We now move to the short debate. If you are leaving the Chamber, please do so quietly, and, if you're staying in the Chamber, please stay quiet. If you're having conversations, can you have them outside of the Chamber, please?

We now move to the short debate and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to speak on the topic she has chosen. Janet.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I've given a minute to Angela Burns AM, Suzy Davies AM and David Rowlands AM, but he's not here. Right.

Growing older or maturing in years is something that should be enjoyed; it is also something to be celebrated. In today's society with the use of sci-fi technology, the progress of modern medicine, a more affluent society, it cannot be beyond the realms of any nation or its Government to champion, to empower and to stand up and recognise the true value to society of these incredible people—800,000, in fact, currently living in Wales. Out of a population size of around 3 million, this is a sizeable number, who deserve respect, are entitled to their independence, and deserve the freedom to make decisions about their own lives.

Wales has previously been a pioneering nation for the interests of our older people in many ways, with the creation of the world's first older people's commissioner role in 2006. I have to pay tribute to Sarah Rochira, our commissioner now, for her outstanding work on behalf of our older citizens. However, the time has come to acknowledge these basic rights, to empower and enshrine these rights in a charter, and, as we have called for in our manifesto, some legislation that will place firmly on record what they are entitled to, that they will be protected, and they will be valued as they deserve.

In order to empower older people to feel ownership of their rights and entrench positive attitudes in society and the workplace, a dedicated set of rights within the particular Welsh context is essential. In extending and promoting the rights of older people, we can support those across Wales to remain active members of the family, our community, and, indeed, our society.

The overarching aim of this debate is to call for the introduction of measures, codified in law, to tackle ageism, promote ageing well and embed older people's well-being within public service delivery. Developing further from the current declaration of rights for older people in Wales, such a charter or Bill for older people would enshrine the rights of older people within Welsh law, placing a direct duty of due regard on public bodies, including the duty to consult older people when making decisions about services and issues that affect their lives. It would also place an obligation on the Welsh Government to promote knowledge of and understanding of the rights of older people across Wales.

The Older People's Commissioner for Wales, Sarah Rochira, has been a real champion, and I say that twice to just endorse the work she's done. I have been mightily impressed—no fear or favour, she's stood up for the people whom she's there to represent. And she's certainly not shied away from standing up to the Government and standing up for this amazing generation when their health, their quality of life and their dignity has been compromised. The importance of such dedicated rights is clear when we look at instances where policies relating to older people have been sidelined by the Welsh Government.

Just recently, we learnt that the ministerial strategy to tackle loneliness and isolation amongst older people will now not be published until next year, 2019—too late for many of our older people. We know that loneliness is a significant public health risk. In comparison, it's actually compared to being as damaging as smoking and affects 0.5 million people in Wales. Amongst older people in particular, Age Cymru have found that 300,000 individuals feel that their days can be repetitive and 75,000 were not looking forward to our last Christmas.

Clearly we need to take urgent steps to improve the quality of life in society for our older people. It is essential that we see greater focus from the Welsh Government on developing innovative policy solutions, including real integration of health and social care. It is a bit daunting when you stand here, when we know that we've had the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 and we're no closer now to seeing true integration of those services. Long-promised, but never delivered. 

A Welsh charter or bill of rights, codified in law, would make rights in these areas especially more relevant to older people on an individual basis and enable them to identify when their rights are not being upheld, and allow them to challenge service providers. These are basic rights now under the European convention on human rights and the Human Rights Act 1998, but they need to be basic rights here, from this Welsh Government, and, you know, enshrined in Welsh law to dignify the right to liberty, the right to security and the right to make decisions about their lives, to the freedom of association, and the freedom from inhuman and degrading treatment. Such direct and clear ownership of these rights could directly lead to improved confidence for many in challenging poor services.

This would complement the potential additional powers for the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, proposed in the current draft Bill, encouraging more older people to speak up where they have experienced poor treatment, particularly relating to their age. We know that this is important. The Older People's Commissioner for Wales, Sarah, has noted that age discrimination and ageism are widely tolerated across the world. Further, she states that the most effective way to ensure that older people's rights are guaranteed does require legislation and legislation that would create specific duties to protect and promote older people's rights. 

We, as the Welsh Conservative group—and I'm extremely proud to be able to work with them on this—have long called for the commissioner to become accountable and actually appointed by this National Assembly for Wales, rather than Welsh Government. Because there is a conflict, there is pressure and I think only today, when we've heard of a toxic culture of bullying in our health service in Wales, that people, when they're part of associations, groups and organisations that are there, fundamentally, to protect our citizens—that they shouldn't feel threatened or intimidated in any way by this Government. Such a shift could be included alongside the introduction of this kind of legislation.

