Item 7 on our agenda this afternoon is the debate on the petition 'Calling on the Welsh Government to ban the use of wild animals in circuses in Wales', and I call on David Rowlands to move the motion.

Motion NDM6677 David J. Rowlands

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the petition ‘P-05-796 Calling on the Welsh Goverment to Ban The Use of Wild Animals in Circuses in Wales’, which received 6,398 signatures.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm pleased to open this debate on the petition 'Calling on the Welsh Government to ban the use of wild animals in circuses in Wales'. I want to begin by paying tribute to the petitioner, Linda Joyce Jones, whose passion and dedication to this issue and to animal welfare in general has been clear for the committee to see. Members of the Petitions Committee and, indeed, a number of other Members witnessed this first-hand when Linda and her supporters came to the Senedd to hand over her petition during January.

I would like to formally thank Linda for bringing the petition forward and for prompting the Assembly to consider this important issue. The petition collected a total of 6,398 signatures. Those signatures were collected online and on paper and from across Wales and further afield. Clearly, this is an issue that concerns many people in Wales who object to wild animals being used for the purpose of entertainment in this way. Of course, the use of wild animals in circuses has received considerable public attention over a number of years. In fact, the Petitions Committee in the fourth Assembly considered a petition on this issue from RSPCA Cymru, and I know that some Members here today were involved in that work at that time.

In response to that petition, the then Deputy Minister for Farming and Food, Rebecca Evans, announced an independent review of the evidence on the welfare of animals in travelling and non-travelling circuses. The resulting report was published in January 2016 and it concluded that the scientific evidence indicates that captive wild animals in travelling circuses do not achieve their optimal welfare requirements set out under the Animal Welfare Act 2009. It also stated that life for wild animals in travelling circuses and mobile zoos does not constitute either a good life or a life worth living. These findings paint a strong picture and it is right that they should lead to serious consideration of whether travelling circuses should continue to use wild animals in the future.

However, further to this work, the Welsh Government chose not to move forward with a ban on circuses using wild animals. Instead, at the end of 2016, the Welsh Government announced that it intended to develop a licensing system for all so-called mobile animal exhibits, including circuses featuring wild animals, but also a variety of activities such as animals visiting schools and winter reindeer parades. 

Then, last year, the Welsh Government ran a public consultation on the feasibility of introducing such a licensing system. This consultation also sought views on whether the use of wild animals in circuses should be banned. Following the consultation, the Welsh Government also did not commit to a ban, though its report acknowledged that the majority of respondents believed that the use of wild animals in circuses should be banned and that wild animals cannot be cared for appropriately whilst in a travelling environment.

The petitioner has explained that the current petition arose in response to this decision not to proceed with a ban. In her written evidence to the committee, the petitioner outlined the situation with circuses visiting Wales. She named three companies that have visited Wales in recent years, and shared concerns about the ability of local authorities and others to inspect the conditions that animals are kept in when circuses are in their area. She also noted that a licensing system for travelling circuses that use wild animals has operated in England since 2012. She believes that licensing documents demonstrate that this model fails the animals, and that companies have breached the conditions of their licences on a number of occasions, and have suffered suspensions as a result.

The petitioner raised further concerns and these include the conditions that animals are often kept in, particularly when travelling, and the availability of vets experienced in the care of exotic animals, such as camels, lions and tigers—understandably, this is rather a niche speciality in Wales. Her conclusion is that the independent report from 2016 and the result of last year's public consultation give the Welsh Government the scientific evidence and public support to introduce a ban. She also told us that a ban on this practice is now either in place or planned in around 35 other countries, including Scotland and the Republic of Ireland. Most recently, the UK Government also appeared to indicate that it was giving greater consideration to ending this practice.

In response to an initial letter from the Petitions Committee, the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs stated that she had

'not dismissed the possibility of working with the UK Government to bring in a joint ban on the use of wild animals in circuses.'

As Members will be aware, subsequently, the Cabinet Secretary issued a written statement on 14 February, which announced that the Welsh Government is now exploring opportunities to bring forward legislation to ban the use of wild animals in circuses. These proposals appear to be at an early stage and, as yet, limited information about the scope and future timescales is available. The committee hopes that the Cabinet Secretary will be able to provide further detail about her thinking and intentions during her reply to this afternoon's debate.

I would like to note here that the RSPCA recommends using the powers under section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 as a method of effecting a ban. This was used successfully in 2010 to bring about a ban on electric-shock collars, and a similar method was used by the Irish Government to effect a ban on circuses in the Republic of Ireland. It also has the added advantage of saving on the cost of allocating valuable Government time in bringing forward new legislation. 

