1. Following the latest in a long line of local bank closure announcements, what action is the Welsh Government taking to introduce a public bank in accordance with the research conducted by the Public Policy Institute for Wales? 81

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Ministers have consistently called on commercial banks to maintain a strong branch network presence in Wales. The issue considered by the Public Policy Institute for Wales was the establishment of a public bank that prioritised economic development. The Development Bank of Wales will now take that report forward.

Well, the Cabinet Secretary will, of course, be aware of the announcements that a number of banks have made about branch closures throughout Wales, including in my constituency. With these latest announcements, the number of branches that will have closed since 2011 in Wales now extends to 186 branches, and five of the 10 areas that have faced the greatest number of branch closures are in Wales, including Carmarthenshire. So, it is a crisis. I have read the report, which was commissioned by the Government, of course. It was published by the Cabinet Secretary for the economy as a result of a short debate held by Plaid Cymru on banking. That report—it's not entirely correct to say that it only refers to economic development, because it also mentions models such as the Hampshire community bank, which relates to community banking. Therefore, may I ask, please, Cabinet Secretary, what you are going to do in terms of this crisis regarding community banking for the citizens of Wales, who are now in a situation where, in many parts of Wales, there is no financial service available for them at all?

Llywydd, I am aware of the figures and the pattern that have emerged here in Wales.

It is true to say that the report looked at a range of different models, but the weight of its consideration was quite clearly on how a public bank for Wales might be used to plug gaps in the wider economy, rather than looking at examples of how alternatives to high-street banking for customers coming in off the street might be developed. It does make a reference to the Hampshire model, although the last time that I asked for some information on the practical implementation of the Hampshire model, it wasn't looking as though it had made the progress that was hoped for by its originators.

The Public Policy Institute for Wales report says that the introduction of any model would be 'very challenging and complex' here in Wales. So, I think that the answer to the developments that the Member rightly points to may not be in the public bank debate that is very healthily going on in Wales, but in other things that we might be able to do: making sure that the Post Office is well placed to take on a wider range of banking activities, using the support that the Welsh Government provides to the post office network in Wales, making sure that credit union membership is available right across Wales, using the nearly £0.5 million of additional investment that we're providing for credit unions this year—I've this week discussed with some credit union interests whether financial transaction capital might be useful to them in facing some of the challenges that they have to get over—and, by that community-level activity, to do what we can to make sure that the services on the high street that people have used hitherto in banking, but are, we have to recognise, using less and less—that we still have high-street access for people who need it.

Cabinet Secretary, the figures I have are that 152 banks have closed between 2011 and 2016, with 20 more to close in 2018—there are yet another two in my constituency, in Treforest and Talbot Green. The most worrying aspect to this is the total lack of any social or community responsibility from the banks, even in terms of the most basic consultation with those particular communities. I've met consistently with banks every time a closure has been announced. These are corporate decisions that are taken—there is no engagement, no consultation. When you ask about other banks, because one bank will say, 'Well, we're closing Pontyclun because you can now use Talbot Green', the next one is that Talbot Green closes, and they say, 'Ah, well, you can now use Treforest', and then they close Treforest. So, every time we discuss these matters with the banks, not only have they broken all of the promises they made—they did at one stage have an agreement that there would be no bank that would be the last bank, they agreed it with the trade unions, and that's been broken. It seems to me that there is a total contempt, almost, for the concept of customer service in favour of product sales from centralised and online banking.

What I'd ask for—. I welcome what you say about the Post Office and credit unions, because it seems to me that those are things that we have to look at, but it does seem to me that we do have to press—I understand that this is undoubtedly a UK Government matter—for a statutory basis to consultation with banking services. Banks are all too happy to take public money when they get into a mess and they require support from public funds. It seems to me that it is not unreasonable, as the Labour opposition in Westminster has asked for, for there to be a statutory obligation on banks to provide a public service and at least to have a meaningful statutory consultation process. 

I thank the Member for that very useful contribution. I'm sure every single one of us here, at constituency level, are dealing with the consequences of bank closures in urban and in rural Wales. I recognise what the Member says about the nature of consultation, which often does seem to be carried out simply to confirm a commercial decision that the bank has already taken. A statutory basis for consultation would strengthen the rights of individuals and their representatives to make sure that proper arguments about access and equity—and the needs of different populations and groups within populations—could be properly put to banks, at least with some confidence that those views were being properly articulated and heard.

