The next item is a debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21, and I call on Julie Morgan to move the motion.

Motion NDM6528 Julie Morgan, Angela Burns, Dai Lloyd, Joyce Watson, Jenny Rathbone

Supported by Jayne Bryant

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales: 

1. Recognises that female genital mutilation (FGM) is widely practised worldwide and an estimated 2,000 women and girls in Wales are living with the consequences of FGM.

2. Calls on the Welsh Government to:

a) use every opportunity to raise awareness of this practice;

b) encourage schools to discuss this as part of the Personal and Social Education curriculum and in staff training;

c) raise awareness of this practice among GPs and all medical practitioners; and

d) do all it can to ensure communities most affected receive help and support to tackle the problem.

Motion moved.

Diolch. I think it's very important to start this debate on female genital mutilation by hearing the voices of women directly affected. So, we're going to start by playing a short clip from the film called A Change has Begun, which I'd like to warn Members is quite powerful.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

An audio-visual presentation was shown. The transcription in italics below is a transcription of the oral contributions in the presentation. 

What is FGM?

I was cut when I was seven.

I was 13 years old.

I was 16 when I was cut.

It was done in the school holiday. 

I was nine.

There were 20 of us and I was the oldest with the youngest being two, and she later died.

It was part of our culture; it was part of being who we are.

I was so excited, you know.

For you to come out like a princess.

There was lots of dancing.

We had dancing.

Singing.

It was a really, really big party.

Because I was so young, I still didn't understand what was going to happen to me.

Then it was time for me to go into the next room.

This woman blindfolded me.

I was thrown on the floor.

I was shaking.

Some women pulled my legs apart and pinned my shoulders down.

And I filled every width of my chest.

I couldn't breathe; I couldn't move.

The woman sat on me and I felt a very sharp cut between my legs. It was so painful.

When they started cutting, I screamed so loud that the women gagged me to stop me from screaming.

I have no words to explain.

The pain I felt that day.

At that pool of blood, that's where every girl was cut.

I can still feel the sensation of it every time I think about it.

They used the same blade on all of us.

My auntie was a cutter.

The women—you see the joy in their faces, knowing that you are now a woman.

I'd like to thank my colleagues Jenny Rathbone, Joyce Watson, Jayne Bryant, Dai Lloyd and Angela Burns, who can't be here today, for supporting this debate today. I'd also like to thank Jane Hutt for her support on this issue.

Female genital mutilation—the process of cutting or disfiguring young girls and women for non-medical reasons—is an extreme form of discrimination against them. FGM is mostly carried out on young girls some time between infancy and age 15. It causes severe bleeding and health issues, including cysts, infections, infertility as well as complications in childbirth and increased risk of newborn death.

There are four categories of FGM, which range in severity, and are harmful procedures carried out for non-medical purposes. Eighty per cent of women have undergone either type 1 female genital mutilation, which is partial or total removal of the clitoris, or type 2, which also includes removal of the labia.

The statistics on FGM are complex, and there isn't one single point of data, which is something that we are looking for, and which I'll come onto later, but we do know that, from October 2016 to October 2017 in the Cardiff and Vale University Local Health Board, 203 women were living with FGM who had actually been to see health practitioners. Data from all seven health boards in Wales show that 123 victims needed medical care as a result of FGM, as well as 44 children who were vulnerable to being subjected to FGM, and it is estimated that 2,000 women are living with the effects of FGM in Wales. But, of course, we all know that this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of numbers.

I'm sure everybody in this Chamber knows it is illegal, and it has been for 32 years. The law was strengthened in 2003 to prevent girls travelling abroad to undergo FGM. In October 2015, a mandatory reporting duty to report known FGM in under 18s was brought in. But we're still in a fight to end the practice of FGM. While more cases are being reported, there still has not been a successful conviction in more than 30 years.

But professionals working with victims of female genital mutilation say you can't change culture just with prosecutions. You need education; you need community champions. The wider population here who think it doesn't happen in their back yard must be made aware of FGM too. As well as teachers, doctors, police and social workers, we must educate teaching assistants, health visitors, school secretaries, doctors' receptionists and more. FGM must be talked about widely and in a matter-of-fact way, in the same way that we talk about the health dangers of smoking. It's not an issue that we should tiptoe around, and professionals who are working in this field wanted us to have this debate today, wanted us to be open and to talk about all these issues in an open, matter-of-fact way.

