The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

We now move on to item 8 on this afternoon's agenda, which is a debate on the Welsh Language Commissioner's annual report. I call on the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning to move the motion—Eluned Morgan.

Motion NDM6560 Julie James

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Acknowledges the Welsh Language Commissioner's Annual Report for 2016-17, which details the work undertaken by the Commissioner during the previous financial year.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. May I start by saying what a pleasure it is to lead this debate on the Welsh Language Commissioner’s annual report? This is the first opportunity for me to speak publicly in the Chamber as Minister, and I have to say how much of a privilege it is to be responsible for Welsh language policy in the Welsh Government.

What’s at the heart of everything we do in terms of Welsh language policy is our aim of reaching 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050. As my predecessor Minister, Alun Davies, set that challenge, I want to make it clear that I too am fully committed to that new strategy and that target of 1 million Welsh speakers. It is a very ambitious aim, but I do hope that we will focus on that target and that everything will be led from that target.

There are two things emerging from that strategy: that increase in achieving 1 million Welsh speakers and also increasing the percentage of people who actually use the Welsh language on a daily basis. At the moment, although some 20 per cent can speak Welsh, only around 10 per cent use the Welsh language. I’ve just returned from the Republic of Ireland, and there’s a relatively high number of people who speak Irish, but very few who actually use the language, and that’s an important issue.

One thing that is clear to me is that it is a very exciting time for the Welsh language. There is goodwill, I think, among the public, and I am eager to ensure that we take full advantage of that.

Any good strategy relies upon a combination of different things, and in the case of the Welsh language, that includes the creation of Welsh speakers, increasing the use of the language and putting the foundations in place, and, of course, regulation as part of that. I am therefore grateful to the commissioner for her annual report, which notes the work that has been done under her five strategic priorities.

The report also describes the work that’s been done during 2016-17 in terms of regulation and the Welsh language. During the time span of the report, the commissioner has also provided evidence to a number of Assembly committees, she has responded to many consultations here, she’s met with a number of Ministers and Welsh Government officials, as well as other politicians, and she has ensured that the Welsh language is taken into account when we draw up policies. The commissioner has also responded to complaints from the public and has placed statutory responsibilities on different bodies and organisations.

The commissioner has also commissioned research on the Welsh language in the areas of childcare, additional learning needs and customer attitudes towards the use of the Welsh language by supermarkets. Also of interest, I think, is the assurance report produced by the commissioner, which deals with the experiences of Welsh speakers, and this is part of the success of the standards regime, and to what extent public organisations assist people to use the Welsh language.

So, that, broadly speaking, is what’s contained within the report. Before I turn to some of the amendments, I just want to make it clear that I am very eager, at the very outset, to ensure that I approach this debate on how we should proceed with the Welsh language strategy with an open mind. I’ve only been in post for a week, and I wouldn’t want to tie myself or the Welsh Government into anything that would close down that debate today. So, I just want to make that clear at the very outset.

In turning to the first amendment, in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth, which relates to the use of the Welsh language under the standards regime, I do think we need to emphasise that there is a difference between the number of services offered by organisations on the one hand and the usage that people make of those services on the other, and I’m sure that we, perhaps, don’t take full advantage of the services available to us. It’s clear from the commissioner’s assurance report that was published in October, which is different to this annual report, that there has been an increase in what is made available, but, at the moment, there is no evidence in terms of usage and the number of people using those services. That evidence isn’t clear. So, we need to increase the number of people that use Welsh language services that the standards guarantee. Despite that, because the commissioner’s assurance report suggests an increase in the use of the Welsh language by bodies and organisations, I am going to encourage Members to vote in favour of this amendment.

The commissioner’s estimate for next year suggests that further funding will be required in order to maintain her reserves and, of course, we will take that into account. But, we must also bear in mind that we are in a very difficult period financially and everyone has to work within the means available to them. But, I am willing to acknowledge that we certainly need an adequate budget for the commissioner to maintain the regulatory system under standards.

