The next item is the debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee report, 'Digital Infrastructure in Wales'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Russell George.

Motion NDM6558 Russell George

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the report of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee on its inquiry, 'Digital Infrastructure in Wales', which was laid in the Table Office on 20 September 2017.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion in my name. This report is in regard to digital infrastructure in Wales. Connectivity is no longer a 'nice to have' when it comes to living and working in Wales for many people, including some of the businesses we spoke to as part of our inquiry. It is now considered an essential service like water or electricity—even in some quite unlikely places. To launch this report, I visited Mead Farm in Caldicot, a food business that relies on digital infrastructure to track the location, health and well-being of its cows and to market its fresh breakfast products in the local area.

In recent years, more and more people are getting connected at increasingly high speeds, and this is good news, but a consequence of this improvement is that frustration and a sense of injustice grows in those left behind. Those who are connected at low speeds look enviously on at those able to access higher speeds, and those with nothing at all are left with the greatest frustrations. While the Welsh Government's Superfast Cymru scheme, delivered in partnership with BT, has connected high numbers of people—when complete, about 96 per cent of premises in Wales will be able to access it, we're told—there remain pockets where it will not reach, and the roll-out of mobile phone coverage is following in a similar pattern.

I received a letter last month from Mrs James in Glandwr, near Whitland, which eloquently put the issues into context, so I'll read part of her letter out:

'We have slow broadband, which means downloading or watching items such as BBC Three is practically impossible. On a personal level farming relies on online submission of forms more and more, and the lack of mobile signal while out working for hours in the fields leads to lost time in contacting colleagues and the health and safety aspect is very worrying with one fatality a week in agriculture at the moment. The school buses which travel along the valley find it worrying that if they have a breakdown they are unable to leave the bus with 70 pupils onboard to get help. Villagers have been trying to get smart meters installed but are unable to without the most basic signal.'

I receive similar complaints in my own consistency every week, and I'm sure other Members are not much different to myself. As a committee, we want to see everyone in Wales able to access the internet at fast speeds, whether for work or entertainment, but we also need to build a structure that is fit for the future. Our demand for bandwidth has massively grown, and is likely to continue to do so. Where, once, we needed enough to send some e-mails or to look at a website, now we routinely stream tv programmes and films to a range of devices, at home and at work. 

We have made a series of recommendations to help Wales develop a digital infrastructure that is as fast and reliable as that enjoyed elsewhere in the UK, but Wales's geography puts us in a difficult position. Rhodri Williams, director of Ofcom Wales, told the committee that Wales needs 67 masts per million of the population to broadcast terrestrial television. The number in England is 12. And despite having more masts, we still don’t have the same level of coverage. So, to get mobile coverage on a par with England, Wales will need a greater number of masts, and for that to happen, we'll have to make it easier for that to happen. Filling in the gaps so that everyone can receive a good service is the minimum requirement. More can be done to help people take up those services once available, and to take potentially controversial steps to ensure that the connectivity many of us take for granted, is available to all.

We also need to ensure that capacity is there. There are too many examples where streets have been 'enabled'—I say that in inverted commas—for superfast broadband, but individuals can’t access it because of lack of capacity of the cabinet or exchange. There's clearly no point in having the infrastructure in the ground if residents can't actually benefit from it.

Furthermore, as early as last week, Members will have been told that premises in their constituencies are still to be upgraded for fibre broadband by the end of 2017. However, the Welsh Government also say—and I quote here—that the Superfast Cymru contract with BT closes in December 2017, and the costs of addressing any premises that suffer delay beyond that date will not be met by the Welsh Government through this contract. The committee would be grateful for further clarity on this point, especially as the Superfast Cymru website has recently changed. Those that were previously listed as being in scope and due for an upgrade before the end of the year have now been told to check back after this date for the status of their premises.

Would the Member give way?

I would, yes.

I'm grateful to the Member. I also would like clarification on behalf of scores—if not hundreds—of my constituents by now who have been told, 'Everything will be done by the end of this year', and are still awaiting confirmation of that. Can he share with the Chamber whether the committee were able to ascertain the number of delayed contracts in that position, and whether it was likely or not that the whole contract would be delivered, in fact?

Well, certainly, we've had confirmation from BT that they believe that the contract will be delivered, according to the contract, and I will come on to address some of the communication issues that you've raised, actually, towards the end of my contribution.

