The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Julie James, amendment 2 in the name of Paul Davies, and amendment 3 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected.

Item 7 is the UKIP debate on university finance, and I call on Michelle Brown to move the motion. Michelle.

Motion NDM6731 Caroline Jones

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Welcomes the UK Government’s proposed review of university finance as announced on 19 February 2018.

2. Notes the reports from the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development titled: 'Over-qualification and skills mismatch in the graduate labour market' and 'The graduate employment gap: expectations versus reality'.

3. Calls on the UK Government and the Welsh Government to:

a) work together to develop a sustainable model for future student finance;

b) abolish tuition fees for STEM, medical and nursing students; and

c) broaden the scope of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales to review degree courses for expected earnings, and publish these reviews to all prospective students.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm pleased to move this motion on behalf of UKIP.

Many students in Wales are being sold a pup. It may be unpleasant to say it, but it's a fact, and there is plenty of independent research to prove it. Sixth-form students are fed out-of-date figures about the higher earnings achieved by graduates to entice them onto the degree courses. Accurate figures about how much more they could earn in their chosen career if they graduate are often not available, just a meaningless average across the entire spectrum of occupations and professions. The student loans system is costing the taxpayer far more than expected because graduate earnings are nowhere near where the calculation suggested they would be. This is not just because of the economic downturn, but also because many lower-starting-salary occupations that were once perfectly well served by diplomas have now had their requisite qualifications turned into degree courses.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Labour, in their amendment, are trying to turn this into an argument about access to university courses. That's a total red herring. This is not about inclusivity, diversity or access. This is about what happens to those who undertake degree courses. It's about making sure that we're actually treating these undergraduates and graduates fairly, and not misleading them by giving them false hopes.

Last year, student loan debt rose to more than £100 billion for the first time, and the Student Loans Company says that the majority of graduates will never pay off their whole student loan debt before it's wiped off 30 years after their graduation. That's a very big figure, £100 billion. A senior economist at NatWest said student debt was rising at a faster pace than any other form of debt, and eclipsed credit card of £68 billion. The senior economist at NatWest said,

'These latest figures show student debt is becoming a greater priority with every passing year. Student debt is the fastest-growing type of borrowing and is rapidly becoming economically significant.'

He predicts that, over the longer term, student loan debt is likely to double to £200 billion in six years.

We often compare ourselves with countries that we see as being less generous than ourselves. We see that people often compare our NHS to the cost of healthcare in the USA and we assume those countries have a less inclusive higher education system than us, yet the average student debt in the US is £27,000, compared with the UK student average debt of more than £32,000. So, even if the argument is about accessibility, it fails from the outset when we have a higher education system that's less accessible then America's because of the higher debt those students are going to be incurring. Clearly, saddling graduates with a debt that a majority will never be able to pay off is going to have a detrimental effect on their purchasing power and decisions they will make about pensions, investments and buying a house.

The current system, where practically everyone is encouraged onto a debt-laden university path, even for occupations with lower incomes than traditionally those associated with graduates, is a ticking time bomb for the economy, let alone the individual who will find their personal budget adversely impacted for life. The Tory amendment talks about tackling the brain drain from Wales, and I'm not doubting that there is a problem with the brain drain, but the primary cause of that brain drain is the lack of appropriate jobs in Wales. So, it's a little bit off the point, a little bit of a red herring, if I may say so. Whilst I can agree in principle with Diamond's recommendation, incentivising graduates to stay in Wales is largely pointless if they can't find a suitable job in Wales, so Plaid's amendment is a bit of a red herring too.

Alistair Jarvis, chief executive of Universities UK, has claimed that, and I quote,

'Somebody who goes to university will earn on average about £10,000 a year more than somebody who hasn't got a degree.' 

End of quote. But less than a year ago, the BBC reported figures from the Office of National Statistics revealing that where it comes a graduate aged between 21 and 30, the earnings gap is a little less, at £6,000. And a 2014 survey showed that one in four graduates were only earning £20,000 a decade after graduating, when the average salary for all workers, graduates and non-degree holders, was £26,500. It's clearly unacceptable that a quarter of graduates also earned only £11,500 in the first year after completing their degree and only £16,500 after three years. So, these claims that are being made for degree courses, and I've asked questions about this in this place before—you know, where is the analysis of how useful these degree courses are going to be? How much money is each degree course actually going to garner the graduate graduating from that course? Unless sixth formers are given accurate information about what kind of investment they're going to have to make and the return they're going to get from it in terms of salary, then they're operating on pure guesswork, and they're being thrown to the dogs.