If I could turn now, briefly, to the White Paper, I am very aware that I’ve huge issues on my plate: the WESPs, early years and improving the technology available through the medium of Welsh. I am also, of course, discussing the new Bill. At the moment, the consultation on the White Paper has just concluded. At this point, I’d like to respond to the second amendment in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth, which calls for reconsidering the abolition of the role of the Welsh Language Commissioner, which is one of the proposals in the White Paper. The public discourse on the White Paper has been very vibrant, and may I say, first of all, that officials have received over 250 responses? There are many things that now need to be considered. The aim of the White Paper is to endeavour to ensure the right structures are in place to support the strategy, and particularly to give guidance on the promotion of the Welsh language and supporting organisations to improve their provision. I hope, and I want the time to weigh up those responses to the consultation, and we will then make an announcement, having considered those responsibilities. Therefore, I encourage people to reject the second amendment, because it undermines the point of the consultation. I need further time to assess the responses to the White Paper.

I’m sure there will be an opportunity on a number of different occasions in the future to discuss the Bill and the new strategy, but, today, I hope Members will focus on the work of the commissioner and the report that she has tabled.

Thank you. I have selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on Siân Gwenllian to move amendments 1 and 2, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Siân.

Amendment 1—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add new point at end of motion;

Notes positive developments in Welsh-language use under the language standards system, which is managed by the Welsh Language Commissioner, only a year after they came into force, and which include:

a) that 76 per cent of Welsh speakers are of the opinion that public organisations' Welsh-language services are improving;

b) that 57 per cent of people believe that opportunities to use the Welsh language are increasing;

c) an increase from 50 per cent in 2015-16 to 96 per cent in 2016-17 in the number of telephone services where a language choice is offered as default; and

d) an increase from 32 per cent in 2015-16 to 45 per cent in 2016-17 in the number of councils that provide every page on their website in Welsh.

Amendment 2—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to reconsider abolishing the role of Welsh Language Commissioner as outlined in the Welsh language Bill White Paper.

Amendments 1 and 2 moved.

Thank you, Llywydd, and I’d like to congratulate Eluned Morgan on being selected in the role of Minister for the Welsh language and I’d like to thank Alun Davies for his work.

I’d like to move amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth, and I note that the Government is in favour of amendment 1, but is against amendment 2. Our amendments to this debate today do emphasise the importance of the role of the Welsh Language Commissioner and how that role has ensured positive developments in the use of the Welsh language under the language standards system, and that after just a year of them being implemented. The report does compare statistics for a whole year under the standards system and the year that they came into force. For example, 76 per cent of Welsh speakers are of the opinion that public organisations’ Welsh language services are improving and 57 per cent of people believe that opportunities to use the Welsh language are increasing.

My job is not to defend the commissioner’s work, but you can’t deny the robust evidence that has been presented in this report. The statistics show how effective the role of the commissioner has been in the six years since the office was established. So, I am concerned, and those concerns are shared by a number of experts in the field of linguistics, that making any structural changes of the kind that are proposed in the White Paper of the Government for the Welsh language Bill are going to undo many of the positive developments that have happened so far.

I outlined in the debate on the White Paper a few months ago a number of reasons why the Welsh Government’s proposals for the Bill weaken our basic rights as Welsh speakers. This afternoon, I want to focus on the idea of abolishing the Welsh Language Commissioner.

In a secret letter from the international agency of language commissioners, the agency does say clearly that there is no better way to hold a Government to account than through one independent language commissioner. And they go on to say that they have come to this conclusion because of their extensive experiences in this field. In the letter, they argue that the language commissioner plays an important role in regulating the provision of Welsh language services, and that abolishing the role would damage the positive progress that has been made so far. This letter was signed by 10 language commissioners across the world.

If the aim of the Government is to strengthen the basic rights of Welsh speakers, as well as realising the target of reaching 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050—and I welcome your commitment to continue with that objective—if that is your aspiration, then simplifying the process and moving forward and introducing more standards is what’s needed, rather than making structural changes. We need to move urgently on with the work of introducing standards for other sectors. I do understand that you’re about to introduce standards for the health service and it’s about time that that happened. Reports on standards for housing associations have been on the desk of your predecessor for two years, and the water companies for almost two years, and buses and trains and railways for nearly a year. So, I do greatly hope that you, as the new Minister for the Welsh language, will reconsider the abolition of the role of the Welsh Language Commissioner and will move forward to expand the basic rights of Welsh speakers across Wales.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

May I also start by welcoming the Minister to her new role and to wish her well? Perhaps she could start by explaining why voting against amendment 2 is in accordance with having an open mind on these issues. I thank the commissioner for her report; it’s a good idea to start with the 2011 census, given that the commissioner is fighting for her role, because she is bound to show that there has been improvement since 2011. The main impression drawn from this report is that the commissioner has been a little reticent in taking credit for much of the success that has taken place since 2011. The inputs and outputs are fine, but this is one report where the commissioner needed to actually boast about her own achievements.

