I absolutely concede that I haven't been to Berwyn, but it's far too soon for us to know how it's going to perform, as it only opened at the beginning of this year. I certainly don't think we should be jumping into another superprison. We have an appalling record in terms of recidivism and at the moment we lock people up to make them into more successful criminals, particularly those on short sentence, despite the best efforts of individual prison offers and other agencies who endeavour to change that. But this isn't about attacking people in the system, nor is it about denying that victims need justice and that people have to serve their time. But we cannot be moving towards the US system, where they spend more money on locking people up than they spend on education, so this is not the solution, it seems to me. And I don't understand, therefore, why Wales should be part of the broken, ineffective criminal justice system that we have at the moment. The particulars of this site is that I understand it's due to go over a piece of land that Mark Barry has designated as part of the Swansea regional metro, and that seems absolutely crazy, if that is a strategic part of that.

The fact is that half of the adults released from prison reoffend, and 65 per cent of those—two thirds—reoffend if they've had a sentence of less than one year. So, it's completely pointless sending people to prison for sentences of less than a year, because we need to have other ways of ensuring that they serve their time. The recidivism is much less for people who've been given cautions. I just find the way in which criminal justice is completely dominated by the prejudices peddled by the Daily Mail, which for decades have been putting out their vitriol for anybody who tries to describe a different system—. Their vitriol doesn't just extend to offenders—it extends to children. I fully recall the deeply disagreeable campaign to stop a children's Christmas party at Holloway prison, all because it had been released that the prison officers had organised this for these children, who obviously are the most disadvantaged people, who lose their parents when they go to prison.

I just think that the cost per bed of £40,000 a year could be better spent. We need to look at better systems within Europe. For example, in Norway, the penal system—yes, people go to prison, but they are given trust and responsibility as soon as they are able to demonstrate that they are determined to live a crime-free life on release. They get weekly conjugal visits, which is a very important thing, because it enables families to stay together, which is a key part of preventing people going back to being criminals. If you treat people like animals, they're likely to behave like animals. Instead, in Norway, they live in pods—bungalows of four to six adults. They get to buy their own food for breakfast and supper; they only have one meal prepared for them. And they work in order to earn their keep.

I agree that Swansea and Cardiff are reaching the end of their life, but realising this asset would give us the resources to build a different sort of prison that retains the links to the local community. I can tell you that the people whose loved ones are currently in Cardiff prison don't have the money to go to Port Talbot. We need somewhere to hold people close to Cardiff—somewhere within metro distance of Cardiff. I hope that we don’t have this new superprison in south Wales. I don't feel the need for it, and I think we should do something completely different in Wales.