Nevertheless, I understand that the announcement has been welcomed by Linda Jones and the signatories to her petition. Whilst this is not yet the end of the story, and I am sure that further views will continue to be aired, I believe that it is right that we recognise the significant steps that have already been achieved by Linda and other members of the campaign. I also believe that this is an illustration of the potential power of petitions, and of the strength of the processes that exist at this Assembly for members of the public to highlight issues to this Assembly and to Ministers. I am sure that this debate will be of great interest to those people who have taken the time to petition us about this issue and I look forward to listening to Members' contributions this afternoon. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Thank you. I have a significant number of Members and so, therefore, I am strictly going to apply the time limits. So, when the clock goes red, don't smile at me, because I'm going to call the next speaker. [Laughter.] Paul Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm delighted to add my name to those Members that, for some time, have been calling for the use of wild animals in travelling circuses to be banned in Wales. I think most people across Wales believe that the practice is outdated, unnecessary and puts the welfare of animals travelling as part of a circus at risk and, therefore, I'm not surprised at the level of public interest in this particular issue. As we've heard, the petition before us gathered over 6,000 signatures, and I think that gives us a snapshot of the strength of feeling on this issue.

However, let us remember that this is not a new campaign. Indeed, it's one that has sadly taken us far too long to reach this critical point, and whilst I welcome the Welsh Government's commitment to finally delivering a ban on the use of wild animals in circuses, it's disappointing to see that Wales has not chosen to tackle this issue before now. Indeed, it seems to me the whole issue surrounding the use of wild animals in circuses has been de-prioritised and considered as a secondary issue, as part of a wider review to look at ways of registering and licensing mobile animal exhibits more widely. Let us remember that the Welsh Government's recent mobile animal exhibits consultation, referred to earlier, asked only one question on the use of wild animals in circuses, and yet we know from the summary of responses to that consultation that almost 900 responses were received on that question alone, which demonstrates the strength of feeling on this matter. Therefore—

Will the Member give way?

Therefore, it would have been entirely appropriate for the Welsh Government to consider this issue on its own, as originally considered by a former Minister for environment, farming and rural affairs, rather than making it part of a wider consultation on mobile animal exhibits. And I will give way to the Member for Mid and West Wales.

I'm very grateful to him for giving way. I support what he's saying, of course, but does he share my concern that that consultation on the wider question was actually allowed to be dominated by external consultants, if you like, who brought their own agenda, rather than settling this question, which is the one the public in Wales are interested in?

Absolutely, that's why, obviously, this particular issue should have been looked at independently of those other issues.

Whilst I want to see a ban on the use of wild animals in circuses, there are still several questions that need to be asked following the Welsh Government's recent statement confirming a ban, and so, perhaps in responding to this debate, the Cabinet Secretary will be able to provide some clarity on a few details. For example, is this ban being implemented on the grounds that there are concerns surrounding the welfare of the animals travelling? Or is it being implemented on the grounds that these animals are made to perform? If the intention is to ban the use of wild animals in circuses based on the welfare of the animals travelling, then will the Welsh Government be looking to extend this ban to other travelling animals, such as livestock attending markets and shows? However, if the ban is being implemented because the animals in these circuses are made to perform, then there is a question on how far this ban could go. As the Chair of the Petitions Committee said, does this include bird displays or reindeer parades, for example? Clarity on these issues is needed to confirm exactly what the rationale for this ban is, so that the public can categorically understand the Welsh Government's intentions.

Now, as I've said before, I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has finally decided to commit to implementing a ban, and I sincerely hope, as this agenda progresses, the Cabinet Secretary will be looking at existing legislation across the UK, such as the Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (Scotland) Act 2018, which prohibits wild animal performance, display and exhibition in travelling circuses, to ensure that any legislation that is brought forward is as robust as possible. Therefore, I would also be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could tell us what the Welsh Government has already done in analysing the measures taken by other countries on this issue, and perhaps she would commit to publishing a statement on the work that has been done so far, so that we can follow the Welsh Government's direction of travel.

Of course, there may be some scope for the Welsh Government to work with the UK Government to deliver a joint ban, and I understand that, in the past, Welsh Government officials have met with their counterparts in DEFRA to discuss this very issue. Perhaps the Cabinet Secretary, in her response today, could therefore confirm whether the Welsh Government is still considering the possibility of a joint ban with the UK Government? And could she also tell us what discussions have taken place recently between her and her officials on this specific issue?

Finally, I'm also keen to hear what plans the Welsh Government has to enforce the ban here in Wales, as the ban will only be as successful as its enforcement. As a result of introducing a ban, will the Welsh Government devolve enforcement powers down to local authorities, so that they can perform inspections or spot checks on any travelling circuses? If so, is the Welsh Government confident that local authorities in Wales have the resources to carry out these additional functions? These are the sorts of questions that now need to be asked, and so I hope the Welsh Government will now provide some more information and clarity on how they will implement a ban, and what that will mean in practice, moving forward. 

In closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, as I said at the start of my contribution, I am pleased to see the Welsh Government move ahead with this agenda, because it's something that all sides of the Chamber have been keen to see for several years now, and because the public have made it very clear that they want to see a ban. It's important, therefore, that the Welsh Government now comes forward with more detailed information regarding this ban, so that the public can be confident that the Welsh Government is serious about tackling this issue, and that it is doing so in a way that is effective and efficient. Thank you.

