The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Paul Davies, and amendment 2 in the name of Julie James. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

We now move on to the Plaid Cymru debate on child poverty, and I call on Bethan Sayed to move the motion. Bethan.

Motion NDM6723 Rhun ap Iorwerth

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes the recent increase in child poverty.

2. Notes research for Save the Children Cymru which found that: 'By age five around a third of children living in poverty (30-35 percent) were already falling behind across a range of cognitive outcomes (i.e. vocabulary, problem solving, dexterity and coordination) compared with a fifth of those from better-off families (20-21 per cent)'.

3. Believes that responsibility for the increase in child poverty and for tackling child poverty, resides with both the UK Government and Welsh Government.

4. Regrets that the Welsh Government has ended the Communities First programme without an evaluation of its effectiveness or a plan for its replacement.

5. Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure equal access to high quality early childhood education and care for all children in Wales with a specific focus on providing additional support to all children living in poverty, as recommended by Save the Children Cymru.

6. Further calls on the Welsh Government to take all steps within its powers to tackle child poverty as part of a new plan for eliminating child poverty that includes SMART targets rather than vague statements.

7. Believes that such a plan can only succeed with the administrative control of social security and that securing these powers should be a major strategic objective of the new plan.

Motion moved.

Diolch. Child poverty is a scourge on our country. I'm not going to sugar-coat it for anyone here today, nor am I going to seek to mislead anyone surrounding its cause or effects. It gives me no joy, in fact, to open this debate today, discussing the same scandal of poverty that exists in Wales, which has only worsened in the last decade. Put simply, a child's in poverty when their household is earning less than 60 per cent of median earnings. So, in fact, child poverty is the poverty of adults with dependent children. It is not just a social problem but a deep and structural economic one that many communities in Wales have found themselves in for decades. We know many of the statistics, and I don't wish to repeat them all here today, as my colleagues will also outline those in more detail, but the top-line figures indicate very clearly the urgency of the situation facing Wales's next generation.

Of the 600,000 children in Wales, one in three—200,000—are living in poverty; 90,000 are living in severe poverty. Over half of children in low-income families worry about how their parents are going to pay for basic necessities. No child should have to face that kind of stress. And, unfortunately, the situation is not getting better, with the Institute for Fiscal Studies warning that, by 2021, child poverty will increase by 7 percentage points, four of which are directly linked to welfare cuts and changes.

We know too well the effects of child poverty in Wales. We know that a child who grows up in a poor household is far less likely than peers in higher or middle-income households to reach the same level of educational attainment. We know that a child in poverty is more likely to develop mental health issues, along with wider health problems. The biggest effect of child poverty, though, is the long-term consequences for the future of our nation. 

I grew up in the 1980s in Merthyr Tydfil and I lived through Thatcherism and the devastation it caused to my community and others across Wales. We saw that a generation of children growing up in poverty during that period too often stayed in poverty as they entered adulthood and they fell into the criminal justice system. I was trying to think of an example of how I recognised poverty at an earlier age in my life and it was an experience I had when going to work experience in the courts in Merthyr with a local law firm. I realised that I knew quite a lot of the young people who were going into the court that day, and I also met some of them afterwards. In fact, when I went in there as a witness to this experience, on work experience, somebody thought that I was the girlfriend of somebody who was being charged that day. I think that's where it hit home, because I really wasn't very happy or comfortable with the fact that a lot of my peers in my school age group were in that particular predicament in their lives. And they shouldn't have been in the criminal justice system, but they just hadn't been supported throughout their lives, because of the poverty that they were living in, because of the circumstances that they grew up in in Merthyr in the 1980s. And it's continuing to happen to this day in many of our communities across Wales.

But the difference between now and the 1980s is that we do have a Welsh Government, and we did not have that then. But where is that Welsh Government? I'm not going to suggest that they hold the full responsibility, although they would never do that anyway, as we've seen from their amendment today. I know that the toxic mix of right-wing economics and pernicious welfare changes that have been ushered in by the UK Government have been a cause and a barrier to this problem, but nor should there be any sense of complacency that there isn't more that can be done by this Government in Cardiff Bay. We don't want to continuously describe the problem; we want to come up with real solutions here in Wales.

The Labour amendment today portrays their lack of seriousness on this issue, unfortunately. Yes, there is an acknowledgement that they and the UK Government are responsible, and it has outlined some worthy projects and we agree with those projects. But, in our view, no Government can claim to be taking the scandal of our poverty seriously unless they aspire to hold all the levers of change that could affect it here in Wales. The truth is that the welfare needs of all of our citizens are not being equally met. Now, in the here and now, are you seriously content to sit on the sidelines? Their needs are equally being undermined by the UK Government and it really is frustrating to hear, time and time again, that we must do this in an equal way when it's a race to the bottom at the moment. Do we really want to leave the powers of welfare reform in the hands of the Conservatives in the UK as opposed to taking our own stake in this, having our own view on these projects? That's what I find fundamentally difficult to understand from the Labour benches here in Wales. How can Labour attack Tory welfare changes as the biggest driver of the problem on child poverty when they completely reject even trying to gain control over the very powers that could alleviate the effect of, or even stop, some of those changes? To us, it portrays a fundamental lack of energy and a hunger to be nothing more than a regional grant-distributing body.