Can I agree with the contribution from Mick Antoniw? I would say there's not one Member in this Chamber who's successfully been able to change a bank's mind once they've taken their decision. I have previously raised in this Chamber the idea of the Government facilitating discussions between the bank and the Financial Conduct Authority and other partners to explore a community banking model that would see banks share services. Now, I've heard what you've said about post offices and credit unions, but when I've raised this proposal before with your colleagues in Government, in the Chamber here, I've always had a positive response. The First Minister gave me a positive response earlier this year, saying that he would consider that proposal. But, can I ask what developments there have been? I don't really want to hear one word saying it's a good idea; what I want to hear is an update. Have you met with the banks? Have your colleagues met with the banks? Have you had discussions with the Financial Conduct Authority? Can we make progress on Government facilitating discussions with the banks to take this forward?

Llywydd, as the Member will know, this is primarily the responsibility of my colleague Ken Skates in taking forward the suggestions that he has made. The note that I have is that, as a result of a previous question that he raised, Welsh Government officials have had discussions with regional leads in the banking industry to look at ways in which bank premises in rural locations, for example, could be repurposed to help deliver wider community services, and that those discussions have also touched on the community facilities programme that we have as a Welsh Government to see whether existing facilities that are being adapted with community facilities and activities programme funding could include a banking purpose in the way that services from those premises are provided in future. I'll make sure that my colleague knows of the question you've raised this afternoon. I think you can be assured that it has been more than just words, that actual meetings have taken place and a potential agenda for action is being developed as a result of those meetings. 

To give a flavour of the scale and pace of change in this industry, about 16 years ago as a Member of Parliament, I remember opening the first cashpoint in Llandysul—I get all the glamourous jobs. Sixteen years ago, I opened the first cashpoint in Llandysul. I took out the first £10 from the first cashpoint in Llandysul. At that stage, there were four high-street banks in Llandysul, 16 years ago. Now there are none whatsoever. The last one is going. It's a market town left with no banking whatsoever. You've got to go 10 miles down to Newcastle Emlyn, at the very least, to get to a bank. That shows the pace of change that's happened in the industry. Technology has taken over. Yes, people are doing online banking, but my particular concern today is that small and medium-sized businesses cannot often access that, and we still have a real need, in rural areas, for cash banking for our businesses and that's not being provided.

Yes, there's an opportunity to strengthen the post office network, and I would very much urge that we use that while that network is still there to a certain extent and put some spine into that. But is it also not the time to start to consider, with your colleagues in Westminster, that banking needs some kind of statutory obligation around it? It is no longer possible to be a member of modern society without access to modern banking accounts—and it's certainly not possible to be a business in that way—and yet, we're in danger of ripping out economic development from parts of our rural areas precisely because of this reason. We don't let it happen for broadband—we ensure that there are statutory reasons why you must provide broadband to parts of rural areas. We must be looking at a statutory obligation for banking, and access to banking, for our businesses, our customers and our citizens in rural areas.

I thank Simon Thomas for those points. My party had exactly that policy in our manifesto at elections this year, and, I think, in 2015. It's based on the 1976 community banking Act that's been there in the United States of America ever since that time. Where a bank retreats from a high street, it has a legal obligation to ensure that there are replacement facilities for those, where a need can be demonstrated, and to provide the funding that creates those facilities.

Where there are rural communities, as in Llandysul, where no banking facilities exist—or, even, in urban communities. I could've replicated his account for the high street in Llandaff in my constituency. Now, you could say, 'Well, Llandaff is in an urban area and you could find another bank not that far away.' But actually, for certain groups in the population who are not used to online banking, and for whom mobility can be a difficulty, the need for a face-to-face place where you can go and transact business is very real.

It's just those sorts of identified needs that the 1976 banking Act in the United States was designed to address, and I think it lends strength to the argument the Member has made about a statutory framework to ensure that individuals and areas are not abandoned from essential services in this area in the future.

I think we're all singing from pretty much the same hymn sheet in relation to this question, Cabinet Secretary. The last couple of weeks have seen NatWest announce another swathe of closures across Wales—one in Chepstow in my constituency. The last swathe of banking closures was bad enough out in rural areas, but those cutbacks now seem to be extending to larger towns as well, which I think is deeply worrying for our constituents. I think if I would have one criticism of this question, it's trying to do a bit too much, I think, which isn't really a criticism at all, because, obviously, you've conflated two concerns: on the one hand retail banking, but then also the development bank and the role that that has to play.