This is an issue that is close to my heart. I've tried to make an effort in my time here in the Assembly, and particularly over the last year or two, in drawing attention to these issues. This is in part because, just as it is close to my heart, it's also close to the heart of the vast majority of people in this country. How we treat animals is a reflection of who we are as a society and as a country, and although many people sometimes claim that there are other more pressing things the Government should focus on, I think it's important that we focus on vulnerable animals, and how we demonstrate that we are supportive of protecting them.

But we are making a stronger focus on this issue because of the work of campaigners and the public, and this petition should be congratulated as another example of the people of Wales showing their dedication and resolve to try and provide answers and input into some of these questions and bring pressure on us here too. I would like to thank my colleague Siân Gwenllian, also, who has been working diligently with some of the petitioners here today, namely Linda, who has been e-mailing us on a regular basis to raise this as an important issue in the Assembly.

The issue of circuses is one that, to my mind, isn't that complicated. As the petition notes, 74 per cent of the public have demonstrated via polls that they are against wild animals in circuses. They rightly recognise that circuses featuring wild animals are outdated and are harmful. Twenty-five countries have already banned the use of live animals in circuses, and we've already heard about bans in Scotland and elsewhere in Europe. What concerns me, however, is the slow nature of progress on this issue in Wales. I don't want to go through the timelines that have already been outlined by the Chair of the committee, but now I understand that the formal line from the Welsh Government is still—and I quote:

'I am exploring opportunities to bring forward legislation to ban the use of wild animals in circuses in Wales.'

Any more exploring of opportunities and I worry that the Cabinet Secretary is going to get lost. I understand that we have a duty to get legislation right the first time, here in Wales, and I appreciate that the public would expect this and that the Government wants to ensure that that is the case, but it's not as though we are pushing for a particularly untried and unique path on circuses, because other countries have already banned this. Wales risks being left behind the curve. There is a chance that, while we are in limbo, circus operators could apply and get a licence here in Wales. Already, we know that, in 2015, a circus operator was denied a licence elsewhere in the UK, but managed to conduct a circus tour in Wales, which, in my view, could be very harmful. I've also been told today—earlier—by campaigners that the same operator is planning another tour, is unlikely to get a licence in England, and will likely attempt to obtain a licence in Wales soon. If that was to happen, it would be an embarrassing failure, in my view, directly tied to our lack of policy speed in recent years.

We are clearly seeing a huge movement of sentiment and opinion on animal welfare. I've raised the issue of an animal abuse register many times, and campaigners have delivered almost 0.75 million signatures on that particular aspect of this debate alone. I've been critical of the Welsh Government on this agenda, but I'm pleased to see, on this particular issue, that the Welsh Government doesn't reject campaigns on any of these issues out of hand, and that the Cabinet Secretary does make her preferences clear.

I'm also pleased that there is at least movement on the questions surrounding animal welfare and some actions on a range of them, but I am concerned, as are campaigners, that the movement is too slow. We really need a timeline now as to when this ban will come into place so that Wales can, again, lead the agenda. As with many of the debates we've had this afternoon, let Wales be put on the map. Let Wales show the way and make sure that animals are protected here, in Wales, as they are in other parts of the world. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

You know when an animal circus is in town because they fly-post across the community in which you live. You can't miss it. In fact, I know of a council officer who used to fill the boot of his car with the fly-posted posters that he used to tear down. But, as soon as they're torn down, they're put back up again by these animal circuses. I've noticed that that actual reference was made by Linda Joyce Jones in the petition. These people do not care about local bye-laws; it takes a national law to make a change.

It was a cold and dark night, a rainy night, in October or November 2015, when I was invited by a constituent, who I'm pleased to see is in the gallery today, to attend a protest against an animal exhibition called 'An Evening with Lions and Tigers', which was in my council ward—the area that I represented as a councillor. We were really pleased to see the number of people who turned out for the protest night after night, in the dark and in the rain, turning away people—well, they didn't actually physically turn them away, but they were persuading people not to enter the show. It was reasoned argument that these people made. They had banners and they had petitions, and they had very clear literature explaining why they felt that the evening with lions and tigers was a cruel show and one that should not be visited. We were pleased to see car after car leaving Tir-y-Berth, and leaving Hengoed, when we made these points. Therefore, I'm delighted to support this petition today. One of the things that that show didn't get was a licence from DEFRA to operate in England, and that's represented in the petition, yet they were able to operate in Wales. Therefore, it's time that the Welsh Government took action.

I've read the Dorning, Harris and Pickett report, and it highlights a lot of the things that have already been covered by Members. The fact that also needs to be said is that legislation has been addressed in other parts of the United Kingdom, and therefore the Welsh Government needs to take action. My predecessor, Jeff Cuthbert, raised this with the then Minister, and had some sway in getting the Harris report commissioned, but now is the time to take this to a stage of legislation to prevent these circuses from touring Wales and causing harm to the animals that are exhibited there.