In 1964, the United States launched—and I quote—'the war on poverty', an economic opportunity Act, the long title of which reads,

'An Act to mobilize the human and financial resources of the Nation to combat poverty'. 

I'm not suggesting we have the same variety of tools to emulate that particular plan, but the sentiment and the drive of a Government drawing on all the levers at its disposal to tackle a national emergency is simply lacking here in Wales.

I also want to touch on something important. This is a debate that is taking place in other devolved nations, and those devolved nations are doing better than our country. In Northern Ireland, despite the enormous structural, social and economic discrimination faced by so many of the population, and the instability of the Troubles and its devolved Government emanating from that particular Good Friday agreement, it has a lower child poverty rate than Wales. Scotland also has a lower child poverty rate than Wales, despite not using much of the fiscal powers and advantages it has until very recently. The economic growth o both countries and their GDPs, relative to the UK average, has been stronger than in Wales. In the late 1990s, Wales had a higher GDP than Ireland. No guesses as to where we are with that one today. People in Wales will be rightly asking where is our devolution dividend after two decades of Labour rule. The Welsh Government may point to their current programmes, but what about the last decade? I think Labour needs to ask itself a serious and heartfelt question: how does it want its era of Government to be marked in this period of devolution?

As I mentioned, I remember what it was like growing up in the area that I grew up in, in a place stricken by poverty and decline—and it has got better. I fear now that poverty that was more visible in the 1980s in terms of shut factories and abandoned industrial spaces has now become more hidden. We are going through our second period of widespread poverty in Wales in my lifetime, if, in fact, it ever truly went away. At this point, many people will recognise the Welsh Labour era of the last decade as the era of poverty, the era of decline, the era of struggle. I take no partisan joy in that prospect; there is only sadness and frustration for me at the thought of yet another generation that has been let down.

Thank you. I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call Mark Isherwood to move amendment 1 tabled in the name of Paul Davies.

Amendment 1. Paul Davies

Delete all and replace with:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes that child poverty levels in Wales stand above the UK level with rates rising before the last recession.

2. Notes research for Save the Children Cymru which found that: 'By age five around a third of children living in poverty (30-35 per cent) were already falling behind across a range of cognitive outcomes (i.e. vocabulary, problem solving, dexterity and coordination) compared with a fifth of those from better-off families (20-21 per cent)'.

3. Recognises that although UK Government policy in reserved areas also applies in Wales, the Welsh Government has responsibility for promoting prosperity and tackling poverty programmes, including Communities First, in Wales since 1999.

4. Notes the importance of access to high-quality early childhood education and care for children in Wales and the need for targeted support for children living in poverty.

5. Further calls on the Welsh Government to take all steps within its powers to tackle child poverty as part of a new plan for eliminating child poverty that includes SMART targets rather than vague statements.

Amendment 1 moved.

Diolch. Although child poverty in Wales fell briefly to the UK level in the middle of the last decade, it started rising above UK levels again before the financial crash and recession, and only started falling after the change of UK Government in 2010. At 28 per cent, child poverty levels in Wales still exceeded those in Scotland and Northern Ireland last year. According to the End Child Poverty local authority data, in January, 178,676 children in Wales were considered to be in poverty after housing costs, with child poverty in Wales per capita above the UK average, where one in three live in poverty after housing costs, compared with one in four in Scotland and England.

Child poverty can't be looked at in isolation. After 19 years of Labour Welsh Government, Wales has the highest poverty rates of all UK nations at 24 per cent, the highest level in Wales since 2007-08. Wales also has the second highest poverty rates out of all the UK regions. Further, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation's 'Poverty in Wales 2018' report found that 

'The proportion of households living in income poverty in Wales...remains higher than in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland' and that

'Poverty among couples with children has been rising since 2003/06.'

During Labour's last term in UK Government, the number of unemployed people increased by 1 million, youth unemployment rose by 44 per cent and the number of households where no member had ever worked nearly doubled. UK employment is now at a record high, unemployment at a 40-year low, and the number of young people out of work back down by nearly 408,000 since 2010.

Will you take an intervention?

I'll take one intervention, certainly.

Do you take any responsibility for your party's actions in Government for any of the statistics that you've just read out?