Of course, I know that the Welsh Government is committed to tackling FGM, and I welcome, of course, the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015 in which female genital mutilation is included as a form of gender-based violence. At this point, I would like to pay a personal tribute to Carl Sargeant, who would, of course, have been answering this debate, for his total commitment and work to eradicate violence against women, and his initiation of this legislation. He saw female genital mutilation as part of the whole problem of violence against women. It is an absolute integral part, as it is a form of gender-based violence. In this Chamber, Carl said we should not shy away from tackling culturally sensitive issues, such as FGM, which are not acceptable in our society.

So, in this motion, we call on the Welsh Government to use every opportunity to raise awareness of this practice in schools and among staff and trainee teachers, and I welcome the fact that the Cabinet Secretary for Education wrote to all headteachers in July to seek their assistance in helping eradicate FGM. Teachers have a vital role to play in spotting potential cases where girls may be at risk of FGM, particularly when school holidays are approaching, as girls are often sent to be cut under the guise of visiting family members in countries where FGM is rife.

I know the new curriculum has not yet fully come in, but I would like to see that tackling FGM as part of the sex and relationship education curriculum is mandatory, not optional. So, I don't know whether it would be possible, in the ministerial response, for the Cabinet Secretary to outline whether pupils will be taught about female genital mutilation as part of the health and well-being area of the new curriculum being devolved in Wales, because I think it is absolutely essential that learning about FGM is part of a whole, that it is integrated into the whole of health and well-being.

I would also like to ask if the Cabinet Secretary could tell us when is the healthy relationships expert panel's report due to be made public, and can she clarify when detailed planning of the topics included in this part of the curriculum will be carried out. And, in terms of new teacher training programmes, could it be clarified whether female genital mutilation will be specifically taught as a topic?

The work of educating people in communities in which FGM is practised is key, and I'd like to pay tribute to the work of BAWSO, which supports black and ethnic minority women affected by FGM. I believe members of BAWSO have come here today. I have been involved with BAWSO since it was set up in 1995 and they do a huge amount of work offering support to women who have undergone FGM and raising awareness of it. And it is absolutely vital that the work is done in communities to support people and to try to offer education and understanding within the communities where this may be practiced.

BAWSO have helped set up the Wales FGM forum, and have raised awareness in more than 20 diverse communities here in Wales, and more than 2,200 professionals have been trained. In the last seven years, they've engaged with 4,350 people and they've offered one-to-one support and community engagement. BAWSO also runs a very important 24-hour FGM helpline. I think we shouldn't shy away from tackling this issue with communities. I think Carl said, when he spoke here in the Chamber, about you have to face up to these culturally sensitive issues, because you can do it and you can do it in a way that condemns the practice but doesn't condemn the communities, that makes an effort to understand why people think that this is the right thing to do and to try to change this practice.

So, I feel that it is very important that we've having this debate today, because we are actually trying to open up this subject to debate it in public here in the National Assembly for Wales and to show that we recognise that it is our duty as a National Assembly and as a Government here in Wales to recognise the harm that this practice does and to do everything we can in as sensitive a way as possible to see that it ends. So, I look forward to hearing the other speakers about this issue.

Thank you very much. Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you, Julie Morgan, for proposing this difficult debate, and also for showing the video, because I think the video very clearly demonstrates that most people do not know what FGM is. Therefore, it's very important that we articulate what FGM is so that the public at large is aware of this in order to gather support for stamping it out.

I'd just like to highlight an exhibition that's on at the moment at the national museum for Wales that is being curated by people linked to the Huggard homelessness charity. It's called 'Who Decides?' and it's questioning why it is official curators should be deciding on what is art and what we ought to be looking at, as opposed to ordinary members of the public, particularly those who have suffered acutely in their lives, which is what has brought them to homelessness.

I was extraordinarily moved by a series of etchings that are in the exhibition, which were chosen by somebody called Helen Griffiths, who wrote, 'I can empathise with needing to escape reality for a while, away from all the horrible things that have happened'. The images are very graphic in showing how women hold down the girl, and it is women who normally conduct this horrific operation. But also the last painting is one of the mother then cradling the child after it's had this dreadful thing done to it. I just think that is a really important way in which it brings to a much wider audience what female genital mutilation involves. 

