That brings us to the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services, and that is a statement on local government. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make the statement. Alun Davies.

Diolch yn fawr. Llywydd, I believe in local government. I was brought up in a house where both my parents worked in delivering local services in Tredegar. For me, local government is not simply about structures and lines on maps. For me, this debate is about people, and it is about who we are as a people.

I want us to discuss and debate how we strengthen and empower communities and councils across Wales. I agree with those people who have argued that we need devolution of powers, not simply to Wales, but throughout Wales as well. I have already asked council leaders what new and additional powers they want to better deliver high-quality services and to shape the future of the communities that they represent. 

I am committed to delivering more powers to Welsh local government and I want to give those new powers to councils that are robust and sustainable enough to use them. I hope that this will be an enriching and positive debate. All too often in the past, we have all focused solely on the challenges facing councils, whether those are financial or otherwise. I hope that we can now focus on the opportunities that we can help create for local authorities in Wales—councils with more freedom and powers, which are bolder and more innovative, and which can deliver the best solutions for their communities and shape their futures.

We all want to see more people coming into local government to serve as councillors. We need councillors, old and new, who reflect the diversity of our communities and are value driven, capable and energetic, working hard to improve people’s lives for the better. We also all want to see strong democratic debate and accountability rooted in the communities we serve. And that includes community and town councils, which play an important part in the delivery of strong local government. While the role of councillors and their relationship with the communities they represent has changed dramatically in the last 10 years, they remain the life blood of local government. Communities have high expectations for public services and councillors across Wales are making some very tough choices. I want to ensure that they have the support, recognition and reward they need and deserve for the crucial role that they play in our democracy.

Presiding Officer, I simply do not believe that this vision of powerful, robust and energised local government can be built without a serious debate about local government structures. Wales needs strong, effective, empowered local authorities that can weather continued austerity and build local democratic structures fit for future generations. Our local authorities need to have the capacity and capability to develop and implement the bold new solutions demanded by the increasing challenges they face.

I know local government has made some very real efforts to change, adapt and invest for the future, but I also understand that in the face of UK Government cuts, there are limited options for ensuring the future sustainability of local services. There is a general acceptance that things cannot carry on as they are and a general acknowledgement that more money, even if it were available, would not necessarily solve all of these problems

Working together regionally remains crucial. It is central to our model of delivery in education and social services, and has been led proactively by local government through the city and growth deals. This must continue and I know that local government leaders remain committed to working regionally. I am committed to working with local government to secure change. I have already announced proposals to increase participation and to improve the democratic process for everyone in Wales, and will continue to work hard to deliver this shared vision.

The Green Paper consultation that I am launching today sets out the proposals to explore the possibility of creating larger, stronger councils. The Green Paper sets out for debate possible options on how this can be achieved. These options include voluntary mergers, a phased approach with early adopters merging first, followed by other authorities, or finally, a comprehensive programme to create a new structure for local government.

Presiding Officer, bringing local authorities together, whilst making a range of changes designed to reinvigorate the democratic process and strengthen the role of elected members, offers us an opportunity to deliver democratically accountable, high-quality and sustainable public organisations that can address the many economic and social changes and challenges that our communities face now, and in the future.

I believe it is important, as part of this debate, to have an agreed future footprint for local government. While I believe that such a future footprint is crucial, I am open to a discussion on what this might look like. The Green Paper sets out an approach that reflects the thinking of the Williams commission and builds on feedback from previous consultations to stimulate discussion to arrive at an agreed approach. I recognise that there are a number of challenges in creating larger, stronger authorities. These challenges are not insurmountable; they are potentially complex and overcoming them will require commitment and leadership at all levels of Government. However, in themselves, they are not reasons for avoiding delivering changes to help transform and sustain our public services for the future.

I believe that local government has the vision and ambition to transform our communities and that we, as the Welsh Government, need to equip them to realise those ambitions. I am making proposals today, but I remain committed to a conversation and would welcome any additional proposals from others. Presiding Officer, I hope now that we can have that positive, constructive and optimistic conversation about how we empower and strengthen local government for the future.

Llywydd, today, we were called at 10:30 as spokespeople to meet with the Cabinet Secretary to discuss the proposals going forward, and I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that. He has maintained since he came into post that he wanted to do so with absolute respect, and that's something we want to work forward to, in positive, going forward, terms. However, I have to be honest, to then present a Green Paper 70 pages long with very little time to absorb it and be able to scrutinise you directly doesn't give us much, and I think there is a lack of respect there. However, we move on; we are where we are, and we do have spokespersons' questions tomorrow, so no doubt I'll be teasing some of the more contentious points out.