Firstly, I would like to thank all of those people who signed the petition and submitted the petition on behalf of animals that have no way themselves of ending the suffering that profiteering circus owners impose on them. I would urge the Welsh Government to take action in light of the petition and the 74 per cent of the Welsh public who want a full ban on wild animals being used in circuses, and go ahead with the ban.

In 2016 the Welsh Government said that they'd look into a licensing system, and that really worries me, and I very much hope that the Cabinet Secretary has had a change of mind on this. Because a licensing system has operated for some time and yet operators have been found to be in breach of the licence. The point is that animal suffering has still taken place, and no penalty after the event can turn back time and prevent the ill treatment from having happened in the first place. And, when we look at the effectiveness of licensing in Wales, we can see that introducing it for circuses would be entirely useless. When this Government introduced licencing for puppy farms, they delegated responsibility for its enforcement to local authorities. Councils up and down Wales that were already too cash-strapped to do anything meaningful were asked to make sure that licences were and are being adhered to. The problem of atrocious conditions in puppy farms continues virtually unchanged. This isn’t the fault of the local authorities; they have limited budgets. It's the fault of a weak decision by Welsh Government.

Licensing is only as good as its enforcement, and, on that basis, rather than preventing animal cruelty, licensing merely regulates misery. There is a general principle at stake here: how do we see the role of animals in our day-to-day lives? Are they here for our amusement and entertainment? If not, how can anyone suggest any form of licensing? Licencing a circus to keep wild animals purely for entertainment is basically saying that there's a level of misery you think is justifiable for an animal to suffer so that the rest of us can be entertained, and I find that abhorrent.

In conclusion, I would like to reiterate my full support for the petition and the motion, but ask that the Government actually looks to implement a full ban on wild animals in circuses, not mere licensing, so that we can send the signal out that there is no level of animal suffering that is acceptable for our entertainment. Thank you.

As a child in the early 1960s I regularly visited circuses, as did most kids, and there was a certain irony at the time because then you used to get circuses sponsored by companies such as Brooke Bond and other companies like that, and of course they would all give out to you the cards you used to get with packets of tea, which were cards of wildlife, and you'd go to the circus and you'd have the irony of going to see the caged animals and at the same time be given these wonderful card collections of the wonders of wildlife animals. I just mention that because it's an indication as to how far we actually have come in taking more seriously the respect for wild animals and for wildlife.

I'm supportive of this motion, and I'm supportive of legislation. As part of the consultation, when it took place I did my own consultation on my Facebook site and I had 71 members of the public complete the Facebook survey. That's a relatively small number, but it's still a significant number, and indicated there was overwhelming support for the Welsh Government's proposals, with 70 people—that's over 98 per cent—agreeing with the Welsh Government's proposed ban on the use of wild animals in circuses. We also asked, 'Do you agree with the Welsh Government's proposals to introduce a licensing scheme for mobile animal exhibits such as travelling falconry and exotic pets taken into schools?' Over 95 per cent agreed. 

One other comment, though, that was made, was that people almost overwhelmingly expressed a view on animal welfare—the regret that fox hunting wasn't devolved to the Welsh Assembly because of the need to actually have stronger legislation also in respect of the ban and ending of that, the cruelty. I think we have to see it within that context in terms of the welfare of all wildlife and all animals.

But, that having been said, I am supportive, and I'm glad this debate has come forward. I do hope that we will take action, because the way in which we treat wild animals and wildlife generally is an indication, I think, of the quality of civilisation and of the society we live in.

I'd like to reiterate a lot of what has been said already, and to thank Linda and the many people who signed the petition: 6,398. It certainly does make the work of the Petitions Committee very relevant when such an issue with such engagement from the public has taken place.

In 2015, the then Deputy Minister for Farming and Food stated that the Welsh Government were considering whether it would be appropriate to act alone in banning the use of wild animals in live circus performances. Here we are, three years later, and we remain with no current legal barriers to prohibit the use of wild animals in circuses in Wales. This debate, therefore, is exceptionally important and I do commend all who have signed.

The case for a ban has been well documented and evidenced over a number of years—a YouGov poll showing that 74 per cent of the public in Wales support the ban. We know that the complex and unique needs of wild animals simply cannot be met by any circus. Crucially, the Welsh Government's own review by Professor Harris backs this up, stating that scientific evidence indicates that captive wild animals in travelling circuses:

'do not achieve their optimal welfare requirements, as set out under the Animal Welfare Act 2006'.

Further stating that:

'Life for wild animals in travelling circuses and mobile zoos does not...constitute either a "good life" or a "life worth living".'

In 2016, the Secretary for environment and rural affairs stated that the Welsh Government was working towards a licensing system and has now pledged to bring forward a public consultation on mobile animal exhibits. Well, right now, I'm here today about the principle of banning wild animals in circuses. That is a separate issue, the mobile animal exhibits. The competency to bring in a ban under primary legislation has been under the Welsh Government's ability since the 2011 referendum, yet this power has not been used yet. I ask the Cabinet Secretary: you have this power, you have the legislation—please, for the animals, and also for all those who feel so strongly on this, please use that power. 