This is not a new phenomenon. My great aunt was campaigning, along with other feminists, on this in the 1920s and we are still discussing it as opposed to stamping it out. Obviously, a lot has been done, and there's a lot of work being done by some of the diaspora communities that now live in the UK to change attitudes towards this being an appropriate thing to do to your girls. But we need to regard it as something akin to polio or smallpox or cholera. This is something that's so horrific. There is absolutely no benefit whatsoever in health terms, and it is just a way of suppressing women and girls' sexuality.

So, as Julie has already mentioned, we know that there are at least 200 women living in the Cardiff and the Vale area who have been the victims of FGM, because all women who become pregnant obviously become the focus of the support and the healthcare of the local health board, and I'm very pleased that Cardiff and the Vale has appointed a specialist FGM midwife whose job it is to set up a specialist clinic, which is due to open early next year. I'm very pleased that this clinic is not going to be at the Heath hospital; it's going to be at the Cardiff Royal Infirmary in Adamsdown, which is an appropriate place for it because it is easy for people in the communities involved to access it via local bus services and it is part of the community. So, that is a very good step forward and is absolutely essential, but obviously the work that we really need to be doing is to prevent women and girls from suffering from this abomination in the first place. 

Thank you. Jane Hutt.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you for calling me to speak. I’d also like to thank Julie Morgan and other Members for initiating this important debate. I think this is a policy issue that requires a cross-government approach, with the equality and social justice goals of the Welsh Government at the forefront of the action required. So, alongside Julie Morgan, I welcomed the action taken in July by the Cabinet Secretary for Education, who wrote to all schools in Wales highlighting the important role they can play in identifying potential victims and safeguarding them from FGM.

The NSPCC identifies some possible warning signs in a girl who has undergone FGM, such as being unable to cross her legs while sitting on the floor, being in pain or clutching at her body, and going to the toilet more often than usual and spending longer there. But, sometimes, there are no obvious signs as a young girl may be taken abroad over the summer holidays and be subject to FGM—as we saw on the film—to recover before the autumn term. This is known as 'the cutting season'.

This practice keeps FGM hidden and under the radar. The education Secretary has asked schools to be aware of this. I think it would be helpful to know more about the follow-up and monitoring by the Cabinet Secretary of her action to engage schools, particularly in terms of ensuring that staff have the necessary training and tools to help them effectively and confidently assist in addressing this highly sensitive issue. A cross-government response to FGM is vital, but, if we're to tackle this unacceptable abuse against women and girls, it's also vital that we recognise the role of the third sector, especially those who have the evidence, the skills, the cultural understanding and the experience to respond appropriately. BAWSO, as we've all heard, is an all-Wales organisation that has been supporting BME families affected by FGM for over 20 years.

In 2010—as Julie Morgan and Jenny Rathbone have already identified—they initiated the FGM community forum, which covers the Cardiff and Vale University Local Health Board with wider membership, including the NSPCC and Welsh Women's Aid. The forum's work has involved conducting surveys of practitioners to find out their level of knowledge of FGM as well as their confidence in supporting victims and survivors, and the forum has also been at the forefront of this campaign for an FGM clinic, as Jenny Rathbone has said—a good step forward, due to open soon, early in the new year.

But I've worked closely with BAWSO and know that their aim is to strengthen communities to take ownership of FGM, as Julie Morgan has said, through education awareness campaigns, in order to tackle this appalling form of abuse and eradicate it. Awareness raising is key. The wall of silence and secrecy that surrounds this topic keeps victims hidden and allows this devastating form of abuse to thrive—and it is abuse, with millions of women affected across 30 countries worldwide.   Many of us will have seen the programme on BBC Two last week with Kate Humble looking at south-west Kenya, where FGM is illegal but still deeply rooted in local culture. We witnessed local campaigners like Susan, an FGM survivor, and Patrick, a young man from the community, working tirelessly in the rural Kuria community to raise awareness and rescue young girls and women.

According to the World Health Organization,

'FGM is recognized internationally as a violation of the human rights of girls and women. It reflects deep-rooted inequality between the sexes, and constitutes an extreme form of discrimination against women. It is nearly always carried out on minors and is a violation of the rights of children.'