The commissioner’s budget has reduced over the years and savings have been made, and this has gone hand in hand with a reduction in the promotional role of the commissioner. Whether the commissioner’s office continues in its current form or is amended, or if a new body is created, then, the Welsh Government will have to face two unexpected challenges. First of all, in terms of standards, it’s very likely that introducing standards for health services will ultimately, at some point, lead to more cuts and complaints, alongside more facilitation and enforcement work. Secondly, the promotion work, particularly encouraging community use of the Welsh language, must be uncompromising for an unspecified period.

This will cost money; it will cost more in ensuing years, and therefore the work to date must show value for money in order to fight for an enhanced budget for ensuing years, and to ensure that the 85 per cent of people who do feel pride in the Welsh language continue to feel that pride.

It’s clear from the report that a great effort has been put in to influencing Welsh Government policy. There has been some reference to the impact of that, but not much in the report. The commissioner may have missed an opportunity to draw attention to her successes and to talk about earlier inputs that have started to show positive outcomes now. This isn't the place for humility in terms of demonstrating the influence the commissioner has on Government policy.

In terms of securing justice for Welsh speakers, it's difficult to see, in this report anyway, the gravity of every complaint and possible failing. The Minister may be able to explain whether we will have that information in due time, to help us to assess arguments for and against the stronger dealings in certain standards. That is covered in the White Paper. It's interesting that more non-statutory concerns are raised rather than complaints about standards. Does this suggest that enforcement and facilitation is working? If so, why wait for the next assurance report? Claim that success now.

In returning to the main aim according to the commissioner herself, namely promotion, the report gives a great amount of information about how the commissioner has worked with sport, banking organisations and the third sector, and that's encouraging and interesting. With more resources, more could be done to bring more sectors along the pathway towards bilingualism without focusing so narrowly on standards. But, again, I would have liked to hear more about the outcomes and efficiencies of this work, not just inputs and outputs.

In a tight and highly estimated budget, otherwise, two comments: I am not sure why the programme costs line was so low when the outputs this year and—[Inaudible.]—last year were higher. It's a shame that more couldn't be given towards communication, particularly a social media strategy. It's ironic that the national aim is to enhance the ability of the nation to communicate in two languages, but there isn't enough funding available for the commissioner to do much of that herself. I would like to see the commissioner taking a visible and stronger role in engaging with non-Welsh speakers in terms of her promotion role. We need to actually turn some of the pride in the language into engagement with the language.

In the strategy to create 1 million Welsh speakers, we must think about adults today, not only children and not only by providing lessons for adults, but also to give them a role in promoting the language themselves. Non-Welsh speakers can be advocates for a better bilingual environment even if they're not bilingual themselves. They can ask for more bilingual signs or technology on trains and in shops and banks, and this is a way of demonstrating their pride. Perhaps it would bring new evidence to the debate on the best way of how to secure Welsh language rights in the private sector more generally. 

Could I also welcome the new Minister to the post? Also, could I congratulate her for saying that she has an open mind? That has characterised her and her attitude towards politics generally, the fact that she does reach out to people. And we greatly need that, I think, in discussing where we go from here with this White Paper because the debate about the annual report, of course, naturally, on the Welsh language commissioner, is under the shadow of a policy, as it stands now in the White Paper, which talks of abolishing the commissioner. As we've heard already today from the leader of Plaid Cymru, the consensus of opinion in Wales—and as we heard from Siân Gwenllian, that is reflected outside Wales—is that that would be an empty step and would ruin the consensus on the language that has been built very carefully over the last decade. So, I would urge the Minister to think again about the way ahead.

It was interesting, wasn't it, to see the 10 language commissioners across the world coming together feeling so passionately about this, because some of them do admire the progress that has been seen in Wales with language policy over the last few years, but they were concerned, to tell the truth, that there is an error being made here. Commissioners from Canada, Catalonia and the Basque Country and Flanders and so forth were saying that we have to protect the fundamental principle of the independence of the commissioner and that an independent commissioner individually is the best model that works across the board. They talked of the experiences of Canada in the 1970s, for example, where the fact that the commissioner was completely independent of the political process and the Government was a way to protect linguistic rights in that context.