Given how far behind we are now from other legislatures in places like Bolivia, Bosnia, Paraguay, Peru, Costa Rica and Croatia, as well as, closer to home, Scotland and the Republic of Ireland, it is clear that the time has come. The RSPCA have highlighted the potential to use section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act rather than primary legislation to allow for the Welsh Government to easily make the regulations to bring in a ban with immediate effect, saving parliamentary time, resources, and possibly some animals. 

I would be interested to know what consideration Welsh Government has made of using these powers in this regard. We know that this method has been used in 2010 to introduce a ban on the use of electronic shock collars on dogs and cats in Wales, and more recently by the Irish Government to bring in a circus ban in the Republic of Ireland. If it's good enough for them, it has to be good enough for Wales.

Evidence provided by the petitioner noted concerns about injuries sustained by wild animals within a circus environment, notably detailing an injury to the rear leg of a lion in a circus near Carmarthen and the open and weeping sores on the legs of a baby young camel. Cabinet Secretary, these are clear animal welfare issues. The evidence is there, backed up by your own Government. The support is there. We know a majority of people in Wales support a ban and we have had this in our manifesto—the Welsh Conservatives—for many years. Please confirm today that you will in fact implement a ban. 

Finally, a huge thank you to Linda Joyce Jones, because she is not a politician, she's just one very determined lady. When Bethan said earlier about how she's written to you, she hasn't just written, she has pestered us, and she has done it in a lovely way, and I thank her for pestering us, because she hasn't let this go for a moment. If she hasn't got us through letter, through e-mail, through phone, she's got us on social media. She has done what you as a politician now could actually finish—the end result of this. Don't just make Linda happy, make us as Assembly Members, make our constituents, make our visitors, but, most of all, make those animals happy. No more wild animals in circuses. Thank you.

As Chair of the Finance Committee, it’s not often that I am lobbied on issues of animal welfare, but that’s what happened to me when I and the Finance Committee visited Anglesey. The petitioner, Linda Joyce Jones, ensured that she crossed the Menai strait in order to speak directly with the Finance Committee on these very issues.

But I’m speaking today as the Plaid Cymru spokesperson on animal welfare issues, stating that we too support this petition fully and believe that action should be taken immediately to ban the use of wild animals in circuses, and to do that without clouding the waters, as has been done to date, with the valuable but different consideration of licensing animals in other contexts. Can we focus, therefore, on the matter that we’re considering today, this important petition to ban the use of wild animals in circuses?

Plaid Cymru has campaigned on this for some years. Siân Gwenllian has raised the issue, and Bethan has done so too on a number of occasions and has done so consistently. Because of that, it was in our manifesto for the last Assembly elections. As well as hearing from the petitioner, we have personally received a number of e-mails from constituents who are very concerned about this, and there’s also been strong campaigning by the RSPCA.

I will take advantage of the opportunity not to rehearse what’s already been said, but to say that there’s a broader question of zoos, which we need to consider given recent events in Borth in Ceredigion, and the licensing by local authorities not just of circuses but of zoos. The fact is that the legislation that we’re talking about here is very old—it’s ancient, if truth be told—and is not fit for purpose.

I understand that the Government does have to carefully consider how we can tackle this issue and ban the use of wild animals in circuses, so I’m in a position today to tell the Cabinet Secretary that if you use the approach that I’m going to suggest to do this—to ban the use of wild animals in circuses—then Plaid Cymru, and I make this pledge on behalf of Plaid Cymru, will support this so that we can move ahead immediately with a ban.

So, what I'm about to outline is, of course, using section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006, which allows 'the appropriate national authority', which is the Welsh Ministers—not the Assembly, mind you, it's true; the Ministers—to make regulations

'as the authority thinks fit for the purpose of promoting the welfare of animals for which a person is responsible, or the progeny of such animals.'

Now, the advice that I've received is that it would be perfectly legal, therefore, for the Welsh Government to use section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act to ban wild animals in circuses in Wales. The regulation-making powers would go through the affirmative procedure here in the Assembly, so we would be able to approve or reject them, so the onus would be on the Welsh Government to get them right, of course, but the regulation power also allows for the creation of an offence that is triable on indictment and is punishable by way of imprisonment for no more than 51 weeks or a fine exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.

So, I think both the ability to create this ban and the ability to police the ban at a national level are sufficient and appropriate on the face of the Animal Welfare Act. Yes, ideally, we would prefer to take through an Act of the Welsh Parliament, but we do have other Acts we have to take through in the next 18 months—Brexit being not the least of the concerns that we will have. This is an appropriate narrow power that can be used in this regard. It doesn't allow us to get tied up with the wider considerations about wider licensing engagements.