To expose it, we must talk about it, we must have a cross-Government response and we must engage with those who are working at the front line. It is for that reason I welcome this debate. We must be guided by those on the front line, like BAWSO, and we must ensure that FGM is a priority for the Welsh Government and all statutory bodies here in Wales.

First of all, I want to thank Julie for bringing this debate, because if we can't talk about it, then nobody can. If we don't talk about it, nothing gets changed and it forever stays in the darkest recesses of society, let alone people's minds—those who have gone through this and experienced it. I did catch the BBC Two programme last week, and I would encourage people to watch it—Extreme Wives with Kate Humble. It won't make for good watching—anything but—but it will allow people some level of understanding, if they haven't got it, about what it is that we're talking about.

The procedure is, indeed, cruel. It's as cruel as it sounds, and, in my opinion, and that of others I have spoken to, it is surrounded by the misogynistic culture and twisted religious justification for it. Those are not my words—those are the words of women from Africa whom I've met as the Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians representative, who were living with this being done to them.

There are a few things worth mentioning. The long-term implications cannot be overstated. Women who have been subjected to FGM are very often, as a result, left incontinent. The result of being left incontinent is that they are also left alone—their husbands leave them because they regard them as unclean. They are left in poverty—abject poverty—to bring up their children on their own. So, not only are they mutilated, and it is mutilation, but they are left destitute as a consequence. The other issue that hasn't been talked about, of course, and it is fairly obvious, is that this is a crime in this country, and there hasn't been a single prosecution. I think not to mention it is to almost do a disservice, so I will mention those things.

It is the case, of course, that culture very often follows people. We do have a fairly large diaspora here, and that is why it particularly affects some communities more than others. We do know that, according to City, University of London research commissioned by the Home Office, approximately 137,000 women and girls in England and Wales are now living with the consequences, as I've described, and around 60,000 girls up to the age of 14 years were born to women who have undergone FGM. Those are pretty shocking figures, and they have to beg the question, and this is where BAWSO comes in: are those, then, going to be replicated, since it is the women who actually carry out FGM on their daughters?

Another thing worth mentioning from that programme is that the people who carry out the cutting get paid for every single person whom they cut. It is worth remembering that, because the poor communities that believe that this is the right thing are actually gathering funds together to send their girls back to them with the most horrific injuries. I think that if anybody ever meets anybody—I've met several people who have gone through this—you'll get a level of understanding about the trauma that never, ever leaves an individual when it is their mother who has sent them to be cut, when you hear about the party that they were expecting and the horror that they experience.

So, I suppose for us here as an Assembly, what we absolutely have to do is make sure that we carry on supporting organisations like BAWSO, who will, in turn, support the women and the children. When you hear of a two-year-old dying as a consequence, I think it brings reality home into this Chamber.  

Thank you. Can I now call the leader of the house, Julie James? 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to start my contribution to today's debate with a very brief tribute to my colleague and friend the late Carl Sargeant. We all know that Carl was as committed to tackling female genital mutilation as he was to the issue of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence as a whole. As Julie Morgan has already said, he saw FGM as a very clear example of child abuse as well as an issue of power and control over women and girls. He was passionate about getting people talking about this issue and bringing it out of the shadows, as well as trying to reduce the prevalence of the practice.

He put in place the groups and forums for discussion and decision making in Wales we needed to take FGM seriously and take action in partnership. He established a national strategic leadership group for FGM long before others around the UK had such structures. This allowed projects and initiatives to come forward, like the NSPCC/BAWSO project Voices over Silence, working with young women to make their voices heard on FGM. This project received a UK national midwifery award and is now being used to train professionals across Wales, as well as being taught in schools through the Spectrum programme. 

Carl was also very keen to ensure that FGM be a key strand in what eventually became the Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. He was adamant that this had to be the case if the legislation was to be reflective of all communities in Wales, and he did this in the full knowledge that some people did not want to hear about it. He never shied away from difficult subjects but tackled them head on in his own inimitable way, with gentleness, warmth and humour. Carl laid all the foundations for the work I'm about to outline on FGM, and it is all very much part of his lasting legacy. 

I also would like to thank Julie Morgan and all of the Assembly Members who brought forward this debate, and I very much welcome the opportunity to set out the Welsh Government's commitment to ending the appalling practice of female genital mutilation. The End FGM European network says that female genital mutilation, or FGM, denies women and girls the rights to physical and mental integrity, to freedom from violence, to the highest possible standard of health, to freedom from discrimination on the basis of gender and to freedom from torture, cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment. I think we all very strongly echo that statement. 