But, you know, reform in any guise, however required, can be contentious, especially given that this is yet another attempt by your Government to get a grip of a failed local government system, and it's failed under a Welsh Labour Government. I don't blame our hard-working staff, our officers or our elected members across all 22 authorities. The blame for 20 years of running our local government system to a point that's been described by the WLGA as seeing services

'wearing down to the point of collapse and the public are...frustrated in terms of paying council tax and yet seeing key community functions cut or closed'—.

Indeed, it is telling that there is actually no mention in this about even improving the quality of services to local residents, no mention of the fundamental principles required with any reform, of financial governance, democratic accountability and financial probity. We know the whole position currently is unsustainable and that something has to give. Again, that is what the WLGA say.

The biggest area in local government where up-front savings could be made without wholesale restructuring is through joint working in back-office services, and that's been raised with all the regulatory bodies and others who are interested in us delivering public services effectively across Wales. That doesn't require any change to legislation, doesn't affect democratic representation, and could be initiated immediately. The back-office aspects of local government are relegated to pages 41 and 42 of the Green Paper, and one very much gets the impression that it is an afterthought. That, to me, speaks many volumes in that not only has this Welsh Labour Government run our health service down since devolution, but, through a lack of strategic vision and leadership, we now have a very broken system of public services here in Wales.

You reference the Williams commission in your Green Paper, highlighting some of the problems facing local government. Yet, it doesn't acknowledge many of the other 62 recommendations made by that commission.

This will now be the third attempt and third announcement that there is an intention by your Government to gerrymander—I mean reorganise local government. Over the past seven years, in my role as the Welsh Conservative spokesperson on local government, this portfolio has changed hands in the Cabinet no less than five times with three varying models of local government reform going forward. I suppose my first question to the Cabinet Secretary himself is: do you believe, in all honesty, that you will even still be in post to see the actual delivery of any fundamental and positive reform moving forward?

In 2016, it was also reported that your predecessor, Mark Drakeford, promised the Carmarthenshire council leader his council would stand alone for at least 10 years, instead supporting the option of regional working. We now find out that the Green Paper seeks to scrap regional working and, in doing so, you are throwing councils, their staff, into more turmoil and uncertainty.

Now, I think this comes to three proposals for local government reform in two years. The number of publications and consultations listed in annex A—eight in two years—demonstrates just how long a journey it has been from Williams to now. It has certainly not been direct. I note the options outlined in the Green Paper and consider that only one protects local authorities from voluntary mergers. Were your predecessor's assurances to Carmarthenshire council, therefore, wrong with regard to option 1 and voluntary mergers? Now that these are back on the table, will you be making approaches to those authorities, and what have you done to date for those who came forward with voluntary proposal mergers before, to make amends to those that were quite badly thrown out by a previous Cabinet, well, a Minister, at the time?

With regard to options 2 and 3, we face the same concerns regarding the actual process towards mergers. Where is your cost analysis for actually implementing a system that will, in effect, see 22 local authorities taken down to 10? On council tax harmonisation, little is said within this paper. It says that there's been convergence, and, in the majority of places, the differences today are small and this should not be an insurmountable issue. But we know, in Monmouthshire, for instance, for band E properties, it's £300 less than Blaenau Gwent. And you actually seriously want to merge Blaenau Gwent, Torfaen, with Monmouthshire. We know what this is about. This is about working with the new electoral system, going forward. And it is—this is a political reform. It's not about bringing good services to our people. 

On transition committees and shadow authorities, we have the same questions as in the last Assembly. How will they be accountable? What will the cost be? Who will safeguard and plan them well ahead? I note you've explained you intend to devolve significant powers to local authorities—it's taken you 20 years to actually even think of doing that—for example, land use, planning, housing, skills, transport and environment, as well as issues relating to funding, finance and taxation. Cabinet Secretary, this is a considerable breadth of scope, and I do remain, actually, cynical as to whether this Welsh Government is up for it. Essentially, offering up more ways to tax our hard-working local residents—we know that the Local Government Association Labour group in England has called for higher council tax, a new land value tax and a hotel tax, so will he—

Can I just ask you to bring your questions to a close? You've now taken longer than the Cabinet Secretary. So, if you can draw your questions to a close.

