1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:37 pm on 12 June 2018.
Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood.
Diolch, Llywydd. Can the First Minister confirm whether or not the Labour Party supports our membership of the European Economic Area?
It is one option that we need to look at and that is something, as a Government, we have done. It was why I went to Norway, indeed, to see how the situation in Norway worked. An interesting model—not one that fits Wales exactly but, nevertheless, if Norway can work to a model like that I see no reason why the UK can't construct its own model.
We are running out of time, First Minister, and you have described Labour's position as flexible. Now, there's nothing flexible about £5 billion being wiped off the Welsh economy; there's nothing flexible about Welsh jobs and wages disappearing and never returning; there's nothing flexible about rolling the dice on our biggest international market for agriculture, steel and over 60 per cent of all Welsh exports. Even the joint White Paper 'Securing Wales' Future' states that the least damaging option for Wales is inside the European Economic Area. We co-authored that report on the understanding that you wanted to stand with us against an extreme Tory Brexit. Why are you abandoning your own analysis? And do you believe that your Westminster leader is right to clear the path for the Tories to pull us out of the single market?
I am the First Minister of Wales; I'm not responsible for what happens at Westminster. What I can say is this: our position has not changed. Membership of the EEA is an important option that needs to be kept open. What is absolutely non-negotiable to my mind—and I know she'll agree with this—is that we need to stay within the customs union and, secondly, of course, to have full and unfettered access to the single market. The position hasn't changed from when we both authored that document.
You are the First Minister of Wales, you are also a member of the Labour Party, and I would imagine that you should have some influence. Now, Plaid Cymru MPs will tomorrow vote to save jobs and our economy by staying in the European Economic Area. Unlike Labour, we will stand up to the Tories and give it our utmost to stop an extreme Tory Brexit that will be so disastrous for Wales. If you let your party drag us out of the single market, you will be ignoring your own White Paper, your own experts, your own analysis. In fact, you'll be ignoring members of your own Cabinet. Both the Labour MP for Pontypridd and your own Cabinet Secretary for local government put it perfectly when they said that Labour has created an 'open goal' for the Tories, and Wales will be damaged as a result. So, what will it be, First Minister? Will you back the comments of the MP for Pontypridd and your Cabinet Secretary, or will you continue to toe the London Labour line, putting the interests of your own party before the interests of your own country?
It's an extraordinary comment, because, in order to provide any evidence at all to back that up, she would have to show that, somehow, I have opposed membership of the EEA—I have not, nor has the Government—secondly, that, somehow, I am opposed to remaining in the customs union, when, in fact, I'm one of its staunchest advocates, because I know full well what would happen in Ireland if that were to happen; thirdly, as she will know, I have always argued, as has she, for full and unfettered access to the single market. The Welsh Government's position has not changed, and we will continue to make the case to those elsewhere in the UK who are members of our party. But we are in Government in Wales. Our position is clear, the position has not changed from when we authored the White Paper, and I make it absolutely clear: Wales's future belongs in the UK, which she does not believe; secondly, within the customs union, to my mind, within the single market as well, because that means full and unfettered access to the single market—not within the EU, because people voted for that not to happen, but it doesn't mean that we need to have a chaotic Brexit based on flag-waving nationalism, which is what some in the Conservative Party advocate, rather than a sensible, pragmatic Brexit that works for Wales. That's what we want, and I hope that's what she wants.
Leader of the opposition, Andrew R.T. Davies.
Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, last week, the chief executive of Qatar airlines made some very unhelpful and disparaging remarks about whether a woman would be able to fulfil his role. You as First Minister have rightly identified that you as a Government, and I'm sure everyone in this Chamber, want Wales to be the most feminine friendly country and allow pathways to every opportunity in Wales, irrespective of whatever sex you are. What representations did you make to the chief executive of Qatar airlines about these comments, given that they are a strategic partner of yours and, not only that, you have put a lot of public money available to that airline to develop the routes into Cardiff Airport?
Well, clearly, I don't agree with his words. He is the chief executive of an airline, not the head of a Government. We will continue to make the case, both within the UK and beyond, to ensure that equality becomes something that is entrenched in societies around the world.
Sadly, from that answer, First Minister, you give an indication that you made no representations whatsoever to the chief executive or the airline about these remarks. If it was a small business in Wales, or a medium-sized business in Wales, I'm sure that, given the social contract that you've developed, you would be, obviously, demonstrating your dislike of the comments that were made and withdrawing that support from that small or medium-sized business. Another indication of the double standards here in Wales is the report today around Pinewood and the money that the Welsh Government made available to Pinewood to develop the facility in St Mellons. You talked of at the time, in 2014, that there was the potential for £90 million to come into the Welsh economy; there was the potential for 2,000 jobs to be created by this development. We know about 50 jobs have been created and, at the moment, there's a paper loss of about £9 million, according to the auditor general's figures. What's gone wrong, First Minister?
First of all, around about just over £4 million has been recouped, but many projects are still in progress. You wouldn't expect the whole lot to be recouped in one fell swoop. These are long-term projects, and the money is recouped over a longer period. I just wonder—I have some comments in front of me here, which I wonder if he agrees with:
'The addition of the globally-recognised Pinewood production company to Wales’ already rich film production industry is very welcome.
'An increasing number of blockbuster films are being shot at locations across Wales and Pinewood’s new base will offer even more opportunities to see Wales on film, from which the whole country could benefit....
'This very welcome announcement is further evidence of Wales’ growing reputation, as an ideal venue for filmmakers, with the right skills mix to tantalise future cinema goers and movie fans.'
I agree with those comments. They came from his own party—Suzy Davies.