FGM is internationally recognised as a violation of women and girls' human rights, directed exclusively at women and girls because of their gender. In 2011, an estimated 170,000 girls and women were living with the consequences of FGM in the UK. It is estimated that there are around 140 victims of FGM every year in Wales. I'm watching the progress of an ongoing trial in Woolwich, only the second case of its kind to be brought in the UK under the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003. Criminal justice is not devolved, as you know, but Welsh Government is working to build a society that will not tolerate violence against women, domestic abuse or sexual violence, and this includes female genital mutilation. We will do this by educating our children and young people about healthy relationships and gender equality, as well as raising awareness across the whole population. This means that not only must professionals be trained to recognise FGM and those at risk, but also that we work with and in communities practising FGM in order to eradicate it altogether.

Support for those affected by FGM is critical. Our Live Fear Free website is a comprehensive resource for victims and families. It provides information on services available and where to go for help. The website supports the work of the helpline in providing advice and signposting. We wholly fund the helpline, which is run under contract by Welsh Women's Aid. People calling the helpline will be referred to appropriate local services, and we continue to fund local authorities and third sector organisations to provide advice and support services to victims and survivors. 

And, of course, a large part of our work is focused on prevention. This takes two main forms: awareness raising amongst the public and education of our children and young people. Eradicating FGM, as a number of Members have highlighted, must be set firmly within the context of ending violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. Continued publicity campaigns are key in raising awareness, challenging stereotypes and challenging and changing unacceptable attitudes and behaviours.

Despite significant work in Wales with the Welsh Government and its partners over the last few years, we know that many people are still at risk of or experiencing violence and abuse. As part of our long-term approach to raising awareness and changing attitudes, we are developing our national communications framework. This aims to ensure clear, joined-up and consistent messaging across Wales. We continue to work closely with local authorities, health boards and other partners, as well as the Home Office and criminal justice agencies in Wales. Through collaboration across both devolved and non-devolved areas, we can work to achieve our shared goals.

As part of helping us to prevent violence against women in the future, we have to focus on informing children to make sure they understand that FGM is a crime and a violation of human rights. As many Members have said, in September this year, the Cabinet Secretary for Education published the Government's new action plan, 'Education in Wales: Our national mission'. The action plan sets out how the school system will move forward over the period 2017-21, securing implementation of the new curriculum with a focus on leadership, professional learning, excellence and equity within a self-improving system.

The draft new curriculum will be made available to schools and settings in April 2019 for feedback and the final new curriculum will be made available by January 2020. The new curriculum will be introduced initially to all primary schools and year 7 in secondary schools in September 2022 and will subsequently roll out year on year in secondary schools from this point. The reason I highlight this is because we know that education services and schools in particular are well placed to spot the signs of abuse, and a number of Members have pointed this out. They know their children better than all the other services and are well placed to identify the warning signs and intervene at an early stage. Given their pivotal role, we will write to schools annually, reminding them of the risk posed to girls during the summer holidays and ensuring they know how to access help and support.

We will also continue to fund Hafan Cymru's Spectrum project, which works in primary and secondary schools across Wales. The programme teaches children about healthy relationships, abuse and its consequences and where to seek help. We also fund Welsh Women's Aid's Children Matter project in support of the prevention element of the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence Act. This project supports local services across Wales to challenge gender inequality experienced by children and young people and to improve safety.

We're clear in our aim to improve prevention, protection and support for victims and survivors, as set out in the Act and in our national strategy, which was published last year. The strategy articulates our commitment to tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence in Wales. It sets out the objectives that, when achieved, will help us fulfil the purposes of the Act. 

In developing the national training framework on violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, we have set out our requirements for training on these subjects across the public service and specialist third sector. The framework also includes a specialist subject syllabus, which will ensure that any training accessed locally by any profession meets the learning outcomes and can be properly assessed and is consistent with other training delivered across Wales.

'Understanding FGM' is one of the training courses within the specialist syllabus. The course covers current law and policy relating to FGM in Wales and the UK, including the Serious Crime Act 2015. Alongside this, we're developing 'ask and act', which will be rolled out across the public sector and help professionals recognise the signs of abuse and violence, and 1,200 employees of the Abertawe Bro Morgannwg health board and south-east Wales local authorities have been trained to 'ask and act'. There are 98 'ask and act' champions in south-east Wales and this pilot will provide a clear model of 'ask and act', which will be rolled out further in the rest of 2017.