The idea that an increase in graduate numbers is proof that we're more inclusive and have increased social mobility is sheer nonsense. We need a drastic overhaul of university finance so that we can keep Wales's brightest in Wales and so that we don't saddle thousands upon thousands of our youngsters with debts that will affect their entire life. The UKIP proposals we've put forward will achieve the results our students deserve and I urge Members to back them. Thank you.

I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Julie James.

Amendment 1—Julie James

Delete all and replace with:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes the Welsh Government’s higher education funding review led by Professor Sir Ian Diamond published on 27 September 2016.

2. Notes that the Diamond Review found that living costs were the main barrier to those making the choice about whether to go to university.

3. Welcomes the new student finance package for 2018/19 launched by the Welsh Government which means:

a) students will receive maintenance support equivalent to the National Living Wage – the most generous in the UK;

b) every eligible student can claim a minimum grant of £1,000 that they will not have to pay back; and

c) Wales is the first country in Europe to introduce equivalent maintenance support across full-time and part-time undergraduates.

This will be extended to post-graduate students in 2019.

Amendment 1 moved.

I formally move.

I call on Darren Millar to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Darren Millar.

Amendment 2—Paul Davies

Delete point 3 and replace with:

Regrets that Wales is experiencing a brain-drain, with more university graduates leaving Wales than settling in the country.

Recognises the success of Wales’s further education institutions in supporting the retention of talent in the Welsh economy. 

Regrets the lack of level 6+ apprenticeship programmes available in Wales to upskill the workforce.

Calls on the Welsh Government to: 

a) Provide greater incentives for university graduates to settle in Wales once they have finished their degrees; 

b) Encourage greater engagement between higher education and further education institutions to promote talent retention; and 

c) Promote greater availability of level 6+ apprenticeships programmes in Wales.  

Amendment 2 moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank UKIP for bringing forward this debate this afternoon? I move the amendment, which has been tabled in the name of my colleague Paul Davies, on the order paper.

I listened very carefully to what Michelle Brown had to say, and I have to say, I agree with a lot of what you said in terms of the need to make sure that we have those jobs here in Wales for people who exit their university courses to be able to go into. Because we've got some very startling statistics, actually, on the brain drain, with tens of thousands more graduates leaving Wales than actually staying in Wales—a net loss, just between 2013 and 2016, of over 20,000 students, which is a huge, huge number, and we want to retain that talent. Forty per cent of the graduates who stay in Wales for work are in non-graduate jobs as well, which I think is also a tragedy, because, of course, they're not putting to use the skills and the knowledge that they're learning while they're in those universities.

So, we certainly need to do more, but it's not just about creating jobs, it's about making sure that we've got courses that are also attractive to employers, which are giving people the right knowledge base and giving people the skills that those employers want. Because, of course, we are receiving people in from other universities from outside Wales who are coming to work here, and welcome as they are, it would be great to have our home-grown talent going into those jobs. So, we know we've got to do more. Seventy-two per cent of businesses that were surveyed back in 2015 said that they found it really difficult, actually, to get people with the right skills when they went to the marketplace looking for individuals. So, clearly, there's a mismatch between what is being delivered by our education system more widely and the skills that our businesses actually need. 

Further education colleges seem to do a better job, actually, of getting that match right, and that's perhaps because of the stronger links that they have within their local and regional economies with businesses. I think that those sorts of strengths within the further education sector perhaps need to be more evidenced in the university sector, in the way that they engage with businesses. I know, to be fair to Universities Wales and the universities that we have here, that there is some good work going on with the private sector in terms of trying to ensure that they're meeting people's needs, but, clearly, the evidence suggests that that work isn't paying the dividends that it needs to. 

So, in terms of the STEM subjects, I was very pleased to note the reference in the UKIP motion to the need to provide free courses for medical and nursing students. One of the things that my party put forward in our last Assembly manifesto, actually, was that there ought to be some sort of bursary scheme for medical students. Of course, we supported the continuation of the nursing bursary scheme as well here in Wales, but you've got to make sure there's a return on that investment for the Welsh taxpayer. So, one thing that we wouldn't like to do is just give that cash and allow them to do the courses and then go and work elsewhere. So, there's got to be an opportunity to retain them again within the Welsh NHS so that we can get some return for the taxpayer, and that's why we've tabled the amendments in the way that we've tabled them today. 

