Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Thank you, Llywydd. According to the 'Wales procurement policy statement', public procurement, when used effectively, is

'a strategic tool to deliver economic benefit to the people of Wales.'

It’s no surprise, therefore, that the Government, as you note in your economic strategy ‘Prosperity for All’, published just recently, is endeavouring to increase the level of Welsh purchasing in the public sector in order to create jobs and help businesses in Wales. So, may I ask whether the percentage of Welsh purchasing in the public sector that you’re directly responsible for is increasing or decreasing?

Well, in general, it’s increasing, Llywydd.

Well, I can tell the Cabinet Secretary that’s not the case and it’s going down. In 2015-16, in that financial year, 41 per cent of health service procurement was made in Wales, according to your statistics, but, by the following year, the percentage had fallen to 39 per cent. In response to an inquiry by the Public Accounts Committee recently, the Welsh Government stated that you were trying to lead by example. But, since 2015-16, the percentage of Welsh purchasing by the Welsh Government itself has fallen from 44 per cent to 41 per cent in that year—the most recent year. So, can the Welsh Government set a specific target for the level of Welsh procurement by the Welsh Government and the health service, and put it, for example, on an equal level with local government, which is succeeding in reaching a level of 59 per cent of expenditure remaining in Wales? If you were to do that, that would lead, immediately, to an additional £400 million of expenditure through businesses in Wales.

Let me say this to the Member, Llywydd: there's no difference at all between us in an ambition to see the percentage of public procurement spend in Wales that goes to Welsh companies grow and to grow across the different opportunities that there are there. We are reviewing the future of procurement policy in Wales, particularly in the light of Brexit, to see whether there will be more opportunities to do that in the future. I'm perfectly happy to ask the group of people who are charged with that responsibility, and the stakeholder group that is assisting them, to take a view on whether targets would assist in that process. They have a part to play, potentially, but they can be distorting, we know, as well. So, I'd want to make sure that the idea was thoroughly considered. If the conclusion were that it is a useful way of improving the position, then that is exactly what we are trying to do, so I would, of course, take that advice very seriously.

Well, I would suggest that it would be at least beneficial to have a target so that the level increases, rather than decreases, as is happening at the moment.

Let's turn to another question that Siân Gwenllian alluded to, namely the level of regional investment. In 'Prosperity for All', the Government outlines its aspiration to ensure that every part of Wales benefits from investment and economic growth, but the figures published recently by yourselves demonstrate that spending per capita on infrastructure, for example, next year in south-east Wales is going to be twice as much as it is in north Wales and three times as much per capita as mid and west Wales. This inequality is disgraceful. It is entirely contrary to the claimed strategy of 'Prosperity for All'. Perhaps that should be renamed in light of this information. Now, would the Government commit to ensuring that the remit letter of the national infrastructure commission for Wales includes a commitment to ensuring more equal investment by the Welsh Government across Wales?

Llywydd, geography is not the determining principle of our capital programme. The determining principle is best value for the investments that we make, and best-value investments happen right across Wales and the proportions of capital spend in different parts of Wales change over time, as different projects come to the fore. No part of Wales is left out of our capital programme and we will continue to invest right across Wales, but not on the basis of geography, not on the basis of saying that everybody must have the same level of investment, because different parts of Wales have different sorts of needs, and these will change over time, and it is much more important to align capital spend with need and best value than it is with a simplistic appeal to geography.

Conservative spokesperson, Nick Ramsay.

Diolch, Llywydd. I refer the Cabinet Secretary to the questions already asked by the previous Member. That's the problem with coming second, isn't it, but there we are—not politically, that is, I mean in the order today.

Cabinet Secretary, procurement is clearly on the lips of most Assembly Members in the wake of the collapse of Carillion, and that clearly affected services and projects across the UK, but also, to a lesser extent, in Wales. The outsourcing firm Capita have also announced that they are in some financial difficulty. What assessment have you made of the Welsh Government's dealings with Capita in terms of the extent of the contracts with them and your assessment of the risk posed by those agreements?

Llywydd, we work carefully with the UK Government in relation both to Carillion and Capita. The UK Government confirmed that they're not standing up a team with Capita in the way that they did with Carillion, but that they continue to monitor Capita very closely, and the Cabinet Office are heavily engaged with Capita in addressing some of the underlying issues that that company faces. We have produced an overview of spend and services delivered by Capita in Wales, and we've shared that with the Cabinet Office in order that the efforts that the UK Government are making in this area can be fully informed about the needs of Wales.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I asked a number of written questions to the Welsh Government—some to yourself, some to the economy and transport Secretary. And, as I understand it, the Welsh Government has signed five contracts with Capita for the delivery of services in Wales. I further understand that there hasn't been any substantive discussions with Capita within the last six months. Do you think it would be wise for the Welsh Government to engage a little bit more with Capita at this point? I appreciate there's a UK dimension to this as well—but just to make sure that risk is mitigated as much as possible.

I can assure the Member that action is happening within the Welsh Government to make sure that any exposure in Wales to Capita is fully understood, and that where discussions directly with the company would be helpful in managing through the position that they face, then we would certainly be open to do that. Capita is not in the same position as Carillion, as far as we are aware, and it's important that we conduct our relationships with them in a way that doesn't give rise to undue alarm that wouldn't be merited by the facts.

I appreciate the Cabinet Secretary for his answer to that. In asking the question, I'm aware that there are big differences, but nonetheless these areas, I think, do need to be scrutinised. Adam Price has already mentioned the Wales Audit Office criticism of recent procurement procedures. Their remit is here, clearly, but there have been faults with procurement procedures across the UK as well. I think in answer to your earlier question to Adam you mentioned the ongoing review. Could you provide us any more details about that review, the extent of it, when you expect it to report, and potential alterations that could be made, so that we do make sure that the Welsh Government procurement procedures are as watertight as possible?