I think what Simon Thomas has also said concerns many other Members as well, because the prospect of premises, of course, being left behind, or left in the lurch, increases substantially after the so-called drop-dead date at the end of 31 December, unless the Welsh Government, of course, intends to pick up the baton again as part of its successor scheme. I would be grateful, of course, for clarity from the Cabinet Secretary, and the Cabinet Secretary heard Simon Thomas's comments with regard to this as well.

I am pleased to see that the Government has accepted all 12 of the recommendations—three in principle. However, on some, agreement isn’t the same as action, of course. The Government’s mobile action plan was plucked from the ether just prior to the Minister’s appearance to give evidence to this inquiry, and that has to be widely welcomed, I should say. But progress since then, I have to say, has been slow, and Wales has already been playing catch-up with Scotland. The action plan needs a bit more action, I would say. It needs to move at a faster upload speed.

The Superfast Cymru scheme is rapidly drawing to a close next month. In many ways, it's fair to say, I think that the scheme has been successful, bringing high–speed internet to many areas that might not have otherwise had it sooner. This is where I come to Simon Thomas's point. We are not the first inquiry to highlight the communication problems that have dogged the programme. Future schemes will need to address this, and we think that should be built into future contracts. I'm pleased to see that the Minister looks like she's nodding to that.

One final thing: the committee has received some evidence from people concerned about electrohypersensitivity, where people suffer from a reaction to wi-fi or mobile phone signals. While this was outside our terms of reference, I have received some further correspondence on this, and since we're debating this today, I would ask the Minister if any consideration has been given to this issue. So, I do look forward to the debate this afternoon, and I look forward to hearing comments from other Members.

I do think that, as we look at this policy area—it does make you feel particularly depressed, because this was the technology that had the potential for us to undo the disbenefits of being geographically peripheral, or being located in a rural location. It was this technology that was supposed to provide the solution for rural business, but, because of the lack of progress that’s taken place, we are still in a disadvantaged situation compared to the main centres of urban population in England, and so on and so forth. Therefore, we must have better leadership from the Welsh Government. The system that we have, or the policy approach that we have, clearly isn’t delivering. So, never think that—. Of course, the technology is moving forward constantly, and we will soon be talking about terabits. If the Welsh Government truly wants Wales to be a test bed for driverless car technologies, for example, then we must move further ahead. So, it’s not through having an agreement on a contract with BT—that’s not the best way of doing that, I would suggest.

If we look at the figures, we heard the Cabinet Secretary saying that Wales is forging ahead. What planet is he on? We can’t have a reasonable policy discussion if we don’t accept the reality of the situation. As the House of Commons Library has demonstrated, seven out of 10 of the council wards that have the slowest connections in Britain are in Wales, six of them in the Mid and West Wales region, and one of them, Llanfihangel Aberbythych, in my constituency. I saw that an FOI request was published last week by the Welsh Government—that is, the information was published by the Welsh Government—that demonstrates where we are in terms of the areas that have been connected under superfast. Ceredigion is only 68.9 per cent—these are your own figures, which were published last week. We know that the average across the UK is around 93 or 94 per cent—that’s for England—and it’s set to be 95 per cent by the end of this year and 98 per cent, according to the UK Government, by the end of this decade. But 68 per cent in Ceredigion—what impact does the Welsh Government think that has on the viability of the economy in those areas? We must look at an alternative model.

It’s interesting to see the alternative models that have succeeded, for example, in the United States, where hundreds of cities own their own telecommunications companies. Because many of them, in areas such as Colorado and Kentucky, facing the same problems as our rural areas, have decided, 'Enough is enough. We are not going to rely on major, monopolistic companies. We’re going to take the reins ourselves.' Some of them partner with smaller, local or regional companies. Some of them own their own companies, very similar to the old Kingston Communications in Hull, of course, which was very successful, and very similar to what the Basque Government did back in the 1990s, having faced the same difficulties. Again, the Basque Country Government decided, 'Well, rather than just handing out this money to a large, private sector monopoly, why don’t we invest our funds into our own company?’ Of course, Euskaltel has proved that that investment was a wise move, and it’s paid off, because they have been able to make progress. And one of the committee's recommendations, of course, is that the Welsh Government should look at these alternative models at all levels.

There was a suggestion in the Western Mail last month that there was an opportunity in terms of this terabit infrastructure to generate investment that would mean that Wales, for once, would be in the vanguard.