So, I would very much like to say to the Cabinet Secretary that, if you are minded to use section 12, bring forward those regulations and I promise you Plaid Cymru will do everything in our power to allow those regulations to pass in this Assembly, so we end up as a Parliament banning wild animals in circuses. 

I've lived in my constituency for my whole life, and I'm pleased to say I can't remember the time that there was last a travelling circus with wild animals, because they're certainly not welcome in Cynon Valley. But, despite that fact, I've had a deluge of correspondence from constituents since I've been elected to this place on this very issue of banning the use of wild animals in circuses. And I think what that shows is that there's a great strength of opinion across Wales about this matter. As many Members have already said, the statistics show that three quarters of people in Wales support a ban on the use of wild animals in circuses. 

The briefing that we've all seen from the RSPCA sets out the scientific evidence that demonstrates that life in a circus will, in all likelihood, have harmful effects on animal welfare. It cites the causing of stress and behavioural issues, and the temporary nature of circus housing obviously cannot adequately meet the needs of wild animals. They suffer in unnatural conditions where their physical and mental stimulation needs simply cannot be met. And that’s without factoring in the effects of travelling too. Life for these animals is not worth living. PETA have also highlighted some truly horrific practices in terms of training the wild animals used in these circuses. Moreover, these animals are being kept in these conditions—as other Assembly Members have already noted—purely for our own selfish entertainment. These are points that have been made to me by my constituents, and I believe that they are completely right.

Finally, I want to make the point that this ban is overdue. It is welcome that the Cabinet Secretary is exploring opportunities to bring forward legislation to ban the use of wild animals in circuses in Wales. However, I really do hope that this can be expedited. I agree with Simon Thomas, who said that a ban could be introduced under section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006, or indeed via primary legislation. If we look at Scotland and the Republic of Ireland, they've already introduced these bans. Even the UK Government is apparently supporting such calls. And that’s from a party who went into the last general election supporting relaxing the rules on fox hunting. We used to have a really good reputation in Wales for leading on animal welfare policies. I do hope that the Welsh Government will seize this opportunity to get us back in the forefront of this policy area.

As I close, I just want to mention Ysgol Gyfun Rhydywaun in my constituency, who are taking part in a regional heat for the RSPCA Cymru animal welfare great debate, along with Aberdare Community School. Ysgol Gyfun Rhydywaun will be debating this very topic. I wish both schools good luck. But I want to implore the Welsh Government to take prompt action so wild animals in circuses become just a cruel quirk of our distant past—like bear-baiting and cockfighting—and not something that our Assembly and our schools have to keep on discussing.

I would like to thank the Petitions Committee for their work on this petition, everyone who signed it and RSPCA Cymru for leading on the petition. I fully support the petition, as do nearly three quarters of the Welsh public. The use of wild animals for human pleasure is barbaric and needs to be outlawed as soon as possible.

Thankfully, just two circuses in the UK have wild animal licenses, Circus Mondao and Peter Jolly’s Circus. Between them, they have 19 animals: six reindeer, four zebra, three camels, three racoons, a fox, a macaw and a zebu. In England, wild animals must be licensed but there is no law to stop circuses using certain types of animals. In Wales, there is no licensing requirement. And there is nothing stopping Wales becoming a dumping ground for animal circuses that have been legislated out of other European countries. At the beginning of the year, Ireland became the twentieth EU state to ban the use of wild animals in such a way. It is past time we implemented a similar ban. How can we justify allowing animals being coerced into doing tricks that they wouldn’t do in the wild? How can we justify allowing these majestic creatures to be abused from birth and forced to travel in cramped, unsuitable conditions? And how can we justify allowing animals who should be free to live a life in captivity and to be cast aside or worse still killed once they can no longer entertain the masses?

The UK Government have been promising a ban for many years and now plan to introduce a ban in the next five years. We can’t wait that long. We need to ban the use of wild animals in circuses today. I welcome the Cabinet Secretary’s statement last month in which she said she was exploring opportunities to bring forward legislation to ban the use of wild animals in circuses in Wales. It’s now time to act. RSPCA Cymru have outlined how we can utilise section 12 of the animal welfare Act to introduce such a ban without resorting to new legislation. We used the animal welfare Act to lead the way on banning shock collars. I urge the Cabinet Secretary to use the Act to end the barbaric cruelty that is the coercion of wild animals to perform in circuses. I urge Members not to only support the motion before them today, but to put pressure on the Welsh Government to introduce a ban urgently, as soon as possible. I urge the Welsh public to keep pressing for a ban. Let's ensure that we don't have to wait five years for action from the Welsh Government. Diolch yn fawr.  