Just in terms of apprenticeships, we've made reference to level 6 apprenticeships in our motion. One of the things that I think is a growing disparity in Wales versus England is that there are a huge number of level 6 apprenticeship courses available over the border that people can access. For some reason, we've been very slow to provide those opportunities for people here in Wales, and we know that those higher level apprenticeships are things that employers are looking for. So, I would be grateful, Cabinet Secretary, if in your response to this debate you could just tell us what particularly the Welsh Government is doing to expand the provision of level 6 apprenticeships. We've done a very good job, to be fair, in Wales in terms of creating those other apprenticeships at level 4, but in terms of getting those up to level 6 and 7, I think we've got a lot more work to do. 

So, in closing, I would urge people in this Chamber to recognise the good stuff that is going on, but just to err on the side of some caution on the lack of engagement, really, between the private sector and the university sector, and the fact that there can be much more focused work on that in order to make sure that our universities are producing the graduates that can go on then to work in Welsh businesses so that we can retain that talent and not suffer from the brain drain that we've suffered in recent years.

I call on Llyr Gruffydd to move amendment 3, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Amendment 3—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new sub-point at end of point 3:

d) Implement the recommendation of the Diamond review for the Welsh Government to incentivise students to remain in Wales to study, or return to Wales after graduation.

Amendment 3 moved.

Thank you, Llywydd. May I thank you for the opportunity to contribute to this debate and to move the amendment in the name of Plaid Cymru? The topic of the amendment won’t surprise many, I'm sure. It's an issue that we raise regularly as a party in this context. It is a very important issue, and that’s been reflected in the comments that we have heard in the debate thus far, namely the need to ensure that, yes, students from Wales have the best possible opportunities to go to the world’s best universities and to have those important experiences, but also the importance, then, that we do everything possible to ensure that that investment in their future brings some kind of benefit to us here in Wales.

Now, we need to address the issue that we currently have—that net loss of graduates that we've heard about, and also the skills gaps that we have in vital sectors such as medicine and the STEM subjects. The Universities and Colleges Admissions Service's data has shown a decline of around 14 per cent between 2015 and 2017 in the number of Welsh domiciled students applying to study medicine for all UK medicine courses, so there is an issue there that clearly needs tackling. And, more generally, we heard reference earlier to the report by the Resolution Foundation think tank back in August last year, telling us that Wales attracted nearly 24,000 graduates between 2013 and 2016, but that over 44,000 left, which was the net difference that Darren Millar referred to—over 20,000 students. Indeed, only two other parts of the UK had a worse figure than Wales, and they were Yorkshire and Humber and the north-east of England. This hasn't been recognised as an issue, I know, and Professor Diamond in his review certainly recognised the need to attract graduates to live and to work in Wales. Indeed, he recommended, as part of his work, that the Welsh Government incentivises students to bring or retain their skills to the benefit of Wales, and he outlined how the Welsh Government should consider maybe looking at permitting partial loan cancellation for those working in jobs in Wales that require a loan payment. But, of course, we're still waiting for definitive action from the Government in that respect. 

Now, Plaid Cymru has supported, of course, the move in terms of the way that funding is given, from tuition fee grant to maintenance grant, and we are very much aware that those upfront costs are a barrier, or the living costs are a barrier to many from obtaining the university education that they want to receive. But we have to tackle the loss of vital skills and knowledge within the Welsh economy, as we see young people leaving to study elsewhere and not, of course, very often returning to Wales.  

Now, I want to recognise that the Government, to a certain extent, accepted the principle that action is needed in this area, because we can see what’s happening in the context of the funding of Master’s degrees over the next year. From what I understand, the Government will provide £3,000 to students from Wales to study in Wales, and that will be implemented in various different ways in different universities in the year to come, and then, of course, there will be a more uniform process across Wales, if I’ve understood things correctly, which will be introduced from there on in.