The statistics I've read out, no, because they relate to the pattern over 20 years and longer, rather than a short period of recent time.

After almost two decades of Labour Welsh Government, Wales has been left trailing behind—14 per cent of children in Wales living in a workless household compared to 11 per cent for the UK. Wales has the lowest employment rate and highest economic inactivity rate in Britain, and the highest unemployment rate in the UK nations. The Bevan Foundation's March 2018 employment briefing reports that although having job security enables workers to plan their daily lives and have a secure income, the proportion in non-permanent employment, including zero hours, is higher in Wales than in Britain and has stayed relatively high, whereas the proportion has declined in Britain. In January, the Office for National Statistics reported that income inequality has fallen over the last decade and households have more disposable income than at any time previously—I will take credit for that—with the incomes of the poorest households up nearly £2,000 compared to pre-downturn levels. That's the ONS, not a politician.

However, although UK real wages are now rising faster than prices, Welsh workers now have the lowest weekly wages out of all the UK nations, with gross weekly earnings £46 behind the UK level. Twenty years ago, Welsh and Scottish workers had identical weekly pay packets, but 20 years later, a Scottish weekly pay packet contains £43 more than a Welsh pay packet.

I therefore move amendment 1, which proposes

'that the National Assembly for Wales:

'1. Notes that child poverty levels in Wales stand above the UK level with rates rising before the last recession.

'2. Notes research for Save the Children Cymru which found that: "By age five around a third of children living in poverty (30-35 per cent) were already falling behind across a range of cognitive outcomes".

'3. Recognises that although UK Government policy in reserved areas also applies in Wales, the Welsh Government has responsibility for promoting prosperity and tackling poverty programmes, including Communities First, in Wales since 1999.

'4. Notes the importance of access to high-quality early childhood education and care for children in Wales and the need for targeted support for children living in poverty.

'5. Further calls on the Welsh Government to take all steps within its powers to tackle child poverty as part of a new plan for eliminating child poverty that includes SMART targets rather than vague statements.'

We agree with Plaid Cymru very much in that respect. The Welsh Government ended its Communities First Programme after spending nearly £0.5 billion on it. As the Bevan Foundation stated,

'Communities First did not reduce the headline rates of poverty in the vast majority of communities, still less in Wales as a whole.'

They added that a new programme

'should be co-produced by communities and professionals and not be directed top-down', that it should be based on a

'clear theory of change that builds on people’s and community’s assets not their deficits' and that 

'local action should be led by established, community-based organisations which have a strong track-record of delivery and which have significant community engagement.'

They also stated that if people feel that policies are imposed on them, the policies don’t work.

Thank you. I call on the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care to move amendment 2 formally, tabled in the name of Julie James.

Thank you—

No, no, you're only moving the amendment.

Amendment 2. Julie James

Delete all and replace with:

1. Believes that responsibility for tackling child poverty resides with both the UK Government and Welsh Government.

2. Notes with concern latest EHRC analysis which shows that UK Government tax and welfare reforms will push an extra 50,000 children into poverty by 2021/22.

3. Welcomes the Welsh Government focus on employment as the best route out of poverty and the ambitious actions set out in the Economic Action Plan and Employability Plan.

4. Welcomes the continued investment in Flying Start, Families First, the Pupil Development Grant and the Healthy Child Wales Programme to ensure every child has the best start in life.

5. Believes that the welfare needs of all UK citizens should be equally met and that the devolution of welfare benefits does not support this principle.

Amendment 2 moved.

Apologies. I move formally. Sorry.

Thank you.

I was ready to go. I was too keen—my apologies.

Yes. It's to formally move it, so—

Formally.

Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I want to focus my comments on the need to ensure equal access for children to early-years education. I will start by sharing a statistic with you: over half of children from disadvantaged areas in Wales will start school with deficient communication skills. Indeed, children from the poorest 20 per cent of the population, by the time they are three years old, will be almost a year and a half behind the better-off children in terms of language development. Think about that; when you’re just three years old, you’re already 18 months behind. This is important, because this is one of the most certain measures of the outlooks for individuals later in life. Weak skills, in terms of communication and vocabulary, have a huge impact on lifelong outcomes in terms of behaviour, mental health, preparedness for school and employment too.

Bethan made reference earlier to the justice system and young people within the justice system. Sixty per cent of the young people on the youth justice estate have communication difficulties. Almost 90 per cent of young men who have been unemployed in the long term have communication and vocabulary problems. Without effective communication, a third of children will need treatment for mental health problems when they become adults. The evidence is clear that the provision of early-years education of a high quality, available to all, is the best way of bringing children out of poverty—and that’s what Plaid Cymru wants to see.