I'm delighted to speak in this debate today. I was really pleased last month to see this statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs when she said that she would be exploring ways of bringing a ban forward. Fellow Members know that this is a subject that I feel really strongly about, and I've raised it in Plenary on numerous occasions over the years. I believe that an outright ban on wild animals in circuses is the only way that Wales can show the rest of the world that we too, like Scotland and the Republic of Ireland, do not welcome what is an outdated and cruel form of so-called entertainment. It's a view, as has been said already, shared by three quarters of the population. Well, one thing is certain: it isn't entertainment for the animals. If you read the reports about the cruel conditions—and they've been outlined here today—that, very often, these animals are subjected to, there is no entertainment whatsoever in that for them. Lots of people have mentioned that the RSPCA have contacted all of us, it seems, about using section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 to bring that forward. Simon Thomas has also outlined that that is somewhat limiting, but I would like to see legislation brought in as quickly as possible but also as comprehensively as possible.

I am also concerned about animals like reindeer being used as an attraction for passers-by in city centres and outside church nativity displays, being used to draw people, particularly children, towards their exhibits. I think this is also cruel. I don't think that reindeer are meant to stand for hours on end on concrete yards, and I don't want us to legislate in one area to the detriment of another area is what I'm really saying. I think we really need to look at everything that we can do and do it as comprehensively and as quickly as we can. To coin a phrase, or to misuse another phrase, if we keep to reindeer, reindeer are not just for Christmas; they're supposed to actually have a life.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you very much. I'm very grateful to the Petitions Committee and, of course, to the petitioners for bringing the petition forward first and then obviously for the debate today. Although there are no circuses based in Wales, they of course do visit, and I think today's motion absolutely highlights the very strong public feeling surrounding the use of wild animals in circuses. So, the Welsh Government is very happy to support the motion today.

I want to put on record my commitment to exploring all opportunities to bring forward legislation to ban the use of wild animals in circuses in Wales. I just want to reassure Bethan Sayed that I certainly won't get lost. I don't think anybody should underestimate my personal commitment to doing this. So, there are two things: one is looking at the legislative programme to see where we could bring that legislation forward. As Simon Thomas, I think very pertinently, pointed out, it would be good to have a Welsh Parliament Act, but we do have, obviously, a very crowded legislative programme, but I'm continuing to explore those opportunities, and also section 12, which several Members have raised. When I first came into this portfolio, I did look at section 12 and took evidence on this. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs also did the same, and they were advised that imposing a ban on welfare grounds through regulations could be challenged in the High Court, but I think it is something that we are continuing to look at.

One of the strategic outcomes within the Wales animal health and welfare framework implementation plan is that animals in Wales have a good quality of life. Several Members referred to my intention to develop a licensing scheme for mobile animal exhibits in Wales, and I reassure Janet Finch-Saunders: of course I understand it's a separate issue, and it's really interesting to see that other parts of the UK are now following our approach. I announced that in my written statement in December 2017. That was following a public consultation on the matter. And whilst I was seeking views on that subject, I took the opportunity to ask the public's view on the use of wild animals in circuses. At the same time—it was about the same time, the winter of December 2016—I met with UK Government Ministers. I think it was Lord Gardiner; I've met with him a couple of times. Paul Davies asked whether I had been working with Ministers, so I was working with Ministers, and my officials were working alongside DEFRA officials. Because the UK Government previously announced that it was their intention to ban the use of wild animals in circuses, so I was very happy to have Wales included in that programme because I thought it would be quicker. However, progress has been incredibly slow, and that's why I then decided to take the approach that I have done, and that was to look at all the options.

Paul Davies also asked about the Scottish Government's recent Act that they brought forward. It gained Royal Assent—I think it was towards the end of January. So, we're absolutely looking at that model, and, of course, other models. The Scottish Government proposed a ban on a number of ethical grounds, which, again, received overwhelming support. So, I think that is a very good model for us to look at. So—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

You talked about looking at different kinds of models: what is the timetable with this now? I mean, that's what people are asking. They understand your commitment to having a ban, but what is the precise timetable and when will we see this coming into force? 

Okay. So, this work is ongoing and has been ongoing since the winter of December 2016, and probably before that as well, before I came into post, but it's absolutely going on at the moment. The timetable is—obviously, we will be looking towards year 3 of the legislative programme, so that's my aim now. But the section 12 is also—. And I was very grateful to Simon Thomas for the commitment of Plaid Cymru to support it, if that's the way we can do it. So, the timescale is current and I would hope to be able to bring forward a statement probably by the summer as to whether we would be in legislative programme year number 3, or earlier if we can look at whether we can use section 12.

I want to go back to the mobile animal exhibits, because we know there are not that many wild animals in circuses—I think it's about 19—but we don't know the number of mobile animal exhibits that we have in Wales. We all know of schools that are visited by them, so I thought it was very important that we developed the licensing of the mobile animal exhibits, and as I say, we have other parts of the UK now looking at our approach. I think the approaches taken by all the different parts of the UK need to be compatible also, so again, officals are working very closely with officals in Scotland, Northern Ireland and DEFRA to ensure that the development of our licensing scheme is not done in isolation. 

[Inaudible.] 

Can I just carry on? I'm aware of the time, sorry. We're also engaged in the development of other cross-cutting policies to reinforce animal welfare, and I think it's really important to hear other people's views about circuses. I'll now take an intervention. 