Okay. Okay. With your proposals for larger local authorities, does the Cabinet Secretary envisage that councillors will be elected by proportional representation or first-past-the-post? We would like the answer to that today. And, finally, will you confirm how many council leaders have asked you to leave their councils alone and actually continue in the model now of 22 local authorities? How many council leaders, Cabinet Secretary, in all honesty? Thank you. 

I think Members across the whole Chamber will be glad to hear that the Conservatives do finally have a couple of questions at the end of that. I will say to the Member that I finished my statement with the words that I hoped that we can now have a positive, constructive and optimistic conversation. Perhaps that, in itself, was optimistic. The Member has listed a number of consultations and the process we've been through over the last few years. What she failed to mention is the fact that she hasn't supported a single one of those proposals, and neither has she brought forward any proposals of her own. You know, it isn't sufficient—. And let me say this, let me say this very, very clearly: it is an inadequate response to the challenges faced by local government to simply say and repeat speeches that were made one year and two years ago. That's an inadequate response. It's an inadequate response. It's an inadequate response. It's an inadequate response to what is being proposed today, and what is being proposed in this White Paper. Let me say this: the Member concerned, the Conservative party—[Interruption.] You've asked the questions; I'm quite prepared to sit down if you're not prepared to listen to the answers. Let me say this: the Conservatives describe our local government system as a failed system and a broken system. I reject that. I reject that description. I reject it completely. I reject the criticism that she makes of local government leaders, and I reject the criticism she makes of the way in which local government is currently being managed in Wales. What I want to do is not look for difficulties and look for where there are challenges facing local government. What I want to be able to do is to look at the future for local government and to be positive about that future.

The Member asks about voting systems, and she uses some pretty poor language in order to describe her concerns. But I have to say to her, I made that statement—[Interruption.] I made that statement—I made that statement, in January, on electoral systems. We have not revised that in any way at all, and that forms a part of the basis of what we're saying today. But I hope that the Conservatives will break with the habit of a lifetime and look towards a positive future for local government in Wales. I hope that they will engage in this process—they haven't to date, but I hope that they will do so. And let me emphasise again, Presiding Officer, this is a Green Paper process. It is not a conclusion of a conversation; it is a beginning of a conversation. I want to hear, and I will be proactively seeking to hear, not only what people have to say about the proposals that I make in this document, in this Green Paper, but proposals that others wish to make as well and proposals that they have to empower local authorities, proposals that they have to make local government more robust and more powerful in the future, proposals that they have in order to devolve more powers from this place to local government across Wales, proposals that they have to improve the delivery of services, and proposals that they have in order to strengthen and empower democratic accountability and our local democratic debates across Wales. So far from the Conservatives, whenever the difficult questions are asked, all we hear is a deafening silence.

Like the Cabinet Secretary, I was brought up in a home where both my parents worked for a local council, providing local services to children and adults in Gwynedd. I’ve been a community councillor and a county councillor, and I share the Cabinet Secretary’s view on the importance of local government. This is the safety net that safeguards our most vulnerable people and communities. The task is becoming increasingly difficult as the austerity policies bite, and I have the utmost respect for the work undertaken by our local councils across Wales.

Therefore, what on earth is going on in this Government’s ranks? Today, we received confirmation of a far-reaching u-turn on the future of our councils. After two years of going in one direction under the leadership of Mark Drakeford, we see a new Cabinet Secretary bringing a Green Paper forward that is a substantial and shocking u-turn. This saga—indeed, this farce—poses fundamental questions of the ability of this Government to govern effectively, and poses fundamental questions of the current leadership of the Government.

You will recall in July 2015 that there was an announcement by Leighton Andrews, the Minister for local government at that time, that proposed the creation of eight or nine local authorities from the 22 we currently have. You’ll recall the storm of protest that emerged from that, and, by the time of the publication of the Labour manifesto before the 2016 Assembly, that had been ditched. There was no commitment to that number of councils or, indeed, any number of councils that Labour would want to create. Unison said at that time:

'We are in a state of limbo...the workforce is anxious and fearful of the future.'