Ensuring such accountability would allow for proper cross-party scrutiny and dedicated older people's legislation. This would be an opportunity to make that a reality. Deputy Presiding Officer, at events that I've held, in speaking with constituents, through various visits to homes, hospices and hospitals, I have heard first hand from older people, particularly those who are more vulnerable. They feel their voices are not heard. Their rights are not respected. Many don't even know what their rights are. And the quality of service they sometimes receive is being diminished. Such anecdotal evidence has also been referred to by the commissioner. She has highlighted the devastating impact that this can have upon their lives. One only has to look at the work she did on social care and the care homes, and social care management across Wales. It was left where that service is very much wanting. 

Ensuring the promotion and protection of clear rights that older people can feel ownership of will go a long way to ensuring that this demographic across Wales lives free from abuse, free from neglect, ageism and discrimination, and can continue to participate fully in their communities and thrive in older age. We mustn't forget that every one of us here, and everybody outside, they all will be getting older. We certainly don't—. The clock doesn't go backwards; it goes forwards. So, what if we could be leaders and pioneers here, in Wales, really enshrining the rights of our older people to protect them?

It is my view that the most effective way to ensure that this approach is adopted across Wales is through much-needed legislation that does create specific duties to protect and promote older people's rights in a similar way that the children's Measure was strengthened for the rights of children and young people in 2011, and make rights more relevant and real to individuals. I cannot understand why we have those rights enshrined for children and young people—and I obviously respect those and we want those—but our older people deserve equally. We talk about equality so often in this Welsh Government, but until we have those rights enshrined in a charter or, indeed, in firm and robust legislation, then we are failing those 800,000 now, but it's a growing demographic and it's going to get a lot larger. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr.

I'd like to thank Janet Finch-Saunders for bringing forward this concept, and, Minister, I would urge you to consider it, because only yesterday we were having a debate about the removal of the defence of chastisement. We were talking about respect and respect for children, and sometimes I think we forget that older people also deserve that respect and that tolerance, because we think they've been around the block, that they're there, they're all part of it. Let me give you one example about how we need to change the language of how we address older people. A&Es, they are clogged up—not with older people all the time, but with young kids with bronchiolitis and all sorts of other things. But what do we constantly hear? Bedblocking—'Old people bedblocking and getting in the way.' Being old is something to be celebrated. It is wonderful to live a long life. What we need to do is give dignity towards people who are getting older.

In my constituency, we have a higher than average number of older people within the constituency, and there are many things that could be done to improve their life, but instead we're taking services away. We forget to think about how an older person manages their day, manages their week, manages their life. If we had such a charter and it was enshrined, it would at least force us to take into account the way an older person lives their life, the challenges they have to face, their ability to access transport, healthcare and social interaction. Because, as Janet rightly said, social isolation and loneliness is one of the key killers of older people. This could be a way forward—

It is a minute—

—and I would urge you, Minister, to at least consider this. Thank you.

One of my concerns about the UNCRC as it has been applied in Wales is that it only binds us here in the Assembly and in the Welsh Government, and we've long called—certainly on this side of the Chamber—for those rights to be enshrined at all levels of public service, including local authorities, and certainly in our health services. So, I don't know whether you've considered, in looking at older people's rights, whether all our public service areas should be obliged to pay due regard to them, not just us here in the Assembly and at Welsh Government level. I reiterate what Janet Finch-Saunders said about the opportunity for the commissioner for older people to be accountable and chosen by us here in this Assembly, rather than by Government, and I also ask you to consider that if we are to be serious about introducing rights, then they must be accompanied by duties that those rights are observed.

Thank you very much. Now, can I call on the Minister for Children and Social Care to reply to the debate? Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. First of all, can I thank Janet for bringing this debate in front of us today, and also the other Members who have contributed, and those who have stayed here to listen to this important debate as well, on a very important topic? I also begin by paying tribute to the commissioner for older people, Sarah Rochira, who I met with early on in my appointment as Minister, and will continue to meet with regularly. The important thing about the role of the commissioner for older people is its independence, and the fact that she feels able to, and frequently does, speak out powerfully for the right of older people, will feel free to criticise Government policy, where appropriate—will also, I have to say, feel free to recognise where this Assembly and this Government have made great strides. I know that didn't feature greatly in the opening contribution there, but she has actually—and I can see the Member nodding—she has actually recognised that Wales has done some great things in this field and has actually led the way. I think, in the spirit of the debate and the way that it has been moved, that's where we need to keep out focus—in Wales leading the way. So, I do welcome this debate today.