As a member of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee I’d like to place on record how important I thought this report actually was. My thanks to all those who came to give evidence to our inquiry.

Since being elected, one of the thorniest issues I’ve had to deal with in my postbag relates to internet provision to domestic properties. One such example relates to the village of Penderyn in my constituency, and this was a subject before the Petitions Committee just last year. Since then I’ve come across all too frequent examples of seemingly isolated properties falling through gaps in provision, but perhaps what shocked me most of all was the case of the new Coed Dyffryn estate in Cwmbach. The estate was built around four years ago by Persimmon, and ever since residents were caught in a notspot no-man’s land. Residents moving into their new properties found that they had a severely inadequate service, making it almost impossible to work, study or even just shop. One constituent told me how he would have to drive to a local supermarket just to use their Wi-Fi to run his business, and no-one wanted to help. Persimmon blamed BT. BT says it was Persimmon’s fault. The UK Government actually advised residents to crowdfund a solution.

I’m happy to say that my intervention seems to have led to a resolution. Openreach have agreed to invest the capital needed to complete the work to connect the empty cabinet frustratingly close to the new houses. Coed Dyffryn residents should be able to finally benefit from superfast speeds before the end of the year. I would like to place on record my thanks to the then Minister for Skills and Science for her support in closing this case, and put on record how glad I am to see her retain responsibility for digital infrastructure. Her proactive comments in committee last week around enabling AMs to get it right for their constituents are to be welcomed, but what made this example particularly frustrating is that this was not a housing estate in the middle of the wilds. Rather, it was an urbanised area situated between Aberdare and Mountain Ash.

It was against this casework backdrop that I approached the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee inquiry into digital infrastructure in Wales. As the Chair reminded us, despite the peculiar geographic and demographic challenges in Wales, the Welsh Government has succeeded in ensuring that 24 out of every 25 Welsh properties have access to Superfast Cymru. This is a phenomenal achievement, but we cannot forget that twenty-fifth property. The frustration experienced by my constituents was palpable, and this is a common phenomenon among those who lose out.

We need to see bold solutions to fill in the gaps, and I think recommendation 2 is really important from this perspective. This is around providing finance to small operators or even promoting public models of ownership. I found the evidence from the Ger-y-Gors community forum to be particularly inspiring, and an example of when the right community with the right skills could come together to deliver the right solution. I think there are a lot of lessons for us to take from this. It’s good that the Welsh Government has accepted this recommendation in principle, and I look forward to their exploration of funding and ownership models in the context of the successor to Superfast Cymru.

It’s a little over six years since the United Nations declared access to the internet to be a fundamental human right. As the UN notes, in its ability to promote self-expression, the internet is key to a range of human rights and to the progress of society as a whole. Similarly, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has made the case for the role of digital technologies in tackling poverty. Again, this refers to the ways it can empower the most disadvantaged in society, as well as offering practical solutions out of poverty. Let us not forget the consequences of people needing to apply for universal credit online too. That’s why I think the committee’s recommendation 4 is fundamentally important. Improving digital infrastructure can and must run alongside community empowerment. Part of the frustration felt by the Coed Dyffryn residents was that they believed they were being ignored. We must therefore ensure the hardest-to-reach communities and individuals are now engaged in the process to ensure that potential solutions can be tailored to their needs. But communities must also be at the heart of our approach to issues like planning and physical infrastructure. Sharing masts or siting them in the best place for local residents can provide peace of mind to people in areas like Bryntirion, also in the Cynon Valley. I hope that these needs can be considered as future models for delivery are developed.

Can I say how proud I am to have taken part in the production of this report and to also make note of the very adequate way in which the Chair has taken us through the procedures needed? The EIS committee's report on digital infrastructure throws up a number of questions, but first I would like to acknowledge the excellent progress that the Welsh Government has made with the massive expansion of the connectivity levels in Wales with its superfast broadband project. But the former Cabinet Secretary, in evidence to the economy and infrastructure—I say 'former'; I'm afraid I see you're still sitting with us and you're still going to answer the questions there, Minister.

But the Cabinet Secretary, in evidence to the economy and infrastructure committee, stated that there was a very real possibility that BT may miss its December deadline for the full implementation of its remit, and there seemed to be some confusion as to how to proceed with the implementation of the contract to eliminate the residual notspots. It would help if we could have absolute clarity as to how and when and what form this procurement process will take.