The comments were made in light of your assertion that this investment could bring in 2,000 jobs, of which we know only 50 have been delivered, and potentially £90 million into the Welsh economy. Who wouldn't welcome such a proposition? But what we've seen with your management and your Government's management of this particular bid is that you have failed to deliver any one of those targets that you set in 2014. But the point that I identified with Qatar Airways, where you have said nothing, the point I identified with Pinewood, another big internationally recognised company, is if you're a small business in Wales and you look at these big companies getting the money and then you're discounted from accessing the support of Welsh Government because you've made such detestable comments, in Qatar's case, or Pinewood's overestimation of the gains to the Welsh economy, you'll be scratching your head today and asking, 'What is the Welsh Government for?' Isn't it the case, First Minister, that during your entire time as First Minister, you've promised much and delivered little?
Unemployment is at 4.4 per cent, which is a historically low level. Contrast that with the Tory years, when it was continuously in double figures. The destruction they wrought is there for all to see. We see a complete lack of ambition from the Conservative benches. They are bereft of ideas, no ambition for our country, not interested in investment projects. Now, he seems to be saying that we should withdraw support from Qatar Airways and let that go. Because they wanted to close the airport anyway, let's be honest. They didn't care whether the airport closed or not, and then jumped onto the bandwagon when the airport started to be successful.
He accuses us of mismanagement. Have a look at the way you've dealt with the railways. Have a look at the shambles you've made of the railways. It's a disgrace what the Tories have done to the railways and the money that's been hosed away—billions of pounds over the years—on a service that is substandard. Contrast that with what we've done as a Government, delivering the best railway service ever for the people of Wales over the next few years.
You look at employment, you look at unemployment figures and how low they are, you look at the fact that we've had the best figures for 30 years of foreign direct investment, you look at the fact that we bought an airport in 2013, which he opposed. They wanted us not to buy the airport, they wanted to leave it close, and now it's up by 50 per cent in terms of passenger numbers. We have intercontinental links, and he accuses us of not doing enough for Wales. Have a good long look at yourselves and the destruction you've wrought as a party.
Leader of the UKIP group, Caroline Jones.
Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, last week, there were some comments in the media with regard to English prisoners in Welsh prisons. Normally, I wouldn't raise this as a matter because the issue of prisons is not devolved to Wales. However, these comments allegedly came from a member of your Government. The Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services is believed to have said that Parc prison, in our region and constituency, should not be used to house English prisoners. First Minister, can you clarify your Government's position on this issue and do you believe that prisons in Wales should only house Welsh prisoners?
First, the Cabinet Secretary is clear that he did not use those words. Secondly, we know that clearly it can't be the case that only Welsh prisoners can be in Welsh prisons. There are some prisons that don't exist in Wales that need to house Welsh prisoners—category A prisons, for example—and we don't have a women's prison either. So, we couldn't create some kind of self-contained prison system under current circumstances, because that would affect us more than anybody.
Thank you for clarifying that, First Minister. As you've rightly said, we have no women's prison in Wales and not a single category A prison. In fact, the prisons are severely overcrowded in Wales. Wales has 4,747 prisoners and only, across the five prisons, has an operational capacity of 3,700. So, a large number of Welsh prisoners are incarcerated in prisons hundreds of miles from home. This is believed to be a significant factor in self-harm and suicide. In your Government's submission to the commission on justice, you appear to be making the case for prisons to be devolved. Is this the case? If so, would a Welsh Government support building new prisons in Wales to relieve the overcrowding and the safety issue regarding staff, the self-harm of prisoners, and to house prisoners closer to home in relation to rehabilitation?
We do think that prisons, along with the rest of the criminal justice system, should be considered for devolution. It would take some time, because clearly we've had an integrated system with England for a long time. But it simply isn't enough for us to say, 'We will take control of the prisons' and carry on with the same policy as before. There is an opportunity now for us to look at a new system of penal policy in order to make sure that we have a policy that's tailored for the needs of Wales. That, to my mind, includes looking at different types of prisons, their sizes, their success in terms of reforming prisoners, and that's all an important part of the consideration of a Welsh penal policy, should prisons be devolved.
Thank you for that, First Minister. I'm sure we can all agree that, in the interests of safety of staff and prisoners regarding self-harm, something does need to be done on the capacity of staff as well—for the staff to be increased in order to provide a safe environment and in order to help with rehabilitation and to prevent reoffending. So, regardless of where the responsibilities over prisons lie, the Welsh Government has a role to play in the rehabilitation, as you've just said, and an effort through the provision of health services, education, housing and employment issues.
So, First Minister, I'm yet to be persuaded that there is a case for devolution of the justice system, prisons in particular, as I don't believe we can go it alone. However, it is clear that there has to be greater co-operation between the Welsh Government and Westminster here. So, what discussions have you had with the UK Government about improving access to rehabilitation services in Welsh prisons, and the impact of overcrowding, which eventually aids reoffending? So, regarding staff shortages and the impact on rehabilitation of prisoners, can you please answer those questions?
Well, it is tricky, because many services that are provided within prisons are devolved services, and it's not the easiest fit to make between a non-devolved service and a devolved service in order to provide those services. We've done it, but there will be easier ways of doing it. She says going it alone; Northern Ireland has a prison system, so does Scotland, and so, for that matter, does the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey. It's not entirely self-contained, and there will always be, to my mind, a case for some of the most dangerous prisoners perhaps to be housed in one or two places, or three probably, around the whole of the UK, rather than us doing it in Wales. We'd have to pay for those prison spaces, but the number of offenders in that category is actually quite low. So, it may well be that we may not want to pursue the option of a category A prison in Wales. But there's no reason in principle or in theory why we couldn't run the justice system ourselves, given the fact that far smaller entities such as Northern Ireland have been doing it for nearly 100 years.
Question 3 [OAQ52330] has been withdrawn, so question 4—Paul Davies.