4. What analysis has the Welsh Government made of data within the Wales Governance Centre report, 'Imprisonment in Wales: A Factfile'? OAQ52326

We have read the report by Dr Robert Jones. It presents a very useful picture of what is going on in Welsh prisons and matters concerning Welsh people held in English prisons.

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. I've got a quote from the second paragraph:

'Prisons in Wales are performing less well than prisons in England on a range of prison safety measures. The number of recorded self-harm incidents and prison assaults in Wales has increased at a higher rate than...in England.'

In fact HMP Parc had more incidents than any other prison in England and Wales. That surely shows, and the data within the report shows, the chaotic state and nature of the prison service in Wales at this point in time. In fact, it has a detrimental impact upon Welsh prisoners and their families and their lives when they leave prison as a consequence of that. It actually only goes to highlight the abject stupidity of the MOJ putting forward a proposal for a prison in Baglan, which is off the agenda now. But, your statement on 6 April stated that you wanted meaningful discussions on the future of penal policy in Wales with the MOJ, to ensure that we have a Welsh solution for Welsh prisoners. How far has that gone with the MOJ? Have you had discussions with the MOJ on the devolution of the penal system so that we can ensure that Welsh prisoners get the support and services they need closer to home, nearer their families, and are not being housed in some warehouse somewhere else?

I visited Parc prison last week and spoke to the director of the prison and other members of his staff who deal directly with people who are being held there, and discussed all of those issues with the director. I'm visiting Berwyn prison tomorrow morning and will be having similar conversations with the staff there. I share your concern. I share the concern about not only the report published last week, which I think followed on the heels of a number of critical reports about conditions in the secure estate in Wales. I think there is a need for a fundamentally different approach. I spoke in an earlier question to the need for a more holistic approach in these matters, and that is the case here as well.

I did have a meeting in my diary with Dr Phillip Lee, which I presume will now be rescheduled, and I would like to—[Interruption.] Dr Lee is one of that group of people who have contested Blaenau Gwent, so we do have something in common. I will pay tribute to him and the work he did whilst in office. I thought it was a refreshing change to speak to a Conservative Minister who actually understood many of the issues we're dealing with, and I very much regret that he felt the need to resign yesterday. 

But I will be pursuing these matters. I've asked for a meeting with the prisons Minister, Rory Stewart, and we're waiting to hear whether that will be able to go ahead. But, fundamental on this issue for me is that we address holistically the issue of penal policy in Wales. I do not believe that we can fundamentally address the issue of how we manage penal policy in Wales so long as that is managed by the MOJ, which follows the priorities and philosophies of a different Government and takes a fundamentally different approach. We do need to have a penal policy that is rooted in respect, humanity and rehabilitation, and one that serves the whole of our communities across the whole of Wales.

As another Blaenau Gwent electoral old boy, if that's the right way of putting it, I think we've all met with limited success. That's been turned around by you lately, but certainly Mr Lee and I found limited appeal. Can I commend the work of Robert Jones, who I know—and I've had the pleasure of hosting an event at which he was the principal speaker here in the Assembly—but also the work of the Wales Governance Centre? This is really quality material and we need to reflect on it.

I am pleased to see that the number of Welsh children in prisons has dropped from 116 in 2010 to 32 in 2017. I think it should be the ultimate last resort to put any children in prison. That trend going down is a good thing. But, it does mean more and more children have to travel to young offender institutions, which themselves are closing. So, we have a higher percentage of Welsh children now travelling large distances, and some of them are reporting they never get a parental visit because of the hardship that causes. Can you look at this and see if we can improve the situation of these families?

Absolutely. There is a significant correlation between the distance from home and the number of home visits received, and I think that's something that we do need to reflect upon. In fact, as to many of the young people and children who are held in the young offender institution in Parc, for example, the furthest from home are actually English-domiciled people who come from London or Birmingham or elsewhere. Whilst I have no issue with people's address or original nationality, my issue is distance from home, and we do need to have facilities—in the case of children and young people, a centre where they can continue in education, where they can be provided with support. Many of these people have some complex needs, whether it is in terms of mental illness and substance abuse, but also they come from, sometimes, some very difficult backgrounds, and they need help and support rather than harsh incarceration. What I would hope that we'd be able to do in a Welsh penal policy is to root that in a sense of rehabilitation, support, humanity and respect to enable us to move forward in a very different way.