We also heard that the take-up of high-speed broadband, when it became available, has not been as expected. It has been concluded that this could be put down to a lack of information from BT and, to a certain extent, the Welsh Government, as to the advantages superfast can bring to the business sector. Again, there seems to have been a great deal of confusion as to exactly when and where superfast broadband had been made available. This was particularly frustrating for the business sector. It would be beneficial to know if this has now been adequately addressed and if there is evidence available to show that take-up figures have improved over recent months.

We do note and acknowledge that the Welsh Government has set up an exploitation fund, levered from a number of sources, which is designed to help business engage with this new technology and it will be interesting to see if this fund will achieve its aims. It is said that, at the end of the Superfast Cymru contract with BT, there is estimated to be around 4 per cent of the country without superfast broadband. We acknowledge that filling this gap will be far more expensive per connection than under the last contract, but we urge the Welsh Government to press on with its excellent progress made so far and make superfast broadband universal throughout Wales, and, in so doing, make Wales one of the world leaders in online access.

Turning to mobile phone coverage, again we acknowledge the progress made so far, but a number of obstacles have been identified by mobile suppliers, citing such things as planning delays, access to land, difficulty with electricity supply, and arrangements with necessary traffic disruptions. We urge the Welsh Government to use all its powers to alleviate these obstacles so that even rural Wales will be free of the scourge of notspots—a situation that has been cited as being one of the main factors inhibiting business growth in our rural communities.

Again, we wish to acknowledge the excellent progress made in this area by the Welsh Government and offer our support in its further implementation.

I’m afraid that I can’t share the contentment that some have with the progress made under this contract, or in general with broadband in Wales. Vikki Howells mentioned that only one out of every 25 homes has no access to broadband, but it appears to me, through the letters that I have, that whole villages are full of these one-in-25 homes in the area that I represent. By now, letters regarding access to broadband—in my postbag and in e-mail—have surpassed health. I’ve got more letters about broadband than health, and I’ve never seen that as an Assembly Member or as a Member of Parliament. It’s clear that access to broadband has speeded up as the current contract comes to an end at the end of the year, but a number have complained that they haven’t seen the access that they’d been expecting. There was a website showing people when their village was going to have access and when their house was going to be part of it. The publicity money was taken out of that website, so now, people don’t know when that is going to happen. By now, I’m afraid we’re in a situation where I feel that, despite the efforts of the Welsh Government, I’m not sure that we’ve had the service that we expected to have after spending over £150 million on BT and Openreach. I don’t think they’ve performed fully according to their contract, and I will speak in a while about what we should do about that.

For the areas that I represent, adequate access to broadband is now completely essential. You’re talking in general about 10 Mbps, as Adam Price mentioned. By now, the expectations of people about how they can deal with the local economy has gone beyond that. We don’t want to see people having to move from rural areas, to move from west Wales, in order to get nearer to the market. When you have an electronic market, it should be able to be used anywhere in Wales.

Adam mentioned the fact that a study by the library of the House of Commons had found that seven out of 10 wards that had the slowest broadband were in Wales, and that six of them were in Mid and West Wales. But it’s worse than that, because, when I looked at the figures, I was surprised to see the figures that the House of Commons library had. They said that these figures were bad. For example, Trelech in Carmarthen west has 3.8 Mbps, Yscir has 4.2 Mbps, and Llanfihangel Aberbythych has 4.2 Mbps.

Over the summer, I have conducted my own survey, in Meirion-Dwyfor, in Ceredigion, and in Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire, about what is the speed that people are actually receiving in their homes. They are as low as 0.2 Mbps; they would be really pleased to have 4.1 Mbps or 4.2 Mbps. I don’t know where these figures come from; perhaps from the house next door to the cabinet or something. The reality of what you get 100 yards, or more than 100 yards, down the copper line from the Cabinet in rural Wales is completely different from these figures, and there is a desperate need to look at that.