Leighton Andrews lost his seat in Rhondda in May 2016, given the substantial victory of my friend Leanne Wood, the leader of Plaid Cymru. Mark Drakeford became Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, and there were new proposals on the table. Merging councils through legislation had been scrapped, and mandatory regionalisation of certain services was a central option to the Drakeford vision. And here we are, almost three years later, and under the stewardship of a new Cabinet Secretary yet again—the third Cabinet Secretary for local government in three years. And we are back to a map very similar to the Leighton Andrews map. He had eight or nine new councils; today, we have 10.

Therefore, I would like to ask: why will council mergers attract support this time when it failed last time to do so? Can you confirm that the timetable in option 2 would mean that councils will have until 2027 to merge? I think Janet Finch-Saunders asked that question, but I didn’t hear any response to it. Mark Drakeford had guaranteed that there wouldn’t be change for 10 years. I’m already receiving messages asking for confirmation of that, so I would be grateful if you could confirm that. In terms of the new powers to be devolved to these new councils, what will those powers be? And will funding follow those new powers? Finally, will your Government carry out an analysis of how much the option of merging councils will cost?

To conclude, there are three things that have become clear. Once again, local government is in limbo. Once again, staff are uncertain about their own futures. And once again, we’re going round and round in circles recycling proposals and restarting conversations that have been held unsuccessfully in the past, and there is no sign of progress from this ineffective Government.

I’m still going to be continuing with my optimism with the kinds of questions that we’re having, because what I hear from the spokesperson for Plaid Cymru is a reiteration of history; a historic argument, but without offering any new ideas. That’s what we’re not seeing in this. None of the opposition parties that we’ve heard from already have any ideas at all about how we’re going to move forward.

So, may I say this very clearly? I have been talking to council leaders the length and breadth of Wales, including Plaid Cymru leaders, and I’m going to tell you this: nobody is going to say that they’re content with the current situation and feel that the current structures are sustainable for the future. And I have to face that. I have to face that. It is possible for you to look back to past elections, but I have to look to the future; I have to look forward and think about the kinds of structures that will give a certainty for council staff and for the people who use local services.

It’s not enough not to take part in this debate about the future. And I’ll say this: I want to seek agreement with local government. I don’t want to push change through unless there’s support for it. I want to spend time having these discussions. I want to spend time leading this debate. I want to have the kind of debate across Wales to ensure that we do get that agreement, ultimately, so that there is agreement on the way forward. And I’m willing to invest time to do that. I’m willing to invest the resources, as a Government, to ensure that we do get that agreement. But we also have to have leadership. We have to have that leadership, and it’s not enough to look back. When you’re trying to lead, you have to look forward.

I’m having discussions at the moment about the kinds of powers that we can transfer to local government, and I will be making a statement on that when I’m in a situation to do so. The Member asks whether funding will be available for these new powers. Well, of course, some of these powers can draw their own funds. It depends how the local authorities use these new powers. So, I want to look at how we put together a new package for local government and I’m going to be seeking agreement with local government. But, I’m going to ensure that this agreement is an agreement that is an ambitious one—ambitious for local government, ambitious for the future and ambitious for what we can do as a nation.

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. I know that you are very well aware of my very deep concerns about the impact of attempting a major restructure of local government during a time of austerity, and can I take this opportunity to remind the Cabinet Secretary that in the last Assembly, Torfaen submitted a proposal for a voluntary merger, which was declined? So, there is absolutely no shortage of willingness to collaborate in Torfaen. I do have some questions. My priority is to get through these years of austerity while trying to secure the best possible public services. Now, we know that services are under stress, but can I ask the Cabinet Secretary: where is the evidence that this is because of structure, rather than the impact of austerity and growing demand, neither of which will be stemmed by reorganisation? Can I ask what the Welsh Government's estimates—? I'm assuming that the Green Paper has been costed. What are the costs of reorganisation, and how will it be paid for, given the current shortage of resources? And would you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that the city deals and other joint working show that, with negotiation and perseverance, regional working can, indeed, make an impact?

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Yes, regional working is a crucial and critical part of what we're doing. This is not an either/or, if you like. This is about creating the units of governance with the capacity and the strategic ability to empower and to drive forward regional working. You and I both supported the proposed merger of Torfaen and Blaenau Gwent in the previous Assembly, and I think you and I both spoke in favour of that at the time. We certainly both met our respective council leaders at the time, and we certainly did provide support to them in taking that forward. I think we both share a disappointment that it didn't happen at that time, and certainly that's what I will be seeking to do now.