I'm very grateful. What I wanted to try and ascertain from her—because she's set out the options: a standalone Bill or a section 12, and she's also set out the other things that she's looking at. I mentioned another one, which is zoos, as well, which has also come up—

Sorry; I meant zoos as well. 

Well, yes. Obviously, a Bill would allow the wider animal welfare considerations to be addressed, whereas a section 12 has to be specifically targeted at a particular animal welfare issue. Is she, at least, able to give us where her thinking is on that at the moment? Because what the concern, I think, around the Chamber would be that is that we don't want to let something that we can do now be put off because we have a wider agenda that needs to be delivered over a longer period of time.

I mentioned earlier that I'd looked at section 12 as soon as I came into post, and clearly that had been looked at Rebecca Evans, my predecessor, and also by DEFRA. So, the advice I was given was that that would not be the most appropriate way forward, but I am having a look at that again. I know third sector organisations don't agree with lawyers on that, but I'm very happy to continue to look at that. And sorry; I did mean that we were looking at—. You brought a very pertinent point up about zoos, because, clearly, we had that incident in Ceredigion, and so I think it's really important that we look at the whole package in relation to animal welfare.

I want to develop a licensing scheme for mobile animal exhibits that delivers a lasting impact on animal welfare standards in Wales, and I am, again, monitoring developments of the similar schemes that the UK administrations are bringing forward because I do think it's very important that all the schemes are compatible. We've got a very porous border, obviously.

I think the Welsh Government, the public, the enforcement agencies and the courts have to continue to promote the fact there is already a duty of care on all animal keepers to protect the animals in their care, and that's whether it's on a temporary or a permanent basis. That's obviously embedded in the Animal Welfare Act 2006. But I think there's also a responsibility for us as a Welsh Government to ensure the moral values that Wales adheres to are modelled in strong messages and actions, and the responsible animal ownership mantra has never been expressed more strongly than I think it has been today.

So, I just want to reiterate once again my commitment to exploring opportunities to bring forward legislation to ban the use of wild animals in circuses in Wales at the earliest possibility.

I call on David Rowlands to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to thank all the Members for their contributions to the debate and, again, to the petitioner for bringing this petition forward. It's obvious by the numbers who have wanted to speak during this debate that there is huge cross-party support for the ban on wild animals in circuses.

Paul Davies spoke about it being mixed up with mobile animal exhibits, and he was supported in that by Simon Thomas. The joining of these two items could cause problems for how we deal with it in the future. Bethan Sayed—I'm reminding you of your new name—talked about the pressure put on by the petitioners and the high percentage of members of the public supporting this ban. She also made the point of the tardiness in making a decision on the ban and asked for a time frame.

Hefin David talked about a night with the lions and tigers, or at least making sure that there wasn't a night with the lions and tigers, and the success they had in turning away many potential visitors to that exhibit. Michelle Brown gave thanks to those who signed the petition and spoke again of the non-desirability of licensing and the weakness of enforcement of such licensing legislation. Mick Antoniw mentioned the results of the poll he took. I believe he said that there was support for licensing mobile animal acts. Am I right in saying that? Yes. And I think there is support for that in the Chamber in general. Janet Finch-Saunders again mentioned the slow progress by the Welsh Government in bringing in a ban. She made a distinction again between mobile animal exhibits and the use of wild animals in circuses.

Simon Thomas reiterated the desire for the ban on wild animals and circuses, but again, to make a distinction with mobile animal exhibits. And he also brought up the necessity for proper regulation of zoos. Vikki Howells mentioned the scientific evidence from the RSPCA that animals are affected adversely, both physically and mentally, when they are travelling with circuses.

Caroline Jones mentioned the use of wild animals in circuses as barbaric, and having no legislation in Wales could result in a dumping of these circuses in Wales. Joyce Watson welcomed the statement by the Cabinet Secretary—the earlier statement I'm talking about, of course, Joyce—and she also mentioned that this is a cruel form of entertainment, and it certainly wasn't entertainment for the animals involved in this practice. She also mentioned the reindeer that are used as exhibits or attractions over the Christmas period.

I must say, the comments from the Cabinet Secretary, whilst welcome to a certain extent, say that she is still looking at the possibility of legislation—an Act—and, of course, she then mentioned time frames of something like three years—[Interruption.] Well, that's the time frame you said for bringing legislation—. 

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, I'll be corrected on that, of course, Cabinet Secretary.

I said year 3 of the legislative programme, which begins this summer.

Yes, thank you. Well, I would urge her to seriously consider the use of section 12 of the animal rights Act, because it's obvious, throughout the comments made in this Chamber today, that we need urgent action with regard to this, otherwise we will be falling behind other legislatures and Wales will be looked at as an easy option for these circuses.

So, I will mention the fact that we will, as a committee, be returning to this subject in the future, and, again, can I thank all those who contributed to this debate, especially those who brought the petition? And I'll thank Linda again and her supporters for doing just that. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.