I was trying to understand what was driving this suggestion, which was stupid, in my opinion, to get rid of a structure that is starting to deliver, as we’ve heard through the assurance report already. What was driving that? Some reference—that is, not much of an evidence base, to tell you the truth—to weaknesses in terms of governance. But, if we look at page 108 onwards of the report, we see that there is robust governance—the need for a strategic plan and performance reviews, and a deputy commissioner there as well, a management team, a risk and assurance committee, external audit and so forth. So, in my opinion, there is quite robust governance there.

Now, that doesn’t mean that we are satisfied with the current situation. There is scope for progress, certainly, but I wouldn’t say that the commissioner, perhaps, is to blame for that. For example, on page 58, there is talk of the private sector. It notes that, for example, with the water and sewerage companies, the commissioner has given a response to this consultation. In terms of the bus and train sector, which was mentioned earlier, the commissioner published a standards report on 1 July last year. That is, the Government is to blame that there’s been no progress in this direction. When we look at the gas and electricity sector and the utilities, the standards report was published by the commissioner in February 2017, and it has been on the desk of the previous Minister. So, could I ask the Minister to say whether we can move on now and have the response of the Government to these standards?

There is a reference on page 50 of the annual report to the freedom to use the Welsh language under section 111 of the Measure. It notes that, since the commissioner was established, 14 of the 18 requests under this Measure didn’t align with the definition of the section. So, since the commissioner’s role was established, there have only been two investigations into cases about the fundamental right to use our own language in our own country. So, there is scope for progress. There is scope in the new Bill to provide a fundamental right to people to speak Welsh. That’s what the Government should focus on, not getting rid of a body, which, according to the evidence that we have, is succeeding very well under the framework that exists at present.

I would like to start also by congratulating my fellow Member for Mid and West Wales on her assumption of office. She does, of course, have a large void to fill, because her predecessor was certainly a substantial figure in the Welsh Government and in Welsh politics, and I hope I don't alarm her too much in saying that I look forward to supporting her with as much vigour as I supported her predecessor, because I was a great admirer of his in the way in which he carried out his functions as Minister for the Welsh language. So, I wish her well in her post, and I'm sure that she will be as successful as he was. I note also that there's been a touch of class added to the Government since the reshuffle, as now 15 per cent of our Ministers are also members of the upper House in Parliament, and I think this is progress of a very high order. I welcome Dafydd Elis-Thomas also to his position. I look forward to more peers being appointed in due course, but that means we must have more peerages bestowed upon Members of this Assembly in order to achieve it, but there we go.

Anyway, I welcome this report, and I think that Meri Huws has been a successful language commissioner, as we've heard. The reason why I supported Alun Davies so enthusiastically was that he has placed far more emphasis upon carrots than sticks in achieving the objective of achieving a million Welsh speakers by 2050. I think Meri Huws, when she gave evidence to the Welsh language committee, the culture and Welsh language committee, a few weeks ago, also showed the degree of flexibility that is required if we are to achieve this objective. When I asked her, 'What would you have done differently in the last five years if you knew then what you know now?', she said that

'the way in which we work with organisations that are captured under the standards regime has changed.'

To start with, they imposed standards, which were

'far more formal—arm’s length—in our approach to organisations. Perhaps we discussed issues less on a face-to-face basis. We were far more paper-based. That has changed', as a result of which the relationship with local government has changed for the better.

As the Minister pointed out in her introduction to the debate today, it's no good just providing Welsh language facilities if people aren't going to use them. So, I think the overwhelming need at this stage in this process is to promote the use of the Welsh language much more vigorously than we have done in the past, and, yes, of course, in order to promote the use, you have to have facilities for people to use to make it worthwhile for that promotion to take place.

But I do think that there are very significant signs of progress quite beyond statutory schemes. Indeed, in the evidence that was given to the committee by the Welsh Language Commissioner recently, she said there are visible signs of people and organisations who don't have legal obligations taking the initiative on Welsh language provision voluntarily, rather than being forced to do so, and, over the past five years, organisations asking, 'How can I implement Welsh language provision?', rather than 'why?', has been significantly increasing, and I think that is the most optimistic sign. She says we see evidence of voluntary action on the ground in terms of our high streets. We hear Welsh being used more in business, in Cardiff city centre. She does believe that the culture has changed.

