So, I want to reiterate, really, many of the points that have been made here by my colleagues today. But, in particular, two weeks ago—I think it was about two weeks ago—David Ramsbotham, the former chief inspector of prisons, talked about this issue on Sunday Supplement. I believe David Rees was on the same programme. His remarks, unfortunately, were misinterpreted by the media, and they were reported as saying it was a call for a women’s prison here in Wales, which is exactly the opposite of what he said. Certainly, the last thing that we want is a women's prison here in Wales, because there's absolutely no doubt that the number of women who are at such a risk to the public that they need to be locked up, with all the consequent trauma to their families, is just not sufficient to justify a women's prison in Wales. In fact, the number that are actually a risk to society is probably one or two.

So, I think it is absolutely essential that we move away from this misconception that having a women's prison here in Wales would be a good thing for women, because as far as I'm concerned, it would set back the cause of penal reform hugely were we to have a women's prison here in Wales, and would certainly have to be filled up with women from England in a way that would mean that they wouldn't be able to have any chance of having close family links. What David Ramsbotham was actually calling for was women’s centres, which have been mentioned here by a number of contributors today. We've never had one of this particular type of women's centre here in Wales, but there have been a number in England. They have been evaluated, they do appear to work, and evidence-based policy development would mean that we would develop these women's centres in Wales. I would like to see the opportunity for that to happen. 

It’s worth restating that, in fact, women make up only 5 per cent of the overall prison population, and the vast majority only serve very short sentences. The issue of women prisoners is a graspable policy. The numbers are not so great that you struggle to make a change. It is possible to change the policy for women prisoners, and many of the issues that apply to women prisoners also apply to male prisoners. I think if we could make the move with women's prisons, that would lead us on to do the same with male prisons, because I do want to reiterate the fact of the mental health issues, because I think that is so important. We know that the vast majority of prisoners do have mental health issues that have got to be addressed.  

I think we have to go back to the effect on children. We've been told by Jenny Rathbone about the thousands of children—I know the Prison Reform Trust have put forward a figure of thousands of children who are affected by custodial sentences—and 95 per cent of them have to leave their homes if their mother's imprisonment leaves them without an adult to take care of them. So, there is huge disruption to family life. I don't think we can reiterate that enough. 

The evidence as far as I'm concerned on women's centres is clear and compelling. They're important for maintaining family links, we know that the reoffending rate is lower, and, in fact, they cost less than the very expensive option of building prisons. So, I hope that we will get criminal justice devolved to Wales. It was recommended in the Silk report, and we haven't seen much sign of it happening since then, but I think it is something that we could tackle and where we could make a real change.

Jenny mentioned the Visiting Mum project, and I just want to briefly end by saying that I took part in one of the visits to Eastwood Park. I went with the Visiting Mum volunteers who take the children to Eastwood Park, and I can't tell you how heartbreaking it was actually to see those children being reunited with their mothers in a room that wasn't like a prison, where they had toys, where they had food, where every effort was made by the project to ensure that there were two hours when they could have a normal relationship with their mother. But seeing that, I thought that, really, nothing can justify this. When you saw the reasons why those women were in prison, it is just not justified them being there.