2. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the effect of the end of free-to-air coverage of regional rugby from next season? 151

The Welsh Government recognises that this is a commercial decision, but the Government is deeply concerned about this decision that there will be no free-to-air television coverage of regional rugby in the English language from next season. We are still awaiting the outcome of further negotiations that affect the S4C coverage in the Welsh language and, of course, the red button that would provide for bilingual coverage for viewers in Wales.

Thank you, Minister, for that answer. At a time when the Llanelli Scarlets are flying high, I want as many people as possible to see their success, but giving the English language rights for regional rugby to pay tv, the Pro14 are embarking on a risky strategy. Even on free-to-air, audiences for regional games have been falling, and by encouraging a new pay tv channel to outbid the BBC and S4C's joint bid the clubs are gambling in order to get an early pay day. For this to work relies on fans to pay £10 a month. But as I understand it, only two television masts in Wales are capable of receiving the new free sports tv: Moel-y-Parc in Flintshire, and Wenvoe near Cardiff, which doesn't reach Llanelli.

Would the Minister discuss with Premier Sports how fans across Wales will be able to view the new games next season? I am very concerned about the viability of this bid, not least because the chief executive officer of Premier Sport, Mickey O'Rourke, was the CEO of Setanta Sports, which previously failed. You only have to Google Setanta to know it failed because it didn't have a viable business model. The Minister mentions there's still a hope that S4C will get the rights to show some games, but only some games.

Pro14's approach has deliberately broken up the successful partnership between the BBC and S4C and gone for a small and unknown alternative for an unknown amount of money, but from what I hear, it's not a huge difference and I am puzzled as to why they've done it. It will potentially slash the audience for regional rugby, which is already struggling to get audiences, and though broadcasting isn't devolved, the fallout from this decision is. Without Friday and Saturday night rugby, clubs and halls across Wales will suffer. One of BBC Wales's most popular shows, Scrum V, will all but disappear, and new generations of rugby players will not get to see their region play.

So, this is a staggeringly short-sighted decision. Would the Minister meet with Pro14 to discuss what contingency plans they have if this new pay tv channel fails, and encourage them to rethink their decision? Diolch.

As the Member knows—and I'm very grateful to him for expressing his concerns on behalf of the Scarlets and, indeed, all rugby followers in Wales, but it particularly affects his constituency—the Pro14 competition is run by a body called Celtic Rugby UK Limited, which is a private company limited by shares, and it includes among its owners the Irish Rugby Football Union, the Welsh Rugby Union, the Scottish Rugby Union and the Italian Rugby Federation, with a board of directors consisting of two representatives appointed by each union and an independent chairman. So, these people, clearly, should be well aware of the results of their decision, as they discussed the various bids.

Our understanding is that this was a joint bid from BBC Cymru Wales, BBC Northern Ireland, BBC Alba and S4C, and as we know now, the bid has been rejected, but we have not had clear confirmation from Pro14 of precisely what arrangements are to be undertaken by the successful bidder. I will certainly accede to his request that I should have further discussions, both formally, if necessary, but certainly informally, as I will be meeting the characters involved fairly soon again, as I met some of them this morning, and that we will have those discussions so that we can understand the nature of this decision. But also to take up the point that he has made: what provision can be made to ensure that there is damage limitation as a result of this decision in terms of the ability of Welsh viewers to still participate in these essential games? That may well be in the form of the kind of discussions I understand may be going ahead between S4C at the moment and the successful bidder, about how many games and what permissions they will have to receive, from them, the opportunity to still broadcast both on air and online.

Well, I agree with Lee Waters; this is a very bizarre decision, certainly on the face of it. While there may be some incidental benefit for S4C if it does get some free-to-air viewing, by more viewers switching to S4C just for those games, I don't think that that, in itself, seems to justify the decision that's been made.

You say it's a commercial decision and that's absolutely true, but it's also true to say that Welsh Government has supported the WRU in the past with a range of grants, through strategic regeneration funding, through the community facilities and activities programme and through Sport Wales, of course. So, I think it's entirely right that Welsh Government should ask for some detail about how this decision was made, and very specifically, what arguments WRU put forward to maintain free-to-air coverage on Welsh language television; how hard they pushed that; and, in particular, what effect they think a probably limited viewership is going to have on their sponsorship, because, of course, sponsorship is key to maintaining Pro14, not just the commercial charging. And it strikes me, as I say, on the face of it, that this is an absolutely crazy decision if they're expecting sponsorship in the future.

I'm afraid I can't follow that line of argument. Our relationship with S4C, as Welsh Government, is specifically directed at supporting their activities in developing community rugby. And clearly, there is a close link between the community rugby and the possibility of viewers in Wales being able to follow the Pro14 regional rugby games. I have had meetings recently with the Welsh Rugby Union, both formally and informally, and as a result of this discussion today, which they will have heard, I can assure you that I will pursue all avenues that I can, short of seeking to interfere in a commercial decision. Because we have to make it quite clear that this Government is not in the business of damaging our relationships with bodies that take commercial decisions with which we may disagree.

I'm grateful to my friend Lee Waters for raising this important issue today. As a season-ticket holder at the Dragons, I'm deeply disappointed about this decision to move to pay tv. My love of sport, like many people's, came from watching on free-to-air television. I understand that there's a balance to be struck between using television to promote the game and using television money to pay for professional players, but we have to be mindful of creating a new elitism in which people of all ages who struggle to get to regional games are disproportionately excluded. And there are already examples of this in English and Welsh cricket, and in Irish rugby.

Worryingly, research by Dr Paul Rouse at the university of Dublin gives an example in Ireland of the difference between two Leinster games in the Heineken Cup. The number of women who watched the 2006 Leinster game on national Irish television was 67,000, compared to only 9,000 who tuned in to Sky in 2007. Similarly affected were the over-55s. If the Welsh regions do get more money, as this deal promises, what commitments would the Minister seek from the regions to ensure that they reach a wider audience to make up for the loss of mass exposure on tv, and to guarantee that there's not a two-tier fan base in Welsh regional rugby in the future? And finally, what opportunities does the Minister think exist to boost Welsh premiership rugby exposure from this decision?

I'm very grateful for that further question. It will be clear to those following this exchange that there is no support in this Chamber for the decision that has been taken in terms of the awarding of this particular opportunity to broadcast. It is significantly important, as you pointed out from your own experience, that there should be an opportunity for people to openly follow the coverage of significant sporting events, which leads to participation, recruitment of supporters who offer their lifelong support to rugby, as many of us do here to rugby—and indeed to football—in Wales. Therefore, it is imperative that we should, as a Government, continue to discuss with the sporting organisations that, as was already raised, we in fact do support. These questions that are being raised today are ones that I will personally—I give you this undertaking—that I will personally raise, not only with the WRU, and therefore through them with the Pro14, but also: what are the consequences, both for community rugby and for the premiership? This is certainly something that we would want to explore as a Government, and I give you the undertaking that you seek.

I thank the Minister, and the final topical question, therefore, is from David Melding.