Now, I'm delighted to see that the Minister has retained her responsibility for this. Perhaps there's a bit of copper wire that's keeping her, around her ankles or something, which refuses to let her go. She will know, because she's signed many a letter to me, just how much correspondence we've had over the last few months, as we come to the end of this period. I could write her letters for her now. I mean no disrespect to her, but they contain the same paragraphs, just slightly ordered in different ways, just to break the boredom: 'We're liaising with BT'; 'There's promises that it will be completed by the end of December 2017'; 'The superfast company contract ends in December 2017, and we're not going to pay any more after that.' And then, this classic line: 'We make it clear that failure to do so will see severe financial penalties.' I'd like to understand, when the Minister replies—the Cabinet Secretary, sorry—just what the nature of those penalties are. Because I don't think my constituents are interested in penalties—they just want broadband. They want this contract delivered to them, and delivered to what has been promised.

And just to give an example, I'm afraid, because this goes a bit further than just BT and some of the, I think, rather patronising attitude that some people have towards businesses in rural areas—some idea that you should put up with second-class service, simply because you've chosen to remain in your area—the letter I quoted a little bit from there was one of the most recent I've had with the Minister, which was with regards to the sawmills in Cenarth, which was mentioned by Leanne Wood in questions to Ken Skates earlier. Again, the promise has been to deliver superfast broadband to those sawmills by the end of December. Now, the sawmills have made several million pounds of investment in equipment that is run internationally—in Belgium; that's where the headquarters of this equipment is. If something goes wrong with the equipment, they go down the line to Belgium for it to get sorted out. We could have an argument about whether that's good or bad, but that's what sawmills do; that's what sawmills all over the western world do. And I don't want that sawmill moved from the Teifi valley closer to Belgium, or closer to an internet connection. It's employing 20 to 30 people in the Teifi valley—Welsh speakers as well. It's an indigenous Welsh-owned family business.

The letter from the Minister says that she will do everything she can to deliver this. But I've got a copy of an e-mail from a Welsh Government official, and I'm afraid that reads very differently. The e-mail says, 'I'm not saying the broadband is good enough, but, just maybe, the sawmill management should have checked that before spending millions.' That's the attitude that pervades broadband connection in rural Wales, and we have to overcome that attitude and give serious attention to broadband provision and entitlement. 

When I write my Hollywood screenplay blockbuster, I will be using the Ger-y-Gors story as an example. We took evidence on 19 January from Duncan and Ray Taylor, and they told us the story, with no telecommunications experience whatsoever, of how they established a mast that delivered broadband. I've been looking on their website, and what they did was negotiated and accessed a number of grants made available to them through the Welsh Government and the European agricultural fund, secured the generosity of community members in terms of use and access to their land, gained planning permission, constructed 600m of access road, commissioned the laying of a 1.5-mile power line to the site, and constructed a 25m telecommunications mast to full mobile operator specifications. And, since August 2014, they have been broadcasting wireless broadband from the mast situated near the quarry at Ystrad Meurig to anyone wishing to subscribe to the service. What an inspiring story. They had trouble as well getting hold of a mast, because they were seen as competition to the bigger companies, which is utterly absurd, and I think that was recognised as absurd by those who gave evidence from those companies to our committee. 

They shouldn't be the norm, but communities should be able to do this where they can, which is why recommendation 2, that the Welsh Government should consider establishing a repayable grant or equity scheme to enable small operators to fill in the gaps in the network, is such an important recommendation, and why it's good that it's been accepted in principle. I'd also say: I don't know whether Adam Price has been speaking as the economy spokesperson or as a member of the committee, because he does wear these two hats; he's the living embodiment of the need for more Assembly Members, because sometimes he doesn't know which mode he's in. I think his speech was a bit of both, actually; it was a bit of constructive proposals and a bit of party political criticism, none the worse for that.

But I would say that the Cabinet Secretary and leader of the house has been heroic in the way she's pursued these issues. She hasn't given up. She has come to my constituency to meet with businesses that have struggled with these issues. She's introduced me to civil servants who have listened, and I have had assurances, particularly with regard to the Castle Reach and Kingsmead estates in Caerphilly, that, by the drop-dead date, these issues should be resolved, and I have every reason to believe BT. At this time point in time, though, if we are let down, then there will be consequences. There have to be consequences, and I'd like the Minister to emphasise that there will be consequences. I'm going to give them until February, actually, after the drop-dead date, to come in and get the broadband operators to come and provide the services. But BT have given those assurances that Openreach will have these areas connected, and I hope that that will happen. 

The Minister also visited businesses located at Penallta industrial estate, for example, and they haven't been able to get broadband access. They're relying on Airband to deliver services, but even so, that service hasn't been excellent either. We know that if 'Our Valleys, Our Future' is going to work, then connecting these areas, these final stages, must be solved, otherwise we will end up with areas that are suffering and will not achieve the ambitions of the 'Our Valleys, Our Future' aspirations. 