But we then need to see, therefore—if we accept that principle, we do need to ensure that we learn lessons and identify from the data what impact that kind of incentive has on decisions made by that particular cohort. I would like to hear how the Welsh Government will measure the impact of this assessment on the decisions taken by the students in terms of where they study their Master’s. Then, perhaps, of course, that might strengthen the argument in extending it to a broader cohort in the undergraduate sector as well. And certainly, that is something that Diamond mentioned, as I’ve already mentioned earlier.

But, of course, it isn't just Diamond who's been highlighting some of these issues. In terms of targeting specific skills gaps, the evaluation of the Seren network suggested that, and I quote, 

'The historical downward trend in the number of Welsh domiciled applicants studying for Medicine would suggest that there may be a need for targeted intervention to support students applying for specific, competitive university degree places.'

And that evaluation recommended that consideration be given to agreeing a definitive list annually of universities' departments and courses to be included in the Seren network, which could include all medicine, dentistry and veterinary courses. 

Now, targeting young people for these particular courses, of course, is important, but doing so in conjunction with the kinds of incentives that Diamond and others have been talking about is something that I think we need to pursue. That, of course, would as well strengthen our higher education institutions, of course, in that it would ensure a greater number of students within their establishments. And the more students we can encourage to stay in Wales, then, clearly, not only does that benefit the HE sector, but it benefits the Welsh economy as well. 

According to the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, nearly a third of all graduates, and two thirds of those studying law, end up in jobs paying less than £20,000 a year, and while graduates are less likely to be unemployed, many end up working in sectors where their degree is irrelevant. We have to ensure that the costs associated with achieving a degree do not outweigh the benefits of studying an extra year or so. We also have to ensure that the supply of university courses matches the demand of the job market. Of course, young people should be free to study whatever they wish, but they should be equipped with all the facts, which is why we are calling for HEFCW to review degree courses for expected earnings and to publish the results. Prospective students should be equipped with all the facts to enable them to make fully informed choices.

We should also utilise student finance to incentivise young people to study for degrees in shortage subjects. Wales has a massive shortage of GPs, nurses, radiographers and endoscopists, yet we are not doing enough to encourage more young people into these fields. If we were to abolish tuition fees for medical students, for nursing students and those studying STEM subjects, we would incentivise more people to become radiographers or endoscopists. More young people would consider becoming a doctor or a nurse if they were unsaddled from student debt. Our NHS has shortages in many areas, and by eliminating tuition fees, we could encourage young people to study for an appropriate degree, rather than risk the burden of debt and a low-paid job at the end of years of hard work and study.

We also have a shortage of carers and a range of occupations within our health and care sector for which a degree is unnecessary. We have to reach out to young people and highlight the fact that you don’t always need a degree to get a good job. We have to place as much emphasis upon vocational training as we do upon higher education. Our education system is supposed to equip young people with the skills to enter the labour market. We are doing a disservice to many young people by solely focusing on higher education. We have to equip young people with the right skills and the whole picture when it comes to the labour market. We need more doctors, nurses, physiotherapists, occupational therapists, computer programmers and data analysts, not more young people with a law degree, thousands of pounds in debt and earning below the national average for graduate earnings.

I urge Members to support the motion before you today, so that we can take steps to ensure that we incentivise young people to study subjects where their skills will be sought and rewarded. Thank you.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Kirsty Williams. 

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I was mildly surprised, but nevertheless delighted, to receive the text of the motion that has been tabled by UKIP for debate this afternoon because it provides me with an opportunity to promote the Welsh Government's innovative approach to higher education and student finance in Wales, and to highlight the shortcomings of the UK Government's approach to student support in England. It also demonstrates how UKIP would like to turn Wales into a nation that only provides opportunities for those with the most resources, and when Michelle Brown opened this debate by saying it was not about access or equity, of course it's not: it never is about access or equity for UKIP. In fact, I doubt whether they know the meanings of the words.

I am therefore proud, Presiding Officer, to start with a summary of the reforms that the Welsh Government is introducing this September. This was in direct response to an independent review of student support and higher education, chaired by Professor Sir Ian Diamond, and has been welcomed by universities, the National Union of Students, and many stakeholders across the nation.