Will you not accept that progress has been made with Flying Start in actually getting children from two to three? And what you said at the very beginning is something that I've written about and said for the last seven years: too many children are starting school and are a year or two years behind, and they've got to try and make it up in the next seven. But surely Flying Start must be seen as progress.

Well, if you've written and spoken about it for seven years, you don't need to tell me; you should tell your own Government. I'll come on to Flying Start in a minute, because you do make a valid point, but I'll address that in a moment.

Therefore, I’ve outlined why I believe it’s important that we commit to provide free childcare for all children at three and four years old, as a means of tackling this inequality that I have referred to. This debate is timely because just this morning we started to scrutinise the childcare funding Bill that this Government has brought forward, and that policy, brought forward by Government, limits free childcare to working families. One could argue—and the Government does argue—that that brings benefits to them, although there are questions, in my mind and in other people’s minds, as to the evidence to support that, but in my view it also increases the risk that those children from the most disadvantaged families, the unemployed families, will be left even further behind. Plaid Cymru wants to break that vicious circle of disadvantage and low attainment.

The children’s commissioner, Save the Children and others share Plaid Cymru’s view that excluding children from non-working families from this childcare offer will expand the education gap rather than narrow it. Some of the evidence that we’ve heard is damning. The children’s commissioner said, for example:

'Not only is this Bill likely to disadvantage children of non-working household disproportionately, it is also unlikely to achieve its main aim.'

She also says:

'I am therefore unconvinced that this investment is evidence-based or well-targeted…I do not believe that the policy behind this Bill shows that the scheme will be suitable for the long-term.'

Now, those are the children's commissioner's views.

Do you know, by the way, that couples who earn up to £199,000 a year will be eligible for the free childcare offer? Now, the Government tells us that those who are less well-off have access to Flying Start—and I'm now addressing the point you made, Mike. Most disadvantaged children, of course, don’t live in Flying Start areas, and that’s the problem: it’s geographically limited. Half of our poorest, most disadvantaged, most fragile, most at risk of being left behind children will be shut out by this policy because they won’t be able to access free childcare, whilst families earning potentially £199,000 a year are given free childcare by this Labour Government. Is it really what Labour now represents? Because if it is, you've clearly lost your way. Listen to the children’s commissioner, listen to Save the Children and others, listen to Plaid Cymru: make the childcare offer universal so that everyone, including our poorest children, can equally have the best start in life.

Well, I make no excuses for repeating some of the figures used by Bethan Sayed and others, because they deserve repeating time and time again. Approximately 600,000 children live in Wales. Of those, one in three, or 200,000, are in poverty; 90,000 are living in severe poverty. More than half of Welsh children in low-income families are worried their parents are finding it harder to pay for everyday necessities such as food, heating and clothes.

Unfortunately, the rhetoric in this Chamber blames cuts to benefits as the main cause of poverty. This is just not the case. Lack of good, well-paid jobs is the greatest factor affecting poverty in Wales, whether it is poverty for children or the sector as a whole. It is the failure of the Welsh Government to provide those jobs that is the reason for the appalling situation and figures for poverty in Wales. It is a lame excuse to blame UK Government benefit cuts, as unwelcome as they are, for the increasing number of food banks and other indicators of poverty in Wales. The only true and sustained route out of poverty is employment—good, well-paid employment. The Welsh Government claims that unemployment levels are at an all-time low but masks the fact that much of that employment is part-time, or worse, through the iniquitous zero-hours contract system of so-called employment.

I do believe strenuous efforts are now being made by the Welsh Government to alleviate this problem: better apprenticeship programmes, an education system much more aligned to business needs and a number of interventions designed to get the long-term unemployed back into work. But all this against the backdrop of 20 years of Labour Government in Wales—a Government that promised to eradicate poverty by 2020, and needless to say, there's not much time to achieve that goal. And I will point out that for 13 of those 20 years, there was a Labour Government in the UK Parliament at that time. Twenty years that included the debacle of the Communities First programme, which the Government promised would bring an end to poverty in our most deprived areas, and which actually delivered, apart from some isolated cases, almost nothing: £410 million down the drain. Evidence for this lies in the figures quoted above. One wonders how many real long-term jobs would have been created if we had given £1 million with proper controls to 410 proven entrepreneurs.

It is now time for the Welsh Government to deliver on their promises. The people of Wales, and especially those condemned to a life of poverty, deserve better than that delivered in the last 20 years.

Whatever your political hue, we can all agree that not a single child should grow up in poverty. Not a single child should face the indignity and stigma that poverty brings.

I want to start by outlining the context in which I'm calling for change. We've heard the statistics. Child poverty here is higher than any other UK nation. What does this mean for our children? It means that a third of children face a daily struggle, a demeaning struggle, that leaves them hungry, ill, subject to being picked on, and devoid of hope for a better future.