In answer to the previous question from the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, I hope I was very, very clear that what I'm seeking to do here is to seek agreement on how we take these matters forward. It's not simply to establish a process through this Green Paper today and then simply choose one of those options. It is to establish the debate, create a framework for that debate, create the opportunity for that discussion, and then, on our agreed proposals, which we will discuss at the end of this process, take that forward to legislation. Now, at the moment, we're not in that position. We're not in the position to actually give you some of the detailed answers that you've asked for, because we haven't taken that decision. What I don't want to do—and this is what I really don't want to do this afternoon—is to end a conversation with the conclusions of that conversation. What I want to do today is to begin that conversation and look for not just a debate on the options that I am making here—what I'm proposing here in this Green Paper—but if there is a plan that comes from either Torfaen, Blaenau Gwent or elsewhere, then let me say: I'm very, very happy to consider that. The consideration that we will be giving to these matters isn't limited to the three proposals in the Green Paper. It isn't limited to a single proposal or a number of proposals. What it is is an opportunity for people to come forward with those proposals, to come forward with those ideas, to be creative in exactly the way that the Member for Torfaen suggests local government has been creative in its approach to city deals and regional working in other ways. This is an opportunity to have that debate—that wider debate, that positive debate, that creative debate, that rich debate—and what I don't want to do today is to either finish that debate, close that debate down or limit that debate.

Thanks to the Minister for today's statement, and also for the briefing earlier today. The Welsh Government's proposed local government reforms have been long in the making, as we've heard from other contributors, and yes, we are on the third Minister who has now worked on them. So, the current Minister has inherited a difficult issue, and I think that most of the players in local government in Wales will probably be relieved, to some extent, that we've got to this point today—that is, we now have a map of the proposed councils. Because what most council leaders want is some measure of certainty for their sector in the coming years. So, although we are moving to a Green Paper, so things can still change, and are subject to consultation, hopefully we will soon know what the final map of the Welsh councils will look like. Now, that is not to say there won't be controversy over which councils we do end up with. Janet raised the issue earlier today of possible political fixing. Now, I won't use the same term, but we know that's always a possibility when boundaries change. But I think there are genuine concerns that are always likely to arise from this kind of reorganisation.

For instance, residents in largely rural Monmouthshire may well have genuine concerns about the proposed merger with the two eastern valleys councils of Torfaen and Blaenau Gwent. There may be concern too in the Vale of Glamorgan about the proposed merger with Cardiff—a major problem there being that Cardiff is an expanding city in population terms, and the planners in Cardiff would dearly love to get their hands on the remaining green fields in the Vale. But, many people living in the Vale may not wish for that quite so ardently. I'm sure there are other issues that you'll have to deal with, Minister.

RCT is a big council as it is—this is another issue—in terms of its electorate. I think we did have an inkling that a merger with Merthyr may well have been on the cards, given that a lot of the services are already shared between the two. But throwing Bridgend into the mix as well did come as something of a surprise. So, I'm sure there will be many controversies going forward. We know that there is going to be contention. So, what I do ask today is: your figure of 10 councils—is that firmly settled in your mind? What if, for instance, there is a strong lobby from various quarters for, let's say, 12 rather than 10? Would you still fairly consider those kinds of representations?

There is also the issue of voluntary mergers. You still leave some leeway for mergers to take place on a voluntary basis. But, of course, the problem with that, as we heard earlier, is that when was proposed by your predecessor but one, he then threw out all of the voluntary mergers that the councils came up with. So, how much leeway are you going to give for proposals for voluntary mergers that don't fit in with the map that you've put forward so far?

Reginal working—Lynne Neagle raised that. You cited the importance of regional working yourself in today's statement, and I think we need to encourage regional working. I know that there is some good practice going on in the use of regional working, driven by financial imperatives. We know there's a lot of stuff going on in south-east Wales where they are using shared services. Now, is it your plan—. We know that you have gone away from this comment of mandatory regional working, which Mark Drakeford was very keen to use. He kept using the term 'mandatory'. You're not using that anymore. So, how are you going to drive forward the idea of regional working? Also, once you have your councils—whether it be 10 or 12 or however many—will you still be encouraging regional working beyond the parameters of one council? Will you still be encouraging, for instance, Gwent-wide regional working, which I understand is happening in some cases at the moment? Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I will say that the map is an indicative map, which gives indications of the direction that we would like to travel in. But, certainly, if strong cases are made, I certainly would be very prepared to look at all those cases, as I've said in answer to previous questions. This is a Green Paper process, where we are happy to consider all different proposals that will be made from any different source in order to look positively at how we can strengthen and empower local government.