The new system will deliver the following: a fair and progressive system of support that ensures that students have access to support equivalent to the national living wage whilst they study—under this system, those most in need will receive the greatest help from this Government; universal entitlement to a grant of £1,000 a year for every student, as well as access to a partial write-off of maintenance loans of up to £1,500 when students start to repay their loan; a sustainable funding model for higher education and student finance; and a sensible, sustainable solution to increase funding provision for STEM subjects. Of course, it also offers parity of support for part-time and full-time undergraduates and postgraduate students—the first of its type in the UK; indeed, the first of its type in Europe—and increased funding to the higher education sector, so that it can implement Welsh Government priorities such as expanding expensive subjects, expanding part-time provision, investing in quality-related research, knowledge transfer and widening access to higher education.

The Welsh Government has also recently issued consultations on the support arrangements for medical and healthcare students, and I am slightly alarmed that the Members of UKIP seem to be blissfully unaware of the current NHS bursary scheme that supports not only our nurses, but a wide range of healthcare professionals. And maybe UKIP would like to look at the Government's current consultation on the future of these arrangements. [Interruption.] Darren.

Thank you for taking the intervention, and I acknowledge that there is a bursary scheme that is there, but of course the current scheme does not fully reimburse the costs of young people going to university. I think that's the difference here, and I would urge you, as a Government, to look at the opportunity for full reimbursement of the costs of tuition and any additional costs of young people going to university in return for a training contract. And I think that's the thing: you have to have this reinvestment back in the health service in return.

Well, of course, those signing up to receive a Welsh NHS Government bursary do indeed sign up to a commitment to work in the Welsh NHS, and I am looking to expand that, for instance, with regard to training places for educational psychologists, which we fund. And I would point out, Darren, I'm not about to take any lectures from a Conservative politician about nurse bursaries when we have seen the devastation of nurse education across the border because of your Government's abolition of the nurse bursary system. [Interruption.]

Now, if I could make progress, Presiding Officer. If I could make some progress.

We have also published 'Public Good and a Prosperous Wales—the next steps,' outlining in more detail our proposals for the structure and operation of the new tertiary education and research commission for Wales. This approach is significantly different from that taken by the UK Government for English students. In England, there are no maintenance grants, less overall support is available, and students from the poorest backgrounds are left with the highest level of debt. Not here in Wales.

However, ensuring stability and sustainability for higher education students and institutions is only one part of our national mission of reform to marry equity with excellence in our education system. Our employability plan takes actions in four distinct themes, providing an individualised approach to employment support, underlining the responsibility of employers to support staff, closing the skills gap and preparing for a radically changing labour market.

Individualised support gives advisers the autonomy and the flexibility to address the needs, strengths and ambitions of persons preparing for employment. We will work with universities, colleges, schools and Careers Wales to identify how they can encourage learners to undertake courses that would be of benefit to them and of benefit to the Welsh economy. And we will also explore how we can retain students who are trained in Wales to remain in Wales, or encourage those who train elsewhere to return.

It is important that, prior to undertaking academic or vocational courses, students are aware of the job opportunities and the earning potential at the end of their course. And, again, I am somewhat alarmed that the UKIP spokesperson seems to be blissfully unaware of the longitudinal education outcomes data. In fact, Presiding Officer, I'll send her the link so she can see that data for herself.

Welsh higher and further education has an enormous amount to be proud of and we should take every opportunity to recognise and celebrate success when we see it. The challenges now facing the higher education sector in Wales and indeed, in the rest of the UK, are perhaps the most significant in history. We believe that a planned collaborative approach to higher education is more appropriate to address the social and economic challenges we face in Wales; that's more effective in building on existing institutional strengths and more equitable in delivering outcomes for students and for Welsh society.

Darren, I can confirm that we have made additional resources available to HEFCW to invest and develop higher level apprenticeships, especially in the field of ICT, computing and engineering.

To sum up, Presiding Officer, as a Government, we have a comprehensive, inclusive, innovative vision for the future of higher and further education in Wales that encompasses strengthening the structure, delivery and quality of HE and FE provision; improving our research base and our research capacity; improving leadership and governance at institutional and national levels; a new funding and student support arrangement consistent with our planned approach to provision; and creating a more learner-focused HE and FE sector that meets the needs and the expectations of students and enhances their future employability. I would like to finish by welcoming the UK Government's review of post-18 education, and I would invite the review panel to consider the progressive, the fair and the sustainable approach that we have adopted here in Wales.

I call on Gareth Bennett to reply to the debate. Gareth Bennett.