Just last month the Trussell Trust confirmed that foodbank use in Wales continues to grow. Buried in those statistics was the fact that 35,403 of those forced to rely on food parcels were children. Now, I know that the Minister is not proud of these figures, but Labour are in Government. Labour has the power to change things, and so it is Labour that must take responsibility for this dreadful situation.

I also recognise that the Conservatives in Westminster retain control over some of the levers that could help bring children out of poverty: the rape clause, which means that women with a third child have to prove they were raped before they are able to receive tax credits, or the new bereavement support payment system that has slashed financial support offered to those who have lost a loved one from 20 years to 18 months, and then, of course, we had the chaos that is universal credit—the botched roll-out of Westminster's flagship benefits reform has left families desperate and even homeless. These are policies that are causing suffering to those who are already suffering. It's benefit reforms such as these that are cited as one of the core reasons for an increase in child poverty. In fact, the Equality and Human Rights Commission found welfare reform policies will push 50,000 more children in Wales into poverty, and that is an outrage that demands change.

So, what can be done to change this situation? Firstly, the Welsh Government must stop cutting its funding to those in need of support. Just last week we were forced to debate the Welsh Government's decision to cut the school uniform grant for the poorest children. This week Labour are under pressure to reverse their decision to scrap the Welsh independent living grant. In today's amendment to the Plaid Cymru motion, the Government points to the economic action plan as a means to alleviate poverty. Now, I'd like to invite the Minister now to intervene on me to tell me how many times the word 'poverty' is used in that action plan. Do we have a question there? Do you know how many times the word 'poverty' is mentioned in the action plan?

I'm happy to intervene. You won't be surprised that I don't know how many times the word 'poverty' is used in that plan, but, actually, the child poverty strategy is still in place and we'll be reporting in 2019, as my predecessor in this role said. Also, the attack on poverty and the raise in prosperity is not only articulated within that plan, but also with the employment plan that we'll be bringing forward, and every strand of Government thinking. It is embedded across Government. So, I can't play the game of how many words are within a document, but I can say that tackling poverty goes right across this Government's thinking.

Well, I can help you. I can tell you that your economic action plan, which you rely upon heavily to reduce poverty, has a mention just once of 'poverty'. It's on page 24, and it's in a list.

Now, it's the poverty of ambition from this Government that is leading to the poverty of our children. Just last week I called on the Minister to join Plaid Cymru in supporting the devolution of welfare administration, and what was this Labour Government's response to that? Pretty much that the Conservatives in Westminster are more able than yourselves to deliver benefits for those people.

Now, let me just make a few facts clear regarding the devolution of welfare administration. It will be—[Interruption.] Go on.

I didn't say that the UK Government was more able to administer welfare, I was saying the Welsh Government doesn't want to be administering the UK Government's Tory cuts.

You've refused to take responsibility and you are more than happy to keep blaming the Tories for something that you could have within your gift. Also, the devolution of benefits would be cost neutral because the block grant to the Scottish Government was adjusted upwards to reflect the transfer of responsibility for welfare.

By making some changes, we could alleviate pressure on the NHS and other devolved services, actually leading to money being saved. The conclusion has to be a simple one: Labour is not a party of principle but of political expediency, shunning responsibility in favour of helpful political ambiguity. 

I want to finish my speech by calling for action from this Government. I call on you to stop abdicating responsibility. You are the Government. You are responsible. Take control of the administration of welfare and lift these children out of poverty.

In the summer of 2017 a report was published, ‘Communities First—Lessons Learnt’, and that was by the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, of which I am a member. Recommendation 4 of the report stated:

'We strongly recommend that a clear tackling poverty strategy is published, which brings together the many strands of poverty reduction work to help provide clear direction and to help the Assembly scrutinise the Government’s approach. The strategy should include clear performance indicators to ensure effective performance management, as well as setting out a broader evidence base to help underpin effective evaluation of different approaches to tackling poverty.'

The Welsh Government rejected that recommendation. The committee’s response was this:

'We remain disappointed that this recommendation has been rejected. We feel that a framework provided by a Strategy or Action Plan is absolutely essential to enable us to scrutinise whether Government policies are working. The key is a clear action plan, with performance indicators, which are disaggregated by area and gender…An action plan would also help demonstrate how well integrated the Welsh Government’s approach is, and ensure that cross-portfolio work is all working to the same goal.'

It is a scandal that this Government doesn’t have a clear strategy for eradicating poverty. The Government’s stubbornness suggests one of two things. One, that eradicating poverty is not a priority, or that they don’t truly believe that it’s possible to eradicate poverty and that failing to reach targets would be a signal of failure, and therefore it’s better not to have any targets at all and not to have a plan. In terms of the child poverty strategy—yes, there is a strategy, but it appears that that has remained static since 2015.