I think we all realise that the real tangible difference to older people's lives can only be made through working together. It is a shared commitment right across the statutory sector, but also the private—and we often forget the third sectors as well—to shape and deliver services that are sensitive to the individual needs of older people in Wales. And all of those services must be working to assist people to live independently for as long as possible and for as long as they choose to do that, and to do so, as has been remarked on, with dignity and respect. We are not all going to get to the age of Methuselah, which I think was 969, begetting children when you move into the 100s and 200s and 300s, but we will have longer lives, and to be able to do that healthily and well and to live with dignity and security is an important part of the way we take this agenda forward in Wales. That, by the way, is why the recently published population needs assessments are so important in signposting the scale of the challenge and how we need to rise to it. The first population assessment reports were published last year. They provide a clear and specific evidence base to form a range of planning and operational decisions, and I'll turn to a couple of those challenges and the scale of them right now.

It showed us that older people are, as has been mentioned in the opening remarks, particularly vulnerable to loneliness and isolation, and I'll come back to that in a moment. We all see that, by the way, as individual Assembly Members and in friends and neighbours and within our own communities, so I'll come back to that. We know from the assessment that there are increasing numbers of older people with dementia, and this is forecast to rise. There is increasing frailty, increasing ill-health. We see this—older people with complex needs and often with complex comorbidity issues as well. More falls—simple things like that can have a major impact on the quality of life of an individual if they're not provided with the right support and equipment to avoid falls within the home. How do you live independently without that? We know that older people need to be supported to live independently in their own homes, that older people with more complex needs need to be supported in appropriate residential and nursing care as well and that older people are more likely to develop sight and hearing loss and so on and so on. These are the challenges—some of the challenges.

We are, as a Welsh Government, committed to tackling these challenges and securing older people's rights and ensuring dignity in retirement and the security of older people. I want to turn to some of the ways that we are already doing that before we look at the ways that we can go forward in the future. Through our existing legislation, the rights of older people are embedded in the Social Services and Well-Being (Wales) Act 2014, the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016. Members here took part in those debates, and the rights of older people are embedded within all that legislation, and of course what that means for the public body and the persons affected by that legislation. So, our social services Act requires any person exercising functions under the Act to have due regard to the United Nations principles for older persons and to demonstrate that it has complied with the principles in a meaningful way. Now, there are 18 of those principles, but the five themes are: independence, participation, self-fulfilment, care and dignity. This legislation is designed to ensure that well-being, the rights and the entitlements are at the centre of key policies and plans and is described in a way that reflects older people's voices and the issues that matter to them.

But the Welsh Government already demonstrates a real commitment to support, promote and protect the rights of older people, so the existing older people's rights declaration sends a clear message to statutory bodies and to service providers in Wales, as well as to older people themselves, about the expectation around the provision of support and services to allow older people to lead independent and full lives. Through that declaration, older people are supported to understand the rights that apply to them, how to access their rights more effectively and how they relate to current law and to equality and human rights law as well. And we worked closely with the older people's commissioner's office to develop that declaration. Wales was the first country in the UK to establish the older people's commissioner. We attach, as I've said, great importance to this role and its independence. This is reflected in our commitment to the Ageing Well approach, which is delivered in partnership with the Older People's Commissioner for Wales. If you look at that Ageing Well in Wales programme, it brings together individuals, communities, public, private and voluntary sectors to develop and promote innovative and practical ways to make Wales a nation of age-friendly communities.

That issue of an age-friendly community is at the centre of the national strategy for older people. In light of the recent legislation that I've referred to, we've committed to update the strategy to ensure that it remains relevant and ambitious to drive the improvements in well-being for older people in Wales.

Will you take an intervention?

I will indeed give way.

I'm grateful for the Minister taking an intervention. Could he explain what he thinks is an 'age-friendly community'? In what sense would an age-friendly community operate under what the Minister has outlined there? Because very often we talk about care and looking after older people, but as my colleague Angela Burns touched on, they're something to be celebrated, older people, and we know that they're an increasing demographic in our society.

Indeed, I'll turn to that. He's foreshadowed some of the remarks I was going to come to, so bear with me and I'll come to that issue of what it looks like.

The strategy, which encompasses the age-friendly communities, must promote the important role that older people play in society, including, as has rightly been remarked, those people who in older years want to continue working, and will continue working in the voluntary sector, will continue playing active roles and lives as parents and grandparents, as carers and so on and so forth, and through their engagement in paid or unpaid work, sharing their knowledge, their experience and acknowledging their valuable contribution. So, the ministerial advisory forum for ageing is advising the Government on the development of the strategy to ensure that any future policy reflects what really matters to older people in Wales.

The public services boards and the regional partnership boards must take into account what matters to older people, and the challenges faced by older people when determining the level and the range of local and regional services. This is, as has been remarked, more important than ever before, as it is expected that Wales will have the most dramatic increase of the nations in people aged 85 and over, with a predicted nearly 120 per cent increase by 2035. And that will be you—looking across the Chamber—and  me.