Of course, there's always more that can be done, but I do believe that the voluntary approach is one that is more likely to be successful in the long run, particularly as we try to break the language out of what we might call the 'laager' of the west and the north, where there's a much higher proportion of the population that understands and speaks it. If we are to bring English monoglot areas with us, I think this is the line that we have to take. So, I'm ambivalent on the question of whether the commissioner should be abolished and replaced by a commission, although I do think it was rather a weak response to the amendment put down by Plaid Cymru that—. If there's a consultation going on, we could see this amendment actually as part of the consultation, if you like, but I know that the Minister isn't going to announce today a decision that falls to be taken in due course.

But if we concentrate on outcomes rather than forms and structures of organisations, I think that is the way to go. We're going to abstain on this amendment today, because I haven't, like the Minister, quite made my mind up on whether this is the right way to go as yet. But I do think that we have made significant progress. The Government is to be congratulated (a) on bringing in the initial aim of a million Welsh speakers by 2050, and the progress that has been made in a relatively short time. The current Welsh Language Commissioner has made a significant contribution towards that, and I think she's to be congratulated. I wish the Minister well in her conduct of her office in the coming years, and I look forward to working with her, rather than, as we've traditionally done, worked against each other. 

May I add my congratulations to the Minister on taking her new role? I can assure Neil Hamilton not to worry overly about the void that there is to fill. Eluned Morgan is a substantial figure in her own right, so I think we can be confident in her ability to take on this agenda with aplomb. I welcome that this is a positive report from the Welsh Language Commissioner. There has, as she notes, been a shift in public debate, and, as she herself says, that direction has been set to a great extent by the Welsh Government's target of 1 million Welsh speakers. And that very declaration of intent over the long term in itself has had a catalysing impact. I think that is something that we should all welcome, while, of course, recognising the nature of the challenge before us. This is, as we've discussed before, perhaps the most radical cultural policy in modern times, and we should be under no illusion about the challenges ahead of us, but it's one that we must all approach with relish.

It's also very encouraging to note, in her report, the positive public debate that still persists. Eight-five per cent believe that the Welsh language is something to be proud of, and 76 per cent of Welsh speakers agree that public organisations are improving their Welsh language services. I think that is very encouraging. Also as encouraging is the fact that 68 per cent of people would like to see Welsh being used by supermarkets in Wales, and I strongly endorse that. I think there is no excuse for such large organisations, delivering essential public services, not to be engaging in the spirit of this legislation.401

I think it is important, as we take forward the evolution of our approach, that we set a culture where we are helping organisations to succeed and are not setting in place a series of bureaucratic hurdles that make it difficult for them to comply, where we try to trip them up. I think the commissioner agrees that the current process is overly bureaucratic. The legislation does set out a rather rigid approach which, having spoken to Welsh language officers from different parts of Wales, they themselves are frustrated by. For example, I was quoted the example where, if somebody makes a complaint about a local authority service, for example, the commissioner first has to conduct an investigation into whether she will look into it, which the commissioner's office always does. Therefore, this is an unnecessary part of the process; they could go straight into the investigation.402

So, I think having the benefit of experience of this legislation, there is much we can do to use resources more efficiently and to build goodwill in the process, because there's no doubt that some backs have been got up in local authorities in particular.403

I'm encouraged by the number of complaints there have been. There have been relatively few—151 complaints. Of these, 124 were considered to be valid. Now, what we don't know, and what the commissioner was unable to tell the culture commissioner recently, is how many complainants there have been. There may well have been 151 complaints, and there could, of course, have been 151 complainants, but, equally, there could have been a much smaller number of complainants making repeated complaints. So, it would be useful to have some clarity on that. Of those complaints, a third are about correspondence and telephone services, and 32 complaints related to courses offered. So, this does not indicate a massive groundswell of frustration, although, of course, we should take them seriously. So, I think that is positive.404

Just to go on, then, finally, Llywydd, the commissioner herself makes the point that it's in education that the future of achieving this target, of course, is most essential. She notes that four out of five pupils are learning the language at school, which, of course, suggests that 20 per cent of pupils in Wales are not learning the language at school. This is in the context of where it's been the law for over a generation that all pupils in school, under 16, are taught Welsh. So, I think this lightly touched upon figure is pretty staggering, really, within that context, and I think it should alarm us. Not only are a fifth of schoolchildren not being taught Welsh, but the quality and the provision of Welsh amongst those that are being taught Welsh as a second language in schools that are English medium, which obviously remains the significant majority, simply isn't good enough in many cases. It's something Estyn has touched upon, and those of us who visit English-medium schools in our constituencies will be acutely aware of: it is, in many cases, a token effort. And I don't overly criticise schools for this. We are not developing the skills and the environment where enough of an emphasis is being placed on this. We often have children being taught Welsh by teachers who themselves don't speak any Welsh. This, to me, is the generational challenge for us if we are to meet this challenge we've set ourselves.