I think, Cabinet Secretary, you were quite right in saying that, yes, the Welsh Government should be—and, we believe, certainly reforming Finance Wales—setting up a development bank of some type. But that is no substitute for private retail banking out there that's public facing. So, Cabinet Secretary, in terms of, on the one hand, the development bank, will you give an assurance that, when that is finalised, it will, very much as our 'Invest Wales' policy had a few years ago, propose a public-facing high street presence as much as possible so it's accessible to business out there when they need it? And secondly, on the issue of retail banking, yes, it probably does need to have a far stronger statutory footing. I found myself agreeing, maybe worryingly, with Mick Antoniw on this matter. I think he made some excellent points.

Is it possible to have—I appreciate this is not totally within the remit of the Welsh Government—but is it possible to have some sort of forum? We obviously all agree here on the need to retain that retail banking out in our towns and rural areas. Is it possible to have some sort of forum where the banks know full well how we feel about these closures, that they are made to have a far more effective consultation, and that when they say that this is the last round of closures for so long, that when we, as AMs, listen to that, and they convey that to our constituents, that then they have to stick with that, and we don't see a situation, as we have at the moment, where more closures are happening? And all of us—our postbags are full of concerns from people who really do feel that, without internet banking, they're not going to have any access to banking at all.

Llywydd, Nick Ramsay makes a number of important points. I don't think the banks are in any doubt about the strength of feeling that their actions engender in local communities and on behalf of people who represent those communities. Their answer to you would be that they are commercial organisations and they are acting commercially. Our answer, in return, has to be that even commercial organisations have certain obligations to the communities that they serve, because their ability to be successful commercial organisations depends, very often, on the public infrastructure that surrounds them and allows them to do business.

So, I agree with him about the need to make sure that there is no ambiguity in the messages that we give to the retail banking sector about those obligations. I agree with other contributors this afternoon that more could be done to place a statutory framework around that in terms of consultation and in terms of replacement services. The Welsh Government plays its part in that, albeit always having to recognise that most of these responsibilities are ones that do not lie in our hands.

In relation to the first point that Nick Ramsay made about an accessible service from the Development Bank of Wales, that is exactly what our ambition would be. The best way to achieve that is something that we will want to continue to work on, but the principle of making sure that the Development Bank of Wales will be readily accessible to those who will want to use it is one with which we would have no disagreement.

And finally, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, I agree with most of the sentiment that has been expressed in this Chamber; you can't dispute that. One of the points that has been made about the assurances Members have received from the banks about neighbouring banks taking up the slack, as it were, is one of the most frustrating arguments that has been put time and time again. In Llantwit Major, when NatWest shut their branch there, Cowbridge was pointed to as the neighbouring branch that would take up the slack. You queue out the door some days in NatWest in Cowbridge to use the facilities there and yet on 4 June that bank, next year, is due to close. So, it's the inconsistencies with the information that banks are providing.

I hear what you say about the commercial nature—and I agree; banking is a commercial business. But what assessment has the Welsh Government made in relation to the gaps that will now appear in the ability for small businesses in particular to use banks in the traditional way of seeking advice about loans and financial facilities, but also to do their business banking? I had a meeting earlier in the year with the investment bank for Wales, and the chairman made this point: that there is evidence there that shows that commercial banks are withdrawing from certain parts of Wales and withdrawing their lending facilities, which will have a detrimental impact on businesses. So, has the Welsh Government made any assessment of the wider context that these closures have, not just for the individuals who have got accounts with the banks, but also businesses who depend on a source of finance and also to do their day-to-day banking?

Well, let me begin by agreeing with what Andrew R.T. Davies has said about the inconsistencies in some of the arguments that we hear from the banking industry and how some of the undertakings that it has previously given, as Mick Antoniw said, never to be the final bank to close—that's a promise that they have failed to live up to, we know, in many instances. From the public's point of view, it is often quite difficult to understand the link between their own experience of a bank that is always busy when they visit it, which seems to be working flat out, when the bank says to them that it is closing because its services are no longer needed.

What I will do is make sure that the points that have been made this afternoon, particularly in relation to access to banking services by businesses in those parts of Wales where the banking coverage is now skeletal or non-existent—I'll make sure that Ken Skates has heard those points clearly and that he is able to take them up in the plans that he will be developing to make sure that businesses in Wales are not frustrated in their ability to conduct their own affairs or to grow because there aren't services for them that they are able to access.

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary. The next question—Suzy Davies.