I would say that I'd be very disappointed if the representatives of Monmouthshire suddenly found it so difficult to live with myself and the representative for Torfaen. You know, I was born in Monmouthshire in the 1960s—in Tredegar—and Monmouthshire as a concept goes back to the Act of Union. So, we have, over the last 500 years, gained a certain familiarity with ourselves, which I hope we haven't lost in the last 20 years. So, certainly, it's something that we have sought to recognise in the way that we are trying to bring people together. But, I have to say to the Member that everything we are proposing today is about beginning a conversation and not concluding one.

But the point that the Member makes about regional working is crucial. It's absolutely crucial. There are certain things where I think we need to be very clear in what our approach is. I don't wish to see any new authority crossing a health board or a police boundary. I think that makes sense in terms of a coherence of service delivery and in terms of regional working. The purpose of this proposed reform isn't an either/or—regional working or a different structure. It is in order to de-complexify, if you like, and in order to strengthen regional working. Many of us have had conversations, particularly those of us who represent the south Wales Valleys, about the complexity of some of our structures today, about the complexity of decision making. And what we want to be able to do is to have governance of a size that is appropriate to a country of 3 million people. What that enables us to do is to create structures that have the power to then deliver regional working in a more profound way, to have a capacity to think and to act strategically within a regional footprint, and to work alongside colleagues in order to deliver either the services or the strategic economic development that they want to see.

So, this is about not simply drawing lines on a map, it is about how we empower local government and how we strengthen local government in order to provide a more robust structure for the future.

Cabinet Secretary, it won't surprise you that I remain opposed to a merged Pembrokeshire and to forcing it back into a Dyfed model, because I remain of the view that that will lead to further centralisation of services away from Pembrokeshire. Now, I appreciate that today's Green Paper is looking to explore the approach that should be taken by the Welsh Government, which includes a single comprehensive merger programme, and I presume from that option that it would result in the Welsh Government forcing mergers if that option is adopted.

It's quite clear from the people that I represent that there is no appetite to merge Pembrokeshire back into a Dyfed model, especially given that Pembrokeshire County Council, from all parties, including your Labour colleagues on the council, just over two years ago voted in favour of a notice of motion, calling the reintroduction of the old Dyfed model unacceptable. In the circumstances, can you here, today, therefore reassure my constituents that you will not proceed with forced mergers, unless the proposals carry the will of the people that I represent?

I'm aware of the strong feelings of the Member for Preseli. Let me say this: as I said in answer to previous questions, what I'm not going to do today is to announce my conclusions of this process. I don't think, in all fairness, you would expect or anticipate me saying that. What we are providing for is three options here, only one of which you've described in your question, and one of which, of course, wouldn't provide for any of those scenarios that you've drawn in your question.

But what I would say to you is: how do we protect public services? How do we protect public service workers? How do we devolve more power closer to home, away from this place? All issues that you've brought up over the years we've spent in this Chamber together, and where there's been broad and wide agreement—how do we do that in a way that guarantees robust local accountability as well as robust local decision making? And I don't think that you would necessarily disagree with any of those objectives, although I do understand the almost emotional commitment, if you like, to Pembrokeshire as a historic county of Wales. I would not want for one moment for these proposals to be interpreted as a threat to any of those historical identities—we hold them strong, and we quite rightly hold those identities strong. It is important that we recognise those. But the delivery of public services would be, under any model, a matter for a local authority in that area, and I would certainly encourage all local authorities to ensure that jobs and services are provided as close to the citizen as possible in whatever structure we finally conclude would be relevant for the future.

First of all, can I welcome devolution in Wales of more powers to local authorities? It's a movement away from the direction of travel over the last 45 years. Some people in here may remember when local authorities controlled the police, controlled water, controlled higher education, controlled further education, all of which have been taken off local government over the last 45 years. Quite often, a local government reorganisation seems like a good time to remove powers from a local authority. So, I very much welcome that.