So, notwithstanding the Ger-y-Gors project, which was inspirational, we also need this Government lead, which the Cabinet Secretary has been providing. There are residents in my constituency who don't live in Ystrad Meurig; they live just half an hour from the M4 in the south end of Caerphilly. They must have twenty-first century broadband access. I commend this report to the Assembly because it does contain an action plan for achieving that, and I think the thing now to do is to get on and accept those recommendations. 

I call on the leader of the house, Julie James. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to start by very much thanking the Chair and members of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee for their report and all of their hard work in this area. I want to start by acknowledging some of the things that Members have said in the Chamber. I have been to most bits of Wales. I don't believe I've actually visited the constituencies of some Members who contributed, but I make the offer again: I'm more than happy to do so.  

I've attended a number of large and small meetings across Wales. I'm due to go up to north Wales very shortly to have another couple up there. The reason that we've been doing that is: first of all, we want people to understand what the Superfast Cymru scheme is and why it's structured in the way that it is, which I will touch on again in a moment, but also, more importantly, to understand what we can do with the successor scheme to make sure that all the communities are connected.

We're very pleased to acknowledge that there will be a number of solutions that we need to look at for the successor project. The reason that the recommendation is accepted in principle is only because we wanted to look at a wide range of solutions that might be available, including things like community interest companies and social enterprises, but also just things like combining grants in a particular way, looking at community Wi-Fi schemes. There are several examples of these around Wales already.

One of the things we're also going to look at is how we can use publicly installed broadband structures to put community Wi-Fi in place, for example. So, the reason that they're in principle is only so that we can explore them in the widest of possibilities.

Would you give way on that?

Yes, certainly.

I don't want to detain us too much on the details of what might be the successor scheme, but is she suggesting that there could be alternatives to Openreach and BT? And secondly, is she also looking at this in a technology-free sort of way, if you like? Because we've just had an announcement, for example, in the budget today of 5G investment, and in some parts I think we could be thinking beyond actual wires and cables to houses. 

Yes, absolutely—I accept all of those points. I'll come on to some of the complications of mobile in a minute, but since this scheme started, one of the problems, of course, is that technology has moved very significantly, and actually, although mobile isn't devolved to Wales, as I keep saying, actually there's almost no difference between internet access and mobile. So, broadband, as we call it, is fibre broadband, but actually 5G access is just as good if you can get it there. That's one of the continuing conversations with the UK Government about the edges of the devolution settlement, which makes some of these things difficult as the technology moves, which I will come on to.

In terms of the delivery, the Superfast Cymru project was let after an open market review to comply with state aid rules. That open market review told us where the various telecommunications companies at that time intended to have commercial roll-out. We are not allowed to go in the intervention area anywhere where there's commercial roll-out. So, largely, this project is entirely rural. So, my own constituency in Swansea has no superfast at all because, obviously, there's commercial roll-out intended. But I can assure Members that that hasn't meant that everybody has got superfast and I can't actually do anything about it because it's not in the intervention area. One of the things that Vikki Howells highlighted is the difficulty of new estates built after the open market review. Members will remember that we conducted a further open market review, which brought another 42,000 premises in, as telecommunications companies decided to change where they were going to go with the commercial roll-out.

Also, in order to get to the largest number of premises across Wales, it has no geographical bias whatsoever. It's a conversation that I've had with a large number of you, including the Llywydd, on a number of occasions, because what we try to do is get to the largest number of premises in Wales with the money available. So, we have not told Openreach and BT where to go; they just go where they can get the biggest number of premises connected. We are technology-neutral. It's entirely a matter for them where they go. So, they decide whether it's fibre to the cabinet that will connect the most number of properties, or fibre to the premises. We do have pockets of villages where the whole village is left out, because actually that's what you'd expect. It's been said to me, for example, that some people feel that only a few properties have been connected to tick some sort of box. I can assure you that that's not the case. They are paid for premises passed. If they can connect a whole village, they obviously get the whole village as premises passed. There's no benefit to them in connecting some part of a network.

