1. What action will the Welsh Government take in response to the loss of 203 jobs at the Barclays call centre in Pontprennau, Cardiff? 187

I thank Julie Morgan for her question and say that it is very deeply disappointing that Barclays have made this decision. We will do all we can to assist workers affected by this decision as a matter of urgency. I'll be speaking with Barclays management on Friday, and I met with union representatives this morning.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response. I'm sure he's aware that 170 jobs are going to Northampton, and a small number of jobs are going to India. But I think it's important to make the point that these are not the first losses of jobs in Cardiff, and in Cardiff North in particular, of financial services jobs and call centre jobs, because we fairly recently lost 1,100 jobs at Tesco, from Tesco House. Last year, Barclays also closed its mortgage centre in Llanishen. That was a loss of 180 jobs. There have also been five bank branch closures by Barclays, NatWest and HSBC within my constituency of Cardiff North. So, that all adds up to 1,500 jobs lost in the last two years in the financial and call centre industry.

So, I don't know what the Welsh Government can do to try to persuade financial services companies and call centre bosses to stop this outpouring of jobs, because the jobs don't necessarily end—they're just going to other places, such as Northampton, and the Tesco jobs went to somewhere else. What can he do to keep up an ongoing dialogue with the financial services, with Barclays? I wonder is there any forum where they would discuss with the Cabinet Secretary what their future plans are, what are their plans for the city, because I think the loss of all these jobs in this particular service is very dismaying.

The Member is right that there has been a significant number of jobs lost as a consequence of churn that's taking place within the call centre sector at the moment. But, equally, there have been a huge number of jobs that are being created in Cardiff, and, as a direct consequence of Welsh Government support, there is a good story to tell about jobs that have been secured at TUI in Swansea, at Which?, who are opening their first ever call centre in Cardiff, and Aon, as well as MotoNovo—all companies that have been helped by Welsh Government in creating valuable jobs.

However, with regard to this specific issue, again, my deepest sympathies go to those who were affected by the decision. Now, Barclays have assured us that 250 roles will be retained, including 44 vacancies that Barclays are aiming to fill in Cardiff, but this is a commitment that I want to see set in concrete, and I'll have a number of questions for Barclays on Friday. My message to the business will be very clear—that they have five values, based on respect, integrity, service, excellence and stewardship, and they need to demonstrate that their values go right to the top of the company in how they now deal with those workers who will be affected by the announcement. What's quite clear is that the decision will lead to a difficult task for Barclays in employing new people in Northampton, because at the moment they are struggling. My understanding, based on this morning's discussions, is that they're struggling to recruit people who are readily available in Northampton, and instead what will happen is that Barclays may find that they have to pay a premium in order to entice people away from other businesses. That's not good for them, it's not good for the people who are going to lose their jobs here in Cardiff, and it's not good for the businesses in Northampton, who will find that they will lose valuable staff as well. This is not a sensible decision in my view, and this is the message that I'll be conveying to Barclays.

Now, the reason behind the churn that I mentioned is that there is a significant change in consumer behaviour, and, subsequent to that, we are seeing a huge degree of consolidation take place across the UK, involving outsourcing and indeed resourcing to the UK. Whilst there have been wins for Wales—clear wins for Cardiff in recent times—and I've identified some of those businesses that we've assisted in creating jobs, there have also been losses. What is crucially important is that the Welsh Government goes on supporting new businesses to create jobs here but also goes on helping existing businesses to grow their operations. We've had a very, very good success story in recent times in terms of our customer contact centre sector, and also the wider financial and professional services sector, and it was the Wales contact centre forum just yesterday that announced figures concerning the south Wales economy and the number of jobs that are currently available.

The figure at the moment, the number of vacancies that are available in the sector, amount to—I believe it's over 1,145. Now, in addition, as a consequence of the investment Welsh Government is making in businesses, we'll see a further 800 jobs created by the end of this year, demonstrating that the sector is vibrant and strong in Cardiff and in Wales as a whole. But our attention right now—just as we've been assisting those who were affected by the Tesco decision, the Member is aware of the enormous help that's being given to those who are affected by that, and the consequence of which has been to find a huge, huge majority of workers alternative employment. We will do the same for those affected at Barclays, but first and foremost I will be relaying my views to Barclays that this is a bad decision for the company and a bad decision for those who will be affected by it. 