Of course, we're overdue a local government reorganisation. We have one every 22 years, and we should have had one last year, shouldn't we, rather than this year, but that's the direction. And every time we have a local government reorganisation, we've got it right. This is the optimum way of running local government. We had it in 1973, when I was in school, when the counties and districts inside them were perfect, then we had, 'No, you need unitary authorities.' Now we know we need very large authorities.

Why does the Cabinet Secretary believe that larger bodies in local government are more efficient and effective than smaller ones? Can I ask: is he aware of the problems that Birmingham social services, for example, have had, which is the largest local authority in Britain, possibly the largest in Europe? What population and geographical size does he think is optimum? I ask that because Powys, apparently, with a population of approximately 132,000, is fine to be stand-alone, but Pembrokeshire, as Paul Davies mentioned, with 128,000, isn't. Carmarthenshire, with 180,000, isn't. I'm trying to get behind the logic of why, in some areas, we need very big authorities. Why do Swansea and Neath Port Talbot, which are both bigger than Powys, have to be merged? I've got no problem with them merging. I'm not sure we'll get a much better authority, and there'll be costs associated with it. And to the question that was asked earlier—[Inaudible.]—the cost of reorganisation will be approximately 5 per cent of the current net expenditure. That's what happened last time, and I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be the same this time.

We've created lots in Wales over the years—lots of large bodies within the public sector. That's been the direction of travel under Conservative Governments at Westminster, under Labour, under Labour and Plaid, under Labour and the Liberal Democrats in here. We've had fewer and fewer organisations, which tend to be larger and larger. Just a question—the Cabinet Secretary might not want to answer this—but does he believe that the larger organisations in Wales, the really big ones—and you can think of some now—and the all-Wales bodies, are performing so well that we need to have more larger bodies?

Thank you. I'm glad that the Member for Swansea East welcomed the general thrust of my approach to these matters in terms of devolving powers to local government structures and bodies across Wales, and decentralising governance in Wales. I'm sure that the Member will be pleased that I do welcome that.

Do you know, the conversation that you've started in that question is exactly the conversation I want to have over the coming months? Because I do not say in this paper, and I do not believe, that there is a single optimum size or shape that fits everywhere in Wales. What is right in Powys isn't necessarily going to be right for the Valleys of south Wales, certainly isn't going to be right for the cities, and certainly wouldn't be right for areas of the north either. So, we don't seek to say here that there is an optimum shape and an optimum size for local government. What we're seeking to do is to create structures to which we can devolve additional powers and with which we can protect the roles and jobs of public service workers, so that we can deliver excellence in public services and ensure and hard-wire democratic accountability and democratic decision making within those structures, as close to the citizen as possible.

Now, how you get close to the citizen will be different in different places. I accept that, and I accept that some councils will always be larger, and others smaller than some other authorities. I accept that, and that is the nature of the country in which we live. I don't want to deliver uniformity across Wales but I do believe that we need a level of consistency in services and a consistency in democratic accountability, and a consistency in how we're able to manage our affairs. Mike Hedges and I were both in school in 1973—I suspect different schools, but we were both in school—and we were both born in and have lived in different local authority areas, and I accept that there's been a search for the right shape and the right size for authorities, and we haven't, in the past, always got those things right. That is why I start this conversation today in a way that seeks to stimulate debate and not to close down debate. I know, on occasions like this, in statements like this, Members will ask questions and they will seek definite and precise answers, but I think every so often it is right and proper that a Minister starts a debate and doesn't seek to conclude the debate in the same speech.

Can I first of all put on record, Cabinet Secretary, that I think I'd rather live next to you than with you? There may still be time for your charm to work on me, but as things stand at the moment, I'm happy as a next-door neighbour. [Laughter.]

You certainly deserve credit for your courage in pursuing issues seemingly designed to reduce your popularity, probably as much in the Labour Party, given today's speeches, as across other political parties. Look, I welcome your statement today. I think it is an interesting debate. We do, all of us, want to talk about how we progress public services in Wales. But I must say, I don't quite understand why this Green Paper starts off by saying that local government is about more than drawing lines on maps, and then on the next page you go on to draw a bunch of lines on maps. There are no options as to how those lines should be drawn. It's sort of shoved in the middle of the document as though this is the obvious way that it should be done, but there's no actual logic to it, to me. 