Where fibre to the cabinet is used, there is frustration, because if you're about a kilometre away, that's about the cut-off for superfast speed—about 30 Mbps—and there's a shadow that goes out to 24 Mbps for some people. BT are only paid for premises passed that reach the thresholds. They are allowed to have some properties in the shadow area, but most of the properties have to come over 30 Mbps and actually almost all the premises come in at around 80 Mbps to 100 Mbps once they're connected.

We have been pushing them very hard over the last two years. I have extremely regular, very fractious meetings with them about where they are and whether they've started the build. I completely accept the comms point that the committee has made and that a large number of Members have made to me. BT were extremely optimistic in announcing where they were going to get to and have been less good at giving people good information about why that's not going to happen, and we've had a lot of conversations with them about not being optimistic, as they see it, and I totally acknowledge that we need to do better in comms in terms of the Superfast Cymru 2 successor project.

They are still telling us that they will make it; they are connecting in a phenomenal number of premises per week at the moment—more than they've ever done previously in the contract due to the number of flames we're holding their feet to. They tell us they'll make it. If they don't, there are financial penalties, which I won't reveal here for all sorts of commercial reasons but which will, obviously, be eventually auditable, and all of the money will go back into Superfast 2. We absolutely concur that we don't want money: we want connection—absolutely. So, what we're trying to do is get them to get the network out as far as it will go with this project so that when we come to Superfast 2 we have the best possible start. We've just done an open-market review on consultation in terms of Superfast 2 and we're just analysing them.

Officials intend to start that procurement exercise shortly, with the view to the new project starting as close to the beginning of next year as we can manage it because we want to keep the roll-out going. However, I will invite any Member who has a whole community, or any problem at all in their area, to invite me to come down and talk to them. We also have a business exploitation team that's extremely happy to come and talk to either individuals or whole groups of people about what the best solution for them is, and we are going to structure the procurement so that we can handle those sorts of things. Also, the procurement, though, will want to get to the largest number of people as possible with the amount of money we have, so we've got to balance those two things off, and I intend to do that.

We will continue our two voucher schemes. I wish that Simon Thomas would tell me who the official is who sent that e-mail because I wish to put on record that I do not concur with its sentiments in any way whatsoever. My own—[Interruption.] Well, I hope you will send it to me. [Interruption.] Certainly.

Thanks for giving way. I've been privy to your tour around Wales—you've visited an area in my constituency and I know you've been very helpful with constituents of Trelleck Grange. Would you accept that part of their frustration was that the neighbouring village of Tintern was totally well connected, so even though they were in a rural area, actually, they were neighbouring an area that was very well connected, and yet BT seemed to drop down an iron curtain at a certain point just a 100 yd down the road, which, if that hadn't happened, then they would have been connected a long time ago, and that that needs to be dealt with in the future of this roll-out?

I accept that that is a very frustrating thing to have happen and there's some frustrations around the way that BT has restructured its copper network, and we had a spirited conversation about what the new wiring on the pole was, as I recollect, when I visited you. I've become an expert in what wires on poles are and how they're connected recently, which is a new skill that I hear that you didn't have. We accept those frustrations, but, as I say, the contract doesn't allow us to tell BT where to go, it only tells us how many premises they'll connect, and the reason for that was that was the cheapest way to connect the highest number of premises, though I completely accept the frustrations in communication that that has given rise to. That won't be the way we do the second phase because we will want to target communities that have particular issues. We discussed that in your constituency and I'm very happy to discuss it in others.

I will say this, though, in terms of the saw mill, for example: one of the frustrations we have is that sometimes businesses wait for superfast to get to them and then discover that, actually, 100 Mbps isn't enough, and that if they are communicating with head offices elsewhere in the world that they should upgrade to an ultrafast connection as fast as possible. We have a business exploitation team: very helpful individuals who can come and talk to the business about whether that might be the best way forward, and I would certainly recommend that, and I can sort that out if Simon Thomas wants to send me the detail. I'd be very grateful to have the other detail as well on that point, however.

Turning to mobile, you will know that we had the mobile roundtable and followed by the mobile action plan, my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for planning—amongst other things—is about to publish the research into planning. Russell George highlighted the number of masts necessary to get the signal across Wales. There is a balance to be drawn between covering our national parks with masts and getting all of these signals done and we are talking as well to the Home Office about using their emergency network to allow others to hang equipment onto that network, because I personally think it's a terrible shame to cover the beautiful landscape of Wales with lots and lots of masts in order to have different companies have different infrastructures when, actually, they could share, and we would all get a much better service. However, that's an ongoing discussion and, as I say, it's not actually devolved to Wales.