I turn now to the issue of the school uniform grant, and the Government has announced that they intend to scrap this grant at a time when children and families are fighting against the increasing challenges of all kinds that they’re facing. In Gwynedd, thanks to the Plaid Cymru policy, the council will continue to provide this crucially important grant, despite the cut from Government. More than 800 children will continue to receive support from the council in order to assist parents who have difficulty in meeting the financial demands of school uniforms.

I am very proud that Gwynedd Council has been able to continue to provide this grant that so many families rely on. A total of 842 young people were supported in Gwynedd during 2016-17. At that time, they were supported through the Welsh Government too, but that support is to be scrapped. But the support will continue in Gwynedd, and more than 800 pupils will be able to benefit from that. The council is doing that because one of the founding principles of Plaid Cymru is to support disadvantaged children, young people and families. School uniforms are crucial items, not 'nice-to-haves'.

Gwynedd Council has also scrapped zero-hours contracts for all staff, apart from those who wish to have such contracts, and have introduced the living wage universally. That's what Plaid Cymru does when we hold the levers of power and where we are in government.

So, to conclude, we need action—we need urgent action. This afternoon, Plaid Cymru has proposed a number of practical ways that could be adopted. The first thing that needs to be done is to draw up a strategic plan to eradicate poverty. Elements of welfare could be devolved so that we could create a more humane system. A package of childcare could be created, which includes parents who are unemployed as well as those in work, in order to provide equal access to early years education. We should scrap zero-hours contracts in public services and introduce the living wage.

Those are just a few ideas that could be implemented immediately if there was the will here to do so. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I now call the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care, Huw Irranca-Davies?

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. My apologies for being a bit premature earlier. Can I begin by genuinely welcoming the focus on child poverty within this debate? It's right that we focus on this, because we know that child poverty, unresolved, can diminish the early life of a child and further diminish their life chances as they journey to and through adulthood. 

Let me just turn, right at the outset, to some of the contributions that have been made already and thank everybody for making those contributions. Bethan rightly identified the scourge of child poverty and the negative impact as well of the tax and benefit changes. She challenged us on having a sense of complacency—I'll turn to that in a moment, because I do not believe we have—but also challenged us not to sit on the sidelines. I'll turn to that in a moment as well, because I do not believe that this Welsh Government is sitting on the sidelines. She asked, 'What about the administration of UK Government policy?' I'll turn directly to that, but can I say that what we shouldn't be is the administrators of UK Conservative Government policy? I'll turn to that in a moment.

Mark Isherwood contributed to the debate and talked about the stubbornly high child poverty in Wales. He's right, and that's why we can't be complacent. Child poverty is stubbornly high, but let me just correct and put on the record here that it isn't correct, first of all, to say, as some people might suggest, that child poverty in Wales has increased. In fact, the most recent households-below-average-income data published in March this year show that relative child poverty has fallen by two percentage points in Wales for the three years to 2016-17 after housing costs were paid, compared to figures—last year, sorry, compared to figures published in 2017.

Also, it's not correct to say that child poverty levels in Wales stand above the UK level, because those same HBAI data published in March show that relative child poverty after housing costs in the UK currently stands at 30 per cent.

Mark Isherwood rose—

I will take the intervention.

Will you agree that the End Child Poverty local authority data published in January, which broadened the definition of child poverty to take account of wider demographic factors, found that, in fact, Wales did have the highest child poverty in the UK? The reduction in child poverty I referred to came from Government statistics, from Government databases, and not from something I pulled out of the air or from some party briefing document.

We're playing around with different datasets here, but those statistics are certain and they're independent and they're proven. However, where we can agree is that it is too high—it is stubbornly high—and we need to use all of the levers in our control to actually bring child poverty down.

If I can turn to some of the remarks from Llyr, he, like many others, highlighted the pernicious impacts of child poverty, and took the intervention from Mike Hedges, who flagged up, actually, the beneficial impact that the Flying Start programme has—indeed had—in those areas it's in. We need to make sure that those same effects are being seen outside of the Flying Start areas, either with that programme or other programmes that we have as well. In fact, our very well-targeted childcare offer, as I said when I appeared before the committee—. The majority of those who are making use within the first year, of the seven pilot authorities, are those below the Welsh median salary—it's those who are actually most in need of having that childcare offer who are the ones who are taking that offer within the first year that we've been assessing that, but we'll bring forward some analysis in the autumn as well.

David, can I simply say, with respect, it is not a lame excuse to point to the responsibility of the UK Government in this as well? We have levers in our control; we do not have all the levers to actually play with. But it was good to hear you praise the efforts of Welsh Government on things like tackling zero hours.

Leanne, I understand that you focused on identifying how many words are in certain documents on poverty. What you didn't do, I have to say, is look at the policies within those strategies that are being delivered now on the ground that are making a difference; the actual tools and mechanisms. I'll turn to some of them in a moment.