There are lots of interesting statistics, ranging from population to council tax bases, but no recognition of the importance of the feel of an area, its character, its brand—to use the modern term. Why are you going about it in this way, rather than looking at the factors that, for instance, in my area, make Monmouthshire successful in harnessing the energy of its people, of promoting its history and heritage, and growing the local economy, because the brand works? It's not the case that across the whole of Wales local government has been a total disaster. There have been elements of good practice and there have been elements of poor practice. I think your intention—at least, I think your intention at the start of this process—is to try and make sure that it's the good practice that wins over the poor practice. We would certainly support that.

There's no explanation about how local government area 10, which I think I'll end up living in—. I trust that's a working title, it does sound a little bit like something from Nineteen Eighty-Four—very Orwellian—perhaps there's something behind this. How will that area 10 provide a more successful brand? Will it be identifiable or respected by or accepted by the people who will live in it? As Gareth Bennett said in his comments earlier, if you're talking about joining an area like Monmouthshire with Blaenau Gwent—okay, you've got the Heads of the Valleys road, which is being developed, and there might be some arguments for building on that, but it doesn't seem to me that the public, the people out there these bodies are supposed to represent, are really involved or engaged in this at all. So, if you want to come to my area at some point, I'll take you around one of the country shows, and I'm sure you'll get people's opinions very quickly.

Look, like you, I'm an optimist, Cabinet Secretary, but optimism does require a basis for that optimism and not simply a leap in the dark. I do fear that at this point in time this paper is closer to the latter than the former.

I agree with large parts of Nick Ramsay's speech, much to his horror—I actually think he's right. The interesting thing is that he describes himself as somebody from Monmouthshire and he takes ownership of that, but I'm from Monmouthshire. I was born in St James Hospital, Tredegar, Monmouthshire. I was educated in Monmouthshire as well. And the first time I saw the All Blacks play, they played Monmouthshire. You know, it is part of my identity as well as a part of your identity, Nick, and you know that and I know that. We are both from that place that we both recognise and have historical roots that go back long into history. That is why the point that you make, and the point made by Paul Davies as well, is so important about what local structures are. 

My belief in where I come from and my identity, as somebody from the borderlands of Wales, from Monmouthshire, from a border county, isn't determined by the structure of local government, but is determined by who we see ourselves as being and how we define ourselves in what we do and how we live, and that isn't a matter—. No politician can take that from somebody, and no politician can create it either.

So, what we're seeking to do here is to recognise those historical bounds, those historical traditions, those histories that created all of us. You don't own Monmouthshire and neither do I. We both share that history and we both share that identity. I recognise the validity of the points that you're raising and I recognise the points that you make in terms of the structures that we've described in this Green Paper, but what I would really value from you isn't a critique of that but an alternative to it and a proposal to build upon it.

You recognise and I recognise that what we can't do today is carry on doing what we've done in the past, and that means that we do need to think hard about these matters. We need to think hard about the people who deliver our services, we need to think hard about how we hard-wire democratic accountability, and we need to think hard about the sorts of structures to which we can devolve powers, and we can devolve and empower new opportunities for local government, to see a renaissance of local government in Wales and to ensure that local government in the future doesn't just have the powers but the ability to deliver on those powers.

And finally with just a question, Mark Isherwood.

Thank you. Well, we've heard much of your general thrust, including your acknowledgement that we need devolution of powers within Wales, which is precisely what the North Wales Economic Ambition Board is calling for in its growth bid. Could I suggest that an alternative model might be the collaborative regional approach developed in north Wales by the North Wales Economic Ambition Board, working together in strategy, prioritisation and, increasingly in the future, delivery, where we know the evidence from mergers in all the sectors is that big is not always more beautiful, cost-effective or efficient?

Yes, I am happy to pursue that dialogue and that conversation. As I said, this is the beginning of a process and not the end of a process, and what we're seeking to do today is to stimulate exactly that conversation. I've spoken to all the local government leaders in north Wales, and spoken to them at length about how they work together, and I've tried to speak to them about how we deliver public services across north Wales. There are differing views across those six authorities, but there is an absolute commitment to working together, and I accept that; I don't question it. I value that and I'm grateful to them for that.

What we need to be able to ensure in regional working is that we have the building blocks in order to empower regional working, that we have the building blocks in order to deliver the strategic thinking, the strategic ability to deploy resources in order to have that maximum impact. How we do that will be different in different parts of Wales, and I hope that we can have that rich debate in north Wales about how all of our communities can feel empowered and can feel that they can hold politicians, both here and locally, to account.

Thank you.