Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:48 pm on 5 December 2017.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:48, 5 December 2017

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. On 13 November, Adam Price tabled a written question, which asked the First Minister if 

'he continues to be responsible for "staffing including the terms and conditions of Special Advisers'.

The answer came 10 days later:

'I retain a close interest in staffing but responsibility rests with the Permanent Secretary.'

But the code of conduct for special advisers says something that is diametrically the opposite of that:

'The responsibility for the management and conduct of special advisers, including discipline, rests with the First Minister who made the appointment.'

So, how does the First Minister reconcile what that said on paper with what he's just told Adam Price?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:49, 5 December 2017

I'm not responsible for the civil service in any way shape or form; I am responsible for special advisers and for their appointment. In terms of their pay and conditions as a line manager, that's the responsibility of somebody else. 

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

Conduct, yes, I am responsible for the conduct of special advisers.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP

Good. In which case, can the First Minister then confirm that the inquiry that is being undertaken, one of many—another day, another inquiry today—by James Hamilton will involve, also, an inquiry into the conduct of special advisers, because they are specifically responsible to him, the First Minister, ultimately, for their political conduct?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:50, 5 December 2017

No. The inquiry will look at whether I have breached the ministerial code in relation to the answers I gave in November 2014 and November 2017.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP

So, is the First Minister saying that the conduct of special advisers will not be part of the terms of the inquiry of James Hamilton?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

Well, I've referred myself, under the ministerial code, to the adviser. It will be a matter for the independent adviser to decide how, then, to take the inquiry forward.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Plaid Cymru leader, Leanne Wood.

Photo of Leanne Wood Leanne Wood Plaid Cymru

First Minister, as you said earlier, the Democratic Unionist Party torpedoed the UK's attempt to move on to the next stage in the Brexit talks, and the border in Ireland is the sticking point. None of us want a return to a hard border, but neither do we want to see barriers between Wales and our nearest neighbours. Barriers will be bad news for the port of Holyhead, as we heard earlier, for Stena Line, for Irish Ferries, for jobs, and bad news for other Welsh ports as well. There will be delays to business, and gridlock for passengers is the risk. We all know how much influence the DUP has. What influence can you use to protect the port of Holyhead from a new hard border?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:51, 5 December 2017

Well, we have spoken to the Irish Government about this and informed them, of course, of our concerns and they share our concerns. The last thing they want to see is a hard border between Wales and Ireland as a maritime border, and we are working with them in order to ensure that doesn't happen.

Photo of Leanne Wood Leanne Wood Plaid Cymru

First Minister, I used the word 'influence' on purpose. The Welsh national interest can only be protected if our MPs vote the right way on crucial Brexit divisions. Plaid Cymru's solution to the border problem, as you'll be aware, is for the UK to stay in the customs union. The UK Labour Party is supposed to be the official opposition in Westminster. You've just said, earlier on, that you want Wales to remain in the single market and that membership of the customs union is the solution to this problem. We heard earlier, also, about the importance of parliamentary democracy. Can you tell us, therefore, why Labour MPs voted against the UK membership of the customs union as recently as 20 November?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:52, 5 December 2017

First of all, it is gratifying to see that Labour and Plaid Cymru MPs have worked together in order to make sure that we look to try and get our amendments through the Commons and the Lords, which I very much welcome. She will know my view, and that is that I believe we should have full, unfettered access to the single market. We've agreed the same position. I also believe that the UK is best served by staying within the customs union. There will be different views in my party in London, and those views are well known, as some Members have put them. But my view is, as First Minister, that we are best served by staying in the customs union and having that access to the single market.

Photo of Leanne Wood Leanne Wood Plaid Cymru 1:53, 5 December 2017

The problem here is that we have a number of Labour views. We don't have clarity as to what the Labour position is, and there has been a failure by Labour MPs to protect our interests here in Wales, by the way that they vote. We're facing a weak and divided Tory Government, but a consensus has been allowed to be built over leaving the single market and the customs union. You've said that if a distinct deal is offered to another UK country, you expect that to be offered to Wales. Perhaps I trust Westminster a lot less than you do, First Minister, but as things stand, I expect Westminster not to offer us such a deal. But we can change that situation if we want to. In the absence of any action or initiative from the UK Labour Party, this Assembly can speak out. You have the power to ensure that Wales doesn't settle for second best here. As First Minister of this country, will you ensure that, when the time comes, Labour MPs in Westminster will back a distinct deal for Wales?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:54, 5 December 2017

Well, I think they've shown that through their actions last night, in fairness. 

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

It's not as if they haven't been supportive of the amendments that we have put down. But the perspective I have is this: I want to see a good deal for the whole UK. I think that's by far the easiest solution. Having a deal specifically for Wales is more difficult; there's no question about that. It's more difficult. It's not impossible; it's certainly more difficult. I would like to see the UK as a whole remain in the customs union, have full and unfettered access to the single market, and that means, of course, that Welsh businesses will be able to access the UK market, which is hugely important for them, and the EU market at the same time. I don't see that there needs to be any kind of competition between those two aims.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Leader of the opposition, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative

Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, did Leighton Andrews make a complaint of any nature in 2014 about the conduct or behaviour of members of staff in the Welsh Government or your office?

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative

First Minister, why have you subsequently, then, when we've been questioning you in this Chamber, indicated that you had issues brought to your attention by the individual I named and others, and that you dealt with those issues at that time? Because there are quite clearly two stories running here, and it is difficult for the impartial observer to try and get to the truth of what people want to hear, which is what was actually going on in 2014 and what action was taken by you. So, can you clear up who is telling the truth: Leighton Andrews or yourself?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

I just answered your question. There were no allegations of bullying.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative

So, you're saying that, in the answers you gave this Chamber over the last several weeks, where you identified—and these were your words—issues were addressed and actions were taken, that those issues were not related to behaviour of the nature that has been described by Leighton Andrews, by the special adviser or by other individuals who've gone to the press indicating such an atmosphere existed on the fifth floor, and they were brought to your attention. And you did say, in this Chamber, that you did take action. So, what action did you take, and what were the issues you were referring to in your previous answers?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:56, 5 December 2017

Issues that did not involve bullying. I've said no allegation was made by Leighton Andrews to me in regard to bullying. Were there issues that arose? Yes, there would be conflicts now and again between people—disputes about the titles of Bills, for example. When you have a talented team of people, sometimes they will rub up against each other.

Let me just make one thing clear: the narrative, the political narrative he's trying to create is that somehow the Government—[Interruption.] Oh, he's not, is he? That somehow, in 2014, the Government was in chaos and has been ever since. We delivered on all our manifesto promises between 2011 and 2016. We got back into power in 2016. The people of Wales trusted us to do that. Far from being ineffective, far from being a Government where people constantly spent their time arguing with each other, we were a Government that delivered for the people of Wales and delivered our manifesto as we promised.