Siân talked about how this Welsh Government doesn't have, actually, a policy and strategy around tackling child poverty. Well, we do, and we will refresh it and we will bring forward the progress on that, actually, in 2019.

Siân Gwenllian rose—

But what we also have, Siân, is a cross-Government programme of raising prosperity for all. You also raised the issue, by the way—. I'm not sure if I have time to—

Are you willing to take an intervention?

I will in a moment. Siân, you also raised the issue of the school uniforms grant. Well, the Cabinet Secretary for Education has already made clear her intention to introduce an improved scheme from September 2018—a scheme that will be more flexible, more relevant for the needs of disadvantaged learners. My officials have already been involved in discussions regarding the development of this new scheme with the Cabinet Secretary for Education, who will make an announcement during the coming weeks. And I'm happy to take the intervention.

I am talking about a strategic plan across Government—an overview across Government with clear targets on tackling poverty. Now, I recognise that there's a child poverty strategy but, of course, children are part of families and we need a strategy to tackle poverty that is over and above that. There isn't one, and it's scandalous that there isn't one. 

I agree that poverty is a scandal whatever level it is at, but I'll turn to some of the practical policies that actually change that as opposed to big words in strategies and what is actually going on. It's without any sense of complacency because we actually need to do more. 

So, let me first of all say where we can agree. It is our clear moral duty to do all in our power to tackle poverty through the tools we have to hand in Wales. But it is also right that we recognise, as we do in our amendment, that the responsibility for tackling child poverty lies with both the Welsh and UK Governments. For the sake of those young children, we need the UK Government to play its part too. That's why I, the leader of the house and the Minister for Housing and Regeneration wrote seeking urgent UK Government response to the Equality and Human Rights Commission report, which predicted that it was UK Government tax and welfare policies that could plunge 50,000 more children into poverty. It's the latest of several respected organisations asserting that the UK Government's tax and welfare reforms in relation to disadvantaged families will drive a significant rise in child poverty in the coming years despite what we are doing, and despite what they're doing in Scotland, by the way, as well.

But we can make a difference through our policy in Wales. As a Government, we recognise the fundamental importance of investment in the early years, which can transform children's long-term health and development and their achievements in later life. Our child poverty strategy underlines the importance of a preventative approach to tackling child poverty through cross-Government action, and our national strategy, 'Prosperity for All', referred to earlier, highlights early years and employability as priority areas for tackling poverty. It sets out not just our vision but the key actions we will take during this Assembly term to ensure that children in Wales from all backgrounds, whatever their circumstances, have the very best start in life.

We welcomed the Save the Children report that was published in January this year. It was challenging, but, as that report recognised, Welsh Government has indeed invested in a wide range of early years programmes. Amongst these are the groundbreaking Flying Start and Families First programmes. If Tessa Jowell is looking down at us now, she will be looking down at the Flying Start programmes that we are delivering here in Wales and expanding with pride, and will be looking across the border and wondering what's happened to Sure Start.

They have been life changing for some families with high needs: our investment in early years development and education; the pupil development grant, which has narrowed the educational attainment between children who receive free school meals and those who do not; our universal Healthy Child Wales programme for nought to seven-year-olds; Supporting Families, helping our children realise their potential; the educational foundational phase for three and four-year-olds, helping our children thrive; the childcare offer, which even in the pilot stage—my apologies, Dirprwy Lywydd, I took a couple of interventions. Are you happy that I continue?  

You can have about 30 seconds to wind up. 

Okay. Well, let me turn to the aspect of devolution of welfare or administrative control. We do not support this for reasons of principle and hard-headed practicality. On principle, we believe that we should all be entitled to an equal claim from a welfare state to provide support when needed and to tackle poverty in Swansea and in Swindon, in Bangor but also in Bognor. In practical terms also, a broader based welfare support system provides resilience against localised economic shocks and cyclical downturns that a smaller system simply cannot, and we should, Dirprwy Lywydd, be extremely cautious of rushing to changes in the social security system before assessing the costs. The costs to Scotland are significant, including £66 million for administration and a one-off amount of £200 million for implementation of their newly devolved welfare powers. Should we be putting those into front-line services that tackle poverty? We can do more, Dirprwy Lywydd, without seeking further devolution. We can do more, and we intend to. Breaking the cycle of deprivation—

You've had longer than 30 seconds.

I'm closing, Dirprwy Lywydd. But breaking that cycle, Dirprwy Lywydd, of deprivation and poverty is a long-term commitment of this Welsh Government. It underpins our national strategy and our responsibility to make a difference to people's lives. It's a moral imperative too, but the UK Government must play its part.