Cabinet Secretary, obviously, we all share those concerns and hope that families who face the prospect of losing the breadwinner's job get security as soon as possible, because if you've got a mortgage or you've got dependents, you want that security as soon as possible. But what is really concerning here is that this is another financial service provider moving jobs out of Cardiff, when Cardiff, obviously, is supposed to be at the centre—an enterprise zone for financial services. The Member for Cardiff North highlighted at least 1,500 jobs that have moved out of the Cardiff North area in relation to financial services, and certainly in my discussions with providers of financial services here in Cardiff, there is a drift, certainly at senior level, of personnel being moved out of Cardiff to other regional centres—Birmingham and Bristol. And whilst I take at face value what you say about the call centre business being robust, and the vacancy rate that you highlighted was talked about yesterday, there is definite evidence out there that at a certain level within the banking and finance sectors, the senior positions are moving away from Wales. And to hear the analogy you make about Northamptonshire, which has gained from this job announcement—this company has made a decision knowing that it's going to go into a jobs market where it's going to pay a premium for jobs. So, what are we doing wrong here in Wales that isn't retaining these jobs here in Wales, and, importantly, retaining the high-value jobs, the decision makers, that can add so much to a company and the ability of that company to expand here in Wales?

Can I thank the Member for his question? Our intelligence suggests that the opposite is happening and will continue to happen: that as we see a reshoring of jobs into Wales—and there is evidence that that is already taking place—we will see senior-tier opportunities created. But, of course, the global shift, driven by automation and artificial intelligence, will see a significant number of lower-tier jobs lost. But those lower-tier jobs are those that were offshored in the 1990s and the noughties. What we will see in the future is Wales benefiting from a reshoring of jobs. Actually, in terms of jobs that have been created more recently, particularly in Cardiff and Swansea, those businesses that have moved here have also shifted senior appointments here. So, they include the likes of Aon, Which? and TUI—good opportunities right through the progression of a career, from entry level through to a senior managerial position.  

On the decision that was made by Barclays, my understanding is that the decision was reached not just within the UK, but as a consequence of deliberations overseas, far afield, where people may not be aware of the relative difficulties that there might be in securing suitably skilled employees in Northampton. Again, I wish to understand exactly where the decision was made, when it was made, and what sort of consultation took place, and particularly whether any consultation took place with the trade unions before the decision was reached. 

Obviously, the Barclays call centre is on the edge of my constituency, just a few hundred yards from the top of my constituency, so many of them live in my constituency. Having listened very carefully to the trade union representatives, many of whom are personally affected by this move, this morning, I'm concerned at the apparent thinness of the business case for doing this. They've made no case for reducing the number of jobs based on technological advances. It seems to be all down to an investing campus site, whatever that might mean, invented by people who are not familiar with the geography of the UK, and perhaps haven't had pointed out to them that Northampton is not close to Cardiff, and is certainly not going to be used as a way of people commuting slightly further. 

So, I'd be very keen if you, Cabinet Secretary, could ask the Barclays senior management, based in the United States, what is the substance of this location strategy, given that there's no reduction in the number of employees, that it's reported that there's great difficulty in getting appropriately qualified people in Northampton, and that the Cardiff site currently serves some of their highest value customers—high-end businesses who require the highest quality service otherwise they'll obviously take their business elsewhere. So, I'm very concerned, not just about the impact on the 200 individuals affected by this in Cardiff, but that there's a lack of any strategic substance to the business case for this level of disruption.

Well, I agree with the Member, and I think my comments so far suggest that her views and mine are fully aligned in questioning the business case and the rationale for the decision that's been announced. We should remember as well that it's not just workers in Cardiff who will be affected by this decision, but also in Coventry. Again, we need to question why it is that Barclays have decided to pursue the course of action of consolidating activities in a smaller number of centres in the UK, whilst, at the same time, essentially splitting two halves of the same service in Cardiff, which runs completely against what they're suggesting, which is that they would wish to see services consolidated in one area. And this is why I wish to see that assurance that the 250 roles are going to be remaining in Cardiff. I want that promise set in concrete, as I said. I wish to have clarity as well over what appears at the moment to be that contradiction that has emerged from Barclays, saying that they wish to consolidate into a fewer number of centres in the UK, whilst also splitting services across two distinct geographical areas. To me, it does not make sense. I wish to have clarity over that, and I think the workforce deserve clarity as well.

First of all, I would like to offer my sympathies to all the workers who are going to be hit by this, and I regret once again that we see a very skilled workforce being let down. My concern is the pattern of seeing jobs being cut in Wales, and that the Welsh Government, to all intents and purposes, doesn’t have information about these cuts until the decision has been made. I’m sure that that is a concern for the Cabinet Secretary as well. I don’t think that I’m recommending that the Welsh Government should be included within board discussions of these companies, but, somehow, the communication is failing, and we need to question, I think, as part of our work of holding the Government to account, how effective the relationship is between the Government and these major employers such as Barclays, particularly given that Pentwyn is located on the outskirts of the Cardiff enterprise zone, which specialises in the financial services sector.

