6. Debate on the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee report: UK governance post Brexit

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 3:25 pm on 28 February 2018.

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Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 3:25, 28 February 2018

The current inter-governmental relations are governed through the JMC—the Joint Ministerial Committee. We heard how the JMC needs to improve the way it functions, with some witnesses calling for a complete overhaul. We agreed with those who told us that there is a need to strengthen inter-governmental relations, not just between Wales and England, but as part of a four-nation approach, where each nation is treated with parity. Successive UK Governments have not sufficiently renewed the machinery of Government to respond to the changed relationships between Governments after devolution. This has left serious question marks about how the JMC will deal fairly with the emerging challenges as the UK leaves the EU. So, the need for fundamental reform is clear and pressing. In our view, the best option would be to adopt a completely new approach to inter-government relations in order to provide the institutional strength and durability needed to face the challenges ahead.

The First Minister’s proposal for a UK council of Ministers to replace the JMC has considerable merit to it and would address many of the concerns we heard in evidence. In effect, it would be a forum of national Governments working collectively in the best interests of the United Kingdom. It would provide the shift required to ensure we have proper shared governance, including over areas that have been co-ordinated at a European level. We therefore considered the First Minister’s proposals to be the most coherent long-term solution to resolving concerns about inter-governmental relations. However, an essential and pragmatic first step would be to strengthen the existing JMC structure, and that was our first recommendation. We believe that this could be achieved by ensuring that JMC plenary fulfils the functions of an annual heads of Government summit and by adding new committees to the existing JMC format to cover the single market and trade, and, in particular, to agree on common frameworks.

Our second recommendation again reflected the views of parliamentary committees by placing inter-governmental relations on a statutory footing. This could be achieved by, for example, amending the UK Government's EU withdrawal Bill, currently in the House of Lords. In the longer term, post-Brexit, we recommended that the JMC should be subject to fundamental reform so that it becomes a UK council that is a decision-making body with an independent dispute resolution, arbitration and adjudication mechanism. Alongside these changes, we believe the memorandum of understanding between the UK and devolved Governments—including the devolution guidance notes—should be subject to a thorough overhaul involving collaboration between all Governments of the UK. This should aim to establish shared governance around the machinery that supports the delivery of effective and fair inter-governmental relations.

This brings me to another issue that is absolutely fundamental to effective inter-governmental relations, namely the understanding of devolution by civil servants in Whitehall. Numerous witnesses pointed out the poor knowledge and understanding of devolution that exists in parts of Whitehall, despite some laudable efforts to remedy the situation by successive administrations. We believe that it is unacceptable that the level of understanding of devolution across Whitehall is often poor, that understanding of Welsh devolution is particularly poor in certain key departments, and that attempts to remedy this have been inadequate. The approach of Whitehall civil servants was perhaps best captured by one witness who told us: 

'I should say that I’ve never thought that there was a sort of malevolent reason to ignore Scotland and Wales. I think it was just more of a benign neglect.'

This approach to devolution may stem from the conflict that currently exists within the existing constitution of the UK, where the UK civil service in effect supports the UK Government in its role as the executive for the UK and England. Certainly, we felt that internal Whitehall civil service apparatus supporting devolution as described to us is complex and muddled. It is a matter we intend to take up further with the UK Government in due course.

The same rationale applies for improving inter-governmental relationships and applies to the engagement between the Parliaments that form an integral part of our constitutional machinery. It is clear that there is a need to extend the engagement between committees and between Parliaments. If these parts of our democratic institutions work better together, then there is a better chance that the voice of Wales will be heard across the UK, our collective views acted upon and the fabric of the UK constitution strengthened.

In looking to see how this need for greater, formalised co-operation could be taken forward, we recommend that the Llywydd should seek to establish, with the other Speakers and Presiding Officers of the UK legislatures, a Speakers' conference. Its aim would be to determine how best to develop UK inter-parliamentary working, with a particular regard to scrutinising the impact of withdrawal from the EU on the constitutional framework of the UK. We therefore consider the main role for such a Speakers’ conference to be in relation to developing a framework for inter-parliamentary relations. There will be clear benefits to having a cohesive and structured forum for joint discussion between Parliaments undertaking scrutiny, where information can be shared and respective Governments can be held to account. However, we also see merit in the Speakers’ conference having a role in relation to inter-governmental relations, to assess how they are developing at this crucial period in the evolution of the constitution of the UK. And this should include assessing, in particular, the UK Government’s response to the first four recommendations of this report that I've set out.

This is a radical initiative to support sustainable constitutional reform and it is not without precedent. It is a way of bringing the nations of the UK together and kick-starting the process of post-Brexit constitutional reform that we consider essential to the future hegemony of the United Kingdom. There have already been positive moves to improve parliamentary co-operation. In this Assembly, we have forged important relationships with committees in the House of Commons, the House of Lords and the Scottish Parliament. In addition, the creation of the Interparliamentary Forum on Brexit, which I attend with David Rees, has been a very positive and constructive development. We believe it has the potential to be a valuable precursor to the strengthened parliamentary relationships and structure that will be essential within the UK once it has left the European Union.

Whatever inter-governmental changes or adaptations emerge in the future, it will be important for the National Assembly to continue to hold the Welsh Government to account, and it is our view that the approach adopted in Scotland between its Parliament and Government provides a sensible model that could be adopted in Wales. On that basis, we recommend that the Welsh Government enters into an inter-governmental relations agreement with the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee to support the scrutiny of Welsh Government activity in this area.

As our report demonstrates, the UK’s constitutional arrangements are likely to be put under considerable pressure over the next decade. The UK will have to adapt its internal arrangements to ensure that a consequence of leaving the EU is not a greater centralisation of power in London. New inter-governmental structures will have to be in put place. And it makes no sense to suggest that the structures we have in the UK now, while part of the EU, should be the same after we have left the EU.

The Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, in constructive collaboration with other parliamentary committees across the UK, is playing an active role in helping to shape a constitutional framework fit for the new challenges we face, and in so doing will help strengthen the voice of Wales in the family of nations that make up the United Kingdom.