Thank you very much. Can I now call on Bethan Sayed to reply to the debate? Bethan. 

Diolch. Thank you to everybody who has contributed here today. I'd just like to start on the point that was made with regard to the devolution of administration of welfare and the points that were made in interventions by Rebecca Evans and Huw Irranca-Davies. I don't understand the rationale, because it seems to suggest—. We're in the situation where these welfare reform cuts will be going ahead anyway and, surely, if we recognise the fact that we don't have control over what happens in the rest of the UK, then we'd want to have control over the proportion of welfare that we could possibly have influence over. In fact, we recognise that on the equalities committee. We recognise the fact that, when we had evidence from those who came down from Scotland to give evidence, you could change the nature of the debate by having those powers within your grasp. Please read that evidence—we're all about telling each other to read specific documents in this Chamber—please read that evidence to show how we can do things differently, because, no, of course we don't want those welfare reforms to happen, but they are going to happen, and surely you would want to have those powers here in Wales as opposed to them being delivered upon us by those who are not in touch, who are not able to understand the lives of the people of Wales.

Thank you for taking the intervention. If we thought that simply devolving administration or something else in terms of this would suddenly solve the problem, then it would be something worth going about. But would you agree with me that, actually, in looking at that, we also need to be very careful of the unintended consequences and the costs that would come with that and the danger to the social union that actually protects the fabric?

I've addressed the costs until I'm red in the face in this Chamber, and I don't want to go over the cost issue, quite frankly. We've explained quite clearly the fiscal framework and Scottish Labour seemed to support that. It's one tool; I'm not saying it's a panacea, but surely it is one tool in the box of wider issues that we can have control over here in Wales.

With regard to some of the other contributions, I'll quickly go through some of them. Mark Isherwood gave us quite a lot of information on poverty, but I didn't hear him taking any responsibility for anything that the Conservatives are doing on a UK level, and perhaps some humility would be nice on occasion. [Laughter.]

Llyr, we see—

Did you read your leader's letter last week?

What? Do we want to have a debate about that here now? I don't think that's appropriate.

No, there's no across-the-Chamber debate, please. Carry on.

Llyr Huws Gruffydd talked of deficient communication skills that emerge in the education system if people don't get the same opportunities, with 60 per cent of young people in the justice system having communication problems. That's why we as a party say that we need the powers here in Wales, in order to deal with that situation.

In the context of childcare, we've heard again on the equalities committee that this should be a universal offer for parents, because when it starts at the age of three or four, parents will have lost the opportunity to go back to work. That is the basis for our view in that regard.

David Rowlands, you said that welfare reform was not the main cause of poverty and it was lame to blame welfare reform. I think it's lame not to want to do anything about it, quite frankly. So, I'd only agree with you up to a point, and I think that's where we've said, on numerous occasions, that we'd like to try and have some control over that system. But I do agree with you, although I don't agree with UKIP all the time, on the skills agenda and the jobs agenda. I think if we give those possibilities to our young people, that is something that we can support.

Leanne mentioned the rape clause and that universal credit has left many families in desperation, and that 50,000 new people are in poverty as a result of welfare reform. And, again, she made the point about the devolution of the administration of welfare quite strongly, and I think that's something that we won't win here today, but we will continue with that particular argument.

Siân Gwenllian stated there's no clear framework in terms of tackling poverty, that they can't reach targets, and that's perhaps why they don't want those targets in place any longer. I was speaking on child poverty when I was first elected, and those targets were in place for a reason so that we could track what the Welsh Government was doing. Without those targets, that simply isn't possible. Congratulations too to Gwynedd Council who have tried to do away with zero-hours contracts and have restored the school uniform grant in Gwynedd. It's important that we speak about what's happening positively at a local authority level.

I think I'll just finish with the document that we've talked about. Yes, you know, we may discuss how many times poverty is mentioned, but the fact is, there is no tangible way of tracking how we progress within this document. It reads well and it reads like a very good Government document, but we can't then see how we can use any targets to drive our scrutiny of this particular strategy here in the National Assembly for Wales, and I think that's what people outside of this Chamber want us to be able to do. So, if there's an action plan that could emanate from this, which has more detail on targets and on delivery, then I would certainly welcome that, and I don't know if there's something that the Minister has to say on the matter.

Yes, simply to help clarify as part of the debate. So, the key performance indicators remain in place, and one of the things that we are looking at across Government and across Government Ministers are milestones that underpin those key performance indicators. So, we already know things such as the number of people with are entering the NEET category, young pregnancies, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera—some of these key indicators. So, there is work going on to look at what we can do that could actually be measured so we could see progress being made.

Okay. Thank you very much. That's all I wanted to say. Thank you.

Thank you. I'm glad we got to the end of that debate without any further interventions. That's good. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we'll vote on this item in voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.