Well, Llywydd, the review is well under way. I expect it to conclude during this calendar year, as well as the work that is being carried out inside the Welsh Government on the review. It will be overseen by a stakeholder group, which will have a significant impact on it, and that stakeholder group will include those organisations that are the major users of the National Procurement Service. But I also fully expect that the review will take into account the Wales Audit Office reports into public procurement and the National Procurement Service, and I welcome as well the Public Accounts Committee's inquiry into procurement in Wales. And I, again, expect that the conclusions that that inquiry comes to will be part of the material that the review will draw on in coming to its conclusions.

UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

I fully endorse what the Cabinet Secretary earlier on said in criticism of the UK Government and the confusion that seems to reign in the Cabinet on its Brexit policy, largely due to the activities of diehard remainers like the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who seems to be regularly trying to undermine the whole process. But, of course, the Welsh Government could assist in getting the best possible outcome from these Brexit negotiations if it was prepared to recognise that the best way to avoid a 'no deal' is to prepare for it, and to make it clear that we can cope with the consequences. The Cabinet Secretary will be well aware of the report of the external affairs committee published recently, which made a number of recommendations. In particular, it said that Wales needs

'a stronger steer from the Welsh Government about how they should be preparing for Brexit' and that sectors and organisations are looking to the Welsh Government for leadership, and it's imperative they're able to start making their own plans for life outside the EU. This has been expressed in as non-partisan a way as possible. And I'm trying to do that myself in this question—to encourage and urge the Welsh Government to take an optimistic view of the outcome beyond Brexit. Even if there is no deal, there are opportunities there, as well as challenges, and those should be pointed up rather than constantly harping upon about the negatives. 

Well, Llywydd, even in trying to respond to the tone in which that question was raised, I can't avoid saying to the Member that I fundamentally disagree with what he has said. A 'no deal' outcome from Brexit will be catastrophic for Wales, and there is no preparation for no deal. And one of the reasons that I always say that is that it's really important to resist the notion that no deal is just simply one other eventuality that you can prepare for. The normalisation of no deal is in nobody's best interest here in Wales. So, the Welsh Government will continue to prepare for all the different possible outcomes of negotiation. Whenever I speak to UK Ministers, they absolutely emphasise to me that no deal is not what they are seeking to bring about, and I fully support them in that ambition. 

Well, the Cabinet Secretary knows that the British Government is doing its best to achieve a deal with the EU. The only people who are playing hard to get in this are the European Commission themselves. This is an essential part of Monsieur Barnier's negotiating strategy, and the kind of response that the Cabinet Secretary has just given to me is music to the ears of Michel Barnier. That's exactly what he's looking for people in this country to say—to indicate that, therefore, the pressure will be on to do what the EU wants rather than what the British Government wants. Yes, of course, we want a free trade deal with the EU; we would be mad not to and everybody with any common sense is pressing towards that. But constantly saying, 'What the EU wants out of this' is not going to help us in our negotiating position. So, I urge the Cabinet Secretary, yet again, on behalf of the Welsh Government, not just to concentrate on the negatives that will happen if there is no deal, because if there is no deal, that won't be because of the efforts of the British Government, it will be because the EU has put its own political priorities before economic common sense.

Llywydd, I've lost count of the number of times in the Chamber that I've heard the Member assure us that a deal would be the easiest thing in the world to bring off because German car manufacturers and everybody else in the European Union would be so desperate to do a deal that it would be brought off with hardly any effort at all. I find it very difficult to square his views in that regard with his suggestion this afternoon that somehow the Commission is hell-bent on not reaching a deal. We won't get a deal if we regard the Commission and the European Union as somehow our enemies in all of this. There is a shared interest in getting a deal, and getting the best deal, and the Welsh Government has set out what we believe the best deal would be. And simply assuming that we are pitched against one another, in which a good outcome for one is a bad outcome for the other, is not, I believe, the way in which the best interests of Wales will be secured. 

The Cabinet Secretary knows that I don't see this as a zero-sum game where Britain benefits at the expense of the EU. I've always made it clear that a free trade deal is in the interests of both parties, and actually, is much more in the interests of the EU, in a sense, than it is to the UK because we have a massive deficit of about £80 billion a year in trade with the EU. And as regards German car manufacturers, we have a deficit on trade of €36 billion with Germany. Of course, it's massively in the interest of German car manufacturers for us to do a deal with them, because we buy one in seven of all the passenger cars that are manufactured in Germany. But if the Cabinet Secretary persists in saying 'Oh, well, we need to give in to everything that the EU demands of us in order to get a free trade deal', that is the best way to ensure that we don't get one. 

Well, I reject the language of giving in and the approach that the Member suggests. The Welsh Government has articulated the sort of deal that we believe is in the best interests of people and businesses in Wales: a deal in which we have full and unfettered access to the single market, in which we will remain in a customs union, in which Welsh businesses, Welsh public services and Welsh research institutions are able to go on recruiting people who we've been lucky enough to attract to come and make their futures here in Wales, in which Welsh citizens continue to enjoy the protections that they have gained through the European Union, as citizens, as workers, as consumers, and in human rights too. There is a positive view of the sort of deal that we need with the European Union, which we believe, the other side of the European Union, would allow Welsh businesses and Welsh jobs to go on thriving. That's the sort of language that I think best assists us in trying to make an influence on the UK Government and on the Commission in the conduct of these very, very important negotiations.