Diolch, Llywydd, and thanks to everyone who contributed to what turned out to be a fairly lively debate. It warmed up a bit at the end, but it was interesting all the way through, I must stress that. 

Michelle Brown opened the debate. She talked about the lack of relevant information for prospective students when they're going through the school system and the lack of information regarding things like comparison of courses and the details of likely earnings—the kind of information that you really want prospective students to be able to have so that they can compare different universities, different courses. This is surely a good thing. Obviously, the Minister addressed this point in her contribution at the end, so I will go back to what she said when I come on to sum up her remarks. So, that point was raised by Michelle, who says that there isn't enough adequate information for students going through the system—prospective university students. I'm aware that the UK Government is starting to address this issue, so we will await developments in that direction.

Other points made by Michelle: the student loan system is not financially sustainable because the earnings that many graduates are now making are not what was predicted when these schemes were modelled back in the 1980s, so, effectively, many loans will have to be written off in the long term. Student debt is rapidly rising was another point that was made, and it is now possibly the greatest form of debt that we have in the UK, or at least greater than many forms of debt that were previously regarded as being dangerous, such as credit card debts and so on. We are now reaching those dangerous levels with student loan debt. And the other point that was made was that there are not enough graduate jobs to go around, so we are now having too many students graduating and there are not the high-paying graduate jobs for them to go into. I would add that that's a problem not just in Wales, but in the UK as a whole.

Darren Millar: I think he broadly agreed with many of the points that were made by us. He did also concentrate on the issue of the brain drain—too many graduates leaving Wales. But, of course, that is also related, as I'm sure he made this link consciously, to the lack of decent graduate jobs in Wales, because he cited the statistics that 40 per cent of Welsh graduates who remain here are ending up in non-graduate jobs, leading to the unfortunate term that we have today—he didn't mention the term—of GINGO: graduates in non-graduate occupations. Darren made another good point: he emphasised the roles of FE colleges in their interaction with businesses, because they have better links, traditionally, with the private sector. So, that is an important point. Bursaries for nurses were cited as a manifesto commitment that the Conservatives made in the past, and also the need was made clear for high-level apprenticeships in Wales, which everybody agreed with. That's not in our points, but we do agree with that.

Llyr Gruffydd for Plaid Cymru acknowledged that the issue was, indeed, pwysig iawn—very important. He noted statistics showing that the skills gap in medicine in Wales was growing and that we needed the Welsh Government to make an assessment of student statistics on targeted intervention to see how well that worked. That could include things like dentistry and veterinary courses for extra funding for students, and we agree with those ideas. We would broadly support those initiatives, as indeed we would support the call that Plaid have made in the past for a medical college in north Wales—things like that. These are important things that the Welsh Government should think about. 

Caroline mentioned that we need HEFCW to review all of the information relating to graduates and publish the results so that we do have a transparent overview of the results of graduates leaving courses and what their likely earnings are going to be. Caroline also noted the shortage in Wales of NHS specialists in various disciplines, not just doctors and nurses, and this can be addressed by abolishing tuition fees in these targeted areas. There is also the need to encourage young people, again, into vocational education, and two issues that sprung to mind from Caroline's contribution—the phrase 'parity of esteem', which I know the Minister has used, and other Ministers have used it recently, so that needs to be something meaningful, not just a word form; and I think we need to perhaps review the careers advice that school pupils are given as they go through the system, and we perhaps need careers officers to interact more with the FE colleges and the vocational side, so we do have school students directed in those channels, rather than always being directed towards universities.

Now, the Government Minister, Kirsty Williams, she mounted a rebuttal of our proposals and cited that the Government's policies were working. She cited the Diamond report and its welcome by the various stakeholders in the education establishment but, of course, many of the people in the education establishment like the idea of funnelling more and more students into higher education, so that may have been an element that you missed. She also stressed the fact that the least affluent students will get the most help, but she does seem more focused on getting more students into higher education. The whole point of our debate today is that the expansion of higher education is not working.

We've also had a slight—[Interruption.] We've had a—[Interruption.] We've had a bit of a—[Interruption.] We've had a bit of a dispute—. We've had a bit of a dispute over this issue of transparency of information. The Minister has made a case that there is enough information for prospective students. Darren Millar did challenge that in his intervention, so that is something that we can perhaps investigate at closer detail in another forum. Thank you again, everyone, for contributing to the debate, and diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.