So, in terms of my questions, when was the last time you met with Barclays before finding out about this news, and was the possibility of job cuts in Cardiff discussed at that time? My second question: given that one of the heads of Barclays is a member of the sector panel for the financial services sector of the Government, you have to ask whether these panels are doing their work properly, because, even though you are using these panels to collaborate in order to attract new companies in the sector to Wales—that is one of the aims of their existence—isn’t it key to use the panels in order to find out how we safeguard jobs within the sector that already exist, and being a radar to acknowledge problems? Now, you said that you’re proud that new jobs are being found for those who have lost their jobs in call centres—and can I make it clear that I welcome the fact that jobs have been found? But let me ask: given the instability of the sector, which has come to prominence here, how sustainable is it for the Government to continue to place its faith in the call centre sector?

Because we've got great confidence in the ability and the quality and the expertise of the workforce in Wales who are employed in the contact centre sector. I should just inform the Member that the sector panels have been wound up—that includes the financial and professional services sector—with a new ministerial advisory board that has consolidated all of the sector panels into one board that provides advice and expertise.

Our intelligence regarding the contact centre sector comes from the Welsh Contact Centre Forum. They were not informed in advance, nor was the UK Government, nor was the local authority. And I do question whether the Member is suggesting that we should have had commercially sensitive information ahead of the announcement, and to have done nothing with it, because if we'd been aware that there was any suggestion of job losses in Cardiff, we would have acted on it immediately. It's for the business to determine whether or not to approach us with any concerns over future operations. That business did not approach us. I want to know whether it approached the trade unions, because my impression, based on discussions that I've had this morning, is that the answer is 'no'. Nobody was informed in advance of the announcement that jobs would be lost.

I would also reiterate the point that I made: that the sector as a whole is in an incredibly strong position in Wales as a direct result of the investments that Welsh Government has made and the support that the Welsh Government has been able to offer businesses, with 1,145 jobs in south Wales alone currently available in the sector and, by the end of this year, a further 800 jobs. What we wish to do now is, first of all, of course, try to prevent the jobs being lost from Barclays, but if we cannot do that, we wish to ensure that every single person affected by the decision gets an equal or better opportunity, either within Barclays in Cardiff or in an alternative and suitable place of employment. They deserve the very best and that's what Welsh Government is going to help give them. 

Like everyone else, I find Barclays's decision quite baffling, and I do have some sympathy with you; quite how you can anticipate such a random decision is very difficult to consider. I think what you say about the resilience of the sector is key, because jobs continue to be generated, and perhaps against expectation with automation the service is becoming more skilled—highly skilled in many places with complex calls and use of social media platforms. I commend the work of the trade unions in emphasising how important these skilled and better-paid jobs are.

So, my specific question, then, given that you've referred to the vacancies and the fact that—. Incidentally, we want lots of smaller providers to establish greater resilience so that when we do get a rather random decision, it's one amongst many employers, thankfully. Anyway, there are lots of skilled people now, unfortunately, who are going to have their work disrupted for at least a while until they find other employment. So, are you working with the Welsh Contact Centre Forum to ensure that as many people as possible are aware of the opportunities that currently exist in the sector? Because I would imagine many of them really do have the potential to shift quite quickly into those jobs and it's very, very important that we provide that sort of practical assistance.  

Can I thank David Melding for his questions and also welcome his astute observations and wise opinion regarding this sector? In the coming years, industry commentators predict that technological disruption will lead to, yes, a reduction in lower-skilled jobs, but actually an increase in higher-quality jobs that are demanding higher levels of skills and commanding higher wages right across the UK. As I said earlier, this could see, and should see, a reshoring of jobs that were lost abroad. What we will also see is a greater focus within the sector on retraining and reskilling people in order to take advantage of those higher-salaried jobs that require new and additional skills, particularly in the fields of data science, cyber security, artificial intelligence and behavioural science as well—incredibly exciting areas of activity. For that reason, we developed the economic action plan with a specific call to action to drive investment in innovation, to ensure that businesses are future-proofed and embrace the industries of tomorrow. As a consequence of publishing that economic action plan we are now well positioned to be able to take full advantage of the development of new, higher-quality jobs within the sector. 

Meanwhile, David Melding is absolutely right that we need to work very closely with the Welsh Contact Centre Forum, who have proven to be invaluable in identifying other jobs for people who lost their employment at Tesco and who face the prospect of losing their jobs at Virgin. We work incredibly closely with the contact centre forum. I'll be calling on Barclays, when I speak with them on Friday, to allow not just representatives of the forum into the business in Cardiff, but also Welsh Government officials and representatives of those bodies who are able to provide employment advice. Also, given that many people will be facing the prospect of losing their current jobs, there will be anxious people, so I wish to see Barclays open the doors to practitioners in particularly mental health, who will be able to provide support during what will be a very insecure period.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.