The commissioner says it's apparent that the growth of Welsh-medium education—. Sorry, she says that Welsh-medium education shouldn't just be—. Apologies, she's saying that the growth of Welsh-medium education is clearly the way forward. But I would say we shouldn't just be seeing this in the context of growth of Welsh-medium schools, because that is to let off the hook the majority of the schools that are tasked, under the current legislation and our current policy environment, to teach children to speak Welsh as an everyday language. That currently is not being done, and that's where I'd like our emphasis to be in the next period. Diolch.

I call on the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning to reply to the debate. 

Thank you very much. May I start by paying tribute to Alun? I'm very pleased that he is back in his seat, because I do want to highlight just how much work he has done on this issue. His commitment to the Welsh language has been absolute, and he has been driving these ideas forward and aiming towards that target of a million Welsh speakers. I know that I can rely on Alun to help me in driving that forward within Government more generally. 

May I thank Siân Gwenllian for her response? I do think that it's important that we do move forward with this aspiration to do as much as we can in as many different ways as possible. It's not all about standards. It's not all an emphasis on the commissioner. We must look at this in a far more holistic way.

What I don't want to do is to give this idea that, if we are going to change something, then whatever replaces it will be weaker. That simply won't be the case. I can be entirely clear on that. I am open minded, but I want everyone to be open minded on this issue, too. I do want to give that guarantee that this will not lead to any diminution.

I have spoken to the Welsh language commissioner this morning, and have underlined the importance of an evidence base for everything that we do, and also looking at the experience of other nations where minority languages are spoken. I think what Adam Price said is important, but I do want to ensure that we look beyond the systems currently available. Let's return time and again to look at the evidence and to look at what works best. I do think we need to simplify the situation and to make it less administrative. We must make it easier for people who have complaints. 

Suzy, may I make it clear that I don't want to close down any options? If the idea is that we should retain the commissioner, well, that is an option. If we abolish, that’s another option. If I agree with the amendment, then I would be closing down one of those options, and I don’t want to do that.

Now, I do think that we must look in detail at the efficiency of the work that everyone within the sector does—how effective is the work that’s being done? I think we must ensure that this work—. I think that that's a fair point, that we engage better with non-Welsh speakers and Welsh learners. There is certainly scope to do that, and I do think that this is where we will make gains towards this aim of a million Welsh speakers.

Adam Price, you’ve said that there is a consensus of opinion. Well, I’m not aware of that consensus. I haven’t seen the responses, as of yet. Clearly, you haven’t seen the responses either, so I don’t think it’s fair to say that there is a consensus as of yet. We will see whether that consensus is in place and then, obviously, we will take that into account. But I do think that we should also consider that the report—

I was talking about the main Welsh language organisations that have convened their opposition to the idea of abolishing the Welsh Language Commissioner.

Well, we need to listen to everyone in Wales. I think that’s important. There are professionals, there are others, and we need to listen to everyone, and we must reach the million. We have to listen to those people who will be learning Welsh. I want to listen to those people who don’t currently speak Welsh. I want to hear their opinions. Now, maybe they have responded, perhaps they haven’t.

In terms of standards, Neil Hamilton, I think you are right. Alun used 

carrots rather than sticks. I would also like to use carrots. I am very clear that, if you’re talking about language, you’ve got to persuade people. You can’t make people use a language.

I think we have to be persuasive, rather than insisting that people do things. We do need more details in terms of the number of complainants and what was the efficiency of the commissioner’s office. I want to see benchmarking happening. And that’s something that jumped out at me, namely that only four in five children actually learn Welsh. We must look into the reasons behind that.

So, there are a number of things that we can do. I think the most important thing for us to bear in mind now is that we retain that focus on a million Welsh speakers. There is a pressure on the Government to lead in this area, and the Government will lead in this area. We must also think about the economy. The economy is crucially important in this discussion. But the Government can’t do all of this alone. The people of Wales have to join us on this journey and we have to persuade them to do that. 

The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? Amendment 1 is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 

Amendment 1 agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The proposal is to agree amendment 2. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.