What I would like to finish by saying, though, Llywydd, is this: we remain absolutely committed to getting broadband connection to every property in Wales. Without this last superfast intervention, many properties in rural Wales would never have had any hope whatsoever of receiving broadband. I share the frustration of those left behind but we are determined to cover them off in the second programme, and in an as innovative and imaginative a way as we possibly can. Diolch. 

I call on Russell George to reply to the debate. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm grateful to the Members who took part in this debate this afternoon. If I can perhaps comment on each one. Now, Adam Price rightly pointed out the disparity of connectivity in rural Wales in particular, and also mentioned Ceredigion, which is absolutely lagging behind other parts of Wales and the UK in comparison. And Adam mentioned alternative solutions and, of course, those were heard by the Minister, and I would hope that those can be considered as part of a successor scheme. 

Vikki Howells commented on examples of poor communication. These examples are very familiar to me, I have to say. And David Rowlands, thank you for your kind words towards me, and David, of course, pointed out the issues about trying to resolve issues that the mobile operators had raised with us. I think, as a committee, I was certainly keen to address the mobile phone operators' asks, if only to stop them making excuses when they come back in the future. You know, we can say, 'We've delivered your asks; now why are there continuing to be issues?'  

Simon, of course, also talked about his own survey, which reminds me I did take my own survey in my own constituency in regard to speed, and I totally agree with Simon, in that people don't want, and they're not interested in hearing about BT being fined. All they want is connectivity. That's what's important to them. 

I'm so pleased that Hefin David mentioned Duncan and Ray Taylor who came to committee and gave evidence to us. I think it's probably the longest answer allowed in a committee session—I think I asked a question and 15 minutes later Mr Taylor was still talking. 

And everybody was still listening. 

And everybody was still listening and we didn't want to stop him. Nobody was interested in stopping Mr Taylor because he was an inspiration, and his story was fantastic. He was an inspiration, and I think, as a committee, we just felt every community needs a Mr Taylor. [Interruption.] Did you hear Mr Taylor? [Laughter.]

I have to say that I certainly air my frustrations to the Cabinet Secretary on the roll-out on a regular basis, and I often think that I write more e-mails to the Cabinet Secretary than anybody else, but I've got the feeling this afternoon that there are many other Members in that boat as well. But I have to say I am pleased that Julie James has retained responsibility in this area, because I have to say she has a great knowledge in this area and, clearly, the First Minister had this in mind when he had his Cabinet reshuffle; he obviously didn't want to take that responsibility from her—he couldn't find anybody else who was willing to take it on, perhaps. [Laughter.] But I do feel that the Cabinet Secretary has also been very open with us. She often says publicly—she airs her own frustrations about BT, and also I know that the Cabinet Secretary's been very busy touring Wales, up and down, meeting communities. I said to the Cabinet Secretary, 'How many can I get? What's the limit?', and in fairness, she said, 'However many you want. That's fine—get them all around the table.' So, I made sure I got the biggest possible table I could find. I think I managed to get 60 people around the table, but credit to the Cabinet Secretary who was willing to face a room of angry people and face them out.    

But, yes, communication I think has been absolutely diabolical, I have to say. It's terrible. I know at times I've been here myself standing in this position with two letters from the then Minister to the same constituent—one saying one thing and the other, a month later, saying something else. It's really frustrating when all people want to know is when they're going to get connected. And if they aren't going to get connected, they want to know they're not going to get a connection so they can look at other solutions. But I'm grateful at least that the Cabinet Secretary has accepted that issue. 

I thank Members who took part in this debate today and Members who also took part in our deliberations in our committee, some of whom have now left the committee after being elevated to Government—thank you for your contribution as well. Also, if I could also thank the committee clerking team and the integrated team because this has been a difficult piece of work because, as soon as the teams start to draft that report, based on the committee's and the Members' direction, then things change and technology changes and Ministers make statements during that drafting. So, it has been a difficult task for them and there were quite a lot of technical issues that were also coming up in detail. So, I think credit to them as well in that regard.

I look forward to the day when we have a debate in this Chamber when we are having a debate on 100 per cent of Wales being able to receive superfast broadband, good speeds and everyone is able to get a good mobile signal on their phones. I look forward to that day. Thank you to all who took part in the debate today.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.