. Wouldn’t this be a fine example of using the principles enshrined in the future generations and well-being Act to guide the development of Welsh taxes and levies and to improve the lives of Welsh citizens?

I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for that. Three of the four different possibilities on our list have now been mentioned this afternoon. I think that’s a really good sign of our ability to have a proper debate about the different ways in which powers that have come to Wales might be used.

The work of Gerry Holtham and Tegid Roberts is very serious. They met recently, I know, with my colleague Rebecca Evans and talked about more work that needs to be done to build on that possibility. What I’m then keen to do, Dirprwy Lywydd, as I’ve explained in the Chamber before, is to test the new machinery that the 2014 Act sets out. I will be discussing that with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury when I meet her tomorrow. There are a series of tests that we will need to be able to answer at the UK level here when a Government were to decide on which, if any, of the candidates to bring forward. Then, consistency with the principles of the well-being of future generations Act would undoubtedly be something that any Minister would expect to be scrutinised upon and tested upon by other Members.

Thank you very much. And finally question 6—Angela Burns.