For health professionals, there is the FGM care pathway for Wales, which promotes referral of any woman affected by FGM into primary care mental health services or third sector provision. FGM safeguarding leads have been appointed in all health boards in Wales. A data-collection process has been developed; monthly data on women and girls identified with FGM is being collated by Public Health Wales from maternity services. Any female infants born to women who've undergone FGM are being referred as a matter of course to social services for a protective intervention. To date, around 10 women per quarter have been identified with FGM and we are looking into the routine publication of information on FGM, which is currently collected.

Later this month, we'll be marking the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women. This day is an important reminder that there is still much to do in ending violence against women and girls and ensuring gender equality. I want to say that I will also be taking a huge interest myself in this area and will be very much welcoming a lot of liaison with everyone in this Assembly who has any idea of any other things that we can do. I certainly will be taking forward the cross-government approach that has been highly recommended. We also need to make sure, as Julie Morgan highlighted, that whilst we condemn the crime, the act and the violence, we do not condemn the communities that have this ingrained within them and that we do much to help them come to terms with where they are and develop as well.

We remain highly motivated and fully committed to continuing to prevent violence and abuse and to protect and support those who have been affected by these dreadful practices. Diolch.

Thank you very much. I call on Dai Lloyd to reply to the debate—Dai.

Thank you very much, DPO. Yes, 'female genital mutilation' are not words we often talk about here in this Chamber, but it's well overdue that we should be shining a light on this hugely distressing issue. Can I thank first of all, Julie Morgan, and pay tribute to her, in fact, for her hard work over many years, and also to Carl Sargeant, but more of Carl in a minute? 

The World Health Organization calls FGM, female genital mutilation, barbaric. Other words used are 'cruel' and, as we've heard, 'mutilating'. There's absolutely no health benefit whatsoever for girls and women, yet it is still carried out in many parts of the world today. As we've heard from some very powerful presentations this afternoon, procedures can cause severe bleeding, recurrent lifelong urinary problems, multiple infections, complications in childbirth—that's where I first saw my first case of FGM many years ago when I was doing obstetrics—and increased risk of newborn deaths as a result. It's no exaggeration to say that female genital mutilation is a complete violation of the human rights of girls and women. It needs restating, as has been stated, that it is actually illegal in this country and has been illegal for the past 32 years. It is abuse, and it's an extreme form of discrimination against women. All that has been said this afternoon and I'm just saying it to emphasise the gravity of the situation so that no-one be left in any doubt what this Chamber feels about this horrific, cruel, mutilating procedure.

We started this afternoon with Julie Morgan—a very powerful presentation, and obviously the visual presentation encapsulated the whole issue far better, actually, than many words can. But we need the words as well and we need the awareness-raising that such an individual Member's debate, such as this one, provides. We have had a comprehensive analysis of this whole monstrous issue. And, yes, we are left with the importance of awareness-raising among the involved communities and the importance of education in schools.

Very much the same theme was carried on by Jenny Rathbone and also by Jane Hutt, and I congratulate you both on your presentations, particularly as regards Jane and the awareness in schools and those warning signs, because there are still distressingly recent cases of FGM appearing in schools, although it remains hidden because, as we have heard, girls go on prolonged cutting holidays. It does highlight the need for a cross-governmental response, as both Jane and Jenny mentioned, and the importance of getting rid of this wall of silence in the involved communities. But we have to support and educate those communities where this procedure is still endemic.

I congratulate also Joyce Watson on her presentation this afternoon on the importance of speaking out about getting to grips with this wall of silence that is everywhere, regardless of the distress caused, I have to say, and, as Joyce was saying, the twisted misogynistic logic of still carrying out this procedure. And the World Health Organization reiterates a similar sort of language.

Turning finally to the leader of the house, Julie James, can I also congratulate Julie on her elevation and also on her powerful tribute to Carl Sargeant, who has done immense work in this field as regards violence against women and setting up and helping to set up many of the projects that were so expertly outlined by Julie James? Because this is about power and control over girls and women, and that is completely and utterly unacceptable. Support the motion. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time. 

Voting deferred until voting time.