Loneliness and isolation have been remarked upon, and their particular importance for people aged 80 and over, although they could affect anybody at any age. Over half of older people over the age of 75 live alone, and they are at particular risk of loneliness and isolation with greater and more specific needs linked to both physical and mental health and well-being. I commend in these remarks some of the initiatives that I've seen when I've travelled about. Suzy Davies will know the OlympAge event that's been held I think two years running now, where young people who are being trained in social work and care work have taken part along with older people, mainly from residential homes, but also people living alone, and lonely, being brought into taking part in fun activities on the day, supported by local authorities but also the third sector as well. Things like that, plus the men's shed movement—this has to be a properly joined-up approach to tackling isolation.

Our programme for government, 'Taking Wales Forward', provides a clear commitment to develop a nationwide and a cross-Government strategy to address loneliness, and some of the specifics, because it is sometimes helpful to look at the specifics when we talk about what this looks like in a community, as Andrew said. So, for example, we've already funded through the Welsh Government a three-year phased approach to establishing volunteer-led community networks that support lonely and isolated individuals within communities, through this social prescribing model that we've talked about here before: the idea that we work within communities rather than simply relying on, if you like, the traditional idea of 'I'm feeling unwell, I'm feeling lonely'—well, medication is the immediate answer. Sometimes it is, but actually social prescribing and getting people involved in these local community networks—these aren't simply words. We're funding initiatives to develop those networks across Wales.

We've funded research into volunteer-led approaches to tackle loneliness and isolation, and these recommend the promotion of volunteer-led approaches to tackling loneliness. We've provided three-year funding to the British Red Cross and the Royal Voluntary Service of just short of £890,000 under the sustainable social services third sector grant, which enables the provision of a seamless support service to older people in Wales who experience acute loneliness and isolation, ill health, and the affordability of a good-quality life in retirement, because we know that very often the issue of loneliness is tied to the inability to actually get out and about in one's community as well, and to visit friends, and to keep in contact with friends, neighbours and family.

So, we recognise the contribution that access to public transport has on tackling loneliness and isolation. Currently, as you know, the Welsh Government is consulting on the future of the hugely popular free concessionary bus scheme for older or disabled persons to make sure that people have access to that. There are approximately, at the moment, just short of 750,000 existing pass holders who are able to travel for free on local bus services. You and I will know—we meet them, they say how much they use them and how much they value this. It's so popular at the moment, in fact, the current scheme, that almost half of journeys on local bus services are undertaken by pass holders. I haven't got one yet, but I am looking forward to it in future.

There are also things such as access to public toilets, which has been much debated here recently in the passage of a recent Bill, to support older people to be active members of their communities and reducing isolation. These are practical things. Access to toilets for public use is an issue that affects the health, the dignity and the quality of people's lives. So, we will open a consultation imminently on guidance for local authorities on how they should prepare and publish local toilet strategies for their areas. That will be in January, so it'll be in front of us very, very soon.

I want to turn in the time remaining here to some of the points that were made, not least on dementia. Dementia is now one of the most significant health and social care challenges that we face. It's estimated that 40,000 to 50,000 people in Wales are living with dementia. Within 'Taking Wales Forward' the Welsh Government committed to take further action to make Wales a dementia-friendly country, through developing and implementing a new national dementia plan. I would say as well we all have a role to play in this. My own staff are just going through retraining as a dementia-friendly office. Maesteg, the town I live in and work in, is proud of its credentials as being a dementia-friendly town as well. So, we've all got a role to play. Stakeholders have helped shape the dementia plan, which sets out the actions and outcomes required along each stage of the care pathway, and it'll include raising awareness and understanding, assessment and diagnosis, and ensuring that care and support is able to flex with individual needs, because this is a journey.

I'm conscious of the time, madam deputy speaker, but I wanted to turn, if I can find it, very briefly to address the issue of rights. The older people's commissioner has made clear in a statement, even within the last day, that she sees legislation underpinning rights still being a primary way forward, but she's also made clear within that statement that she wants to work with Welsh Government. In fact, I met with her very recently and she's working with my team as well to make sure that we take immediate and tangible steps to actually deliver practical progress that will deliver the outcomes that we've talked about within this debate for older people, regardless of the issue of delivering a piece of legislation that delivers rights. She is still fixed on that and she will press Government, as she has pressed Government before, and as the Member opposite says she will as well, and I'm sure her colleagues will.

But I would simply say that in pressing for that we also need to get on with delivering, and I've touched on some of the ways we're doing it already. I think collectively we need to make clear, as has been said, as Angela said in her contribution, that actually ageing and ageing well is a thing of celebration. It really is. And in that case, we do need to actually show in our contributions and in the way that we debate this and we take it forward that we're proud, as a nation, to do everything we can to make lives well lived, long lives well lived—do everything we can. This debate is part of it, but we also have to do that with tangible measures, and my commitment, in closing the debate here today, and to the children's commissioner, is to continue the work with all people to make sure that we do that, because it's in all our interest as we live longer.

Thank you very much. That brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 18:54.