The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Paul Davies, amendment 2 in the name of Julie James, and amendment 3 in the name of Caroline Jones. 

Item 8 is the Plaid Cymru debate on hydrogen energy and I call on Simon Thomas to move the motion.

Motion NDM6750 Rhun ap Iorwerth

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes the report, 'The Potential of Hydrogen in the Decarbonisation of Transport in Wales', which was published by Simon Thomas AM.

2. Notes the Welsh Government's stated intention to build on existing skills and expertise to lead in the UK in hydrogen research and development and investment.

3. Calls on the Welsh Government to hold discussions with businesses, researchers and bodies about holding a key event to convey Wales's ambition in relation to the hydrogen economy to a worldwide audience and to trigger the development of a comprehensive hydrogen economy strategy.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, temporary Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m pleased to move the motion, which is based on work commissioned by me using the Assembly’s research funds. It’s being published as a report, ‘The Potential of Hydrogen in the Decarbonisation of Transport in Wales’. If any Member wants a copy, then they are welcome to contact me. I would also like to thank Riversimple, the hydrogen car company in Llandrindod Wells, which staged the launch of this report and gave me an opportunity to be driven around in a hydrogen vehicle—I was joined by many others—and to experience this technology. It’s excellent to see not only that research is happening in Wales but that there is an effort to deliver on that research as a real project, and that that is happening in mid Wales rather than in the usual locations.

The report looks into the possibility of using hydrogen as a fuel in the transport system in Wales, but more broadly taking advantage of the opportunity to develop a hydrogen-based economy too. We look at a number of examples across the world, particularly in western Europe, where hydrogen is currently in use, and how European funds and research funds are used to promote this technology—technology that was born in Wales in the hands of Sir William Grove, but which has the potential for a great future.

Hydrogen is important to us because we need every tool possible in our fight against the dual challenges of climate change and air pollution. I am not arguing that hydrogen outdoes every other method. What I am arguing is that hydrogen has a role and the potential in delivering alongside things such as electric vehicles and more specific things such as reducing the number of journeys taken in the first place.

The main merit of hydrogen is that it does not produce any nitrogen dioxide or toxic matter when it is used, and water is the only emission of a hydrogen machine or cell, and that means that we clean up our towns with clean air and take advantage of opportunities—

Order. I'm sorry, Simon, but we've lost the translation. The testing is working. Has everyone now got the transmission? Thank you. I do apologise, Simon. Do continue. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I was just mentioning water, so I hope you didn’t miss too much there.

The technology is available and I am particularly interested in seeing what role hydrogen has as a fuel in the mass transportation system. So, we’re looking at buses and trains, and opportunities with the Wales and borders franchise coming into the hands of the Welsh Government for us to do something more innovative here in Wales.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

What we hope to see here is that the Government, and Wales itself becomes a nation that is in the vanguard and leads in developing the hydrogen industry. It is something that is swiftly expanding across the world. It is something that is very much developing in nations that are interested in research and new methods. There is a hydrogen community at a global level where information is shared, and I do think that there is an opportunity for us as a nation that is flexible and is of the right size, as it were, with an innovative Government, to lead on many of these areas. I very much hope—I would be delighted, in fact—if the Welsh Government were able to bring together some sort of summit of all of these organisations to demonstrate that we do want to lead the way.

We believe that an investment in the hydrogen economy is something that could go along with active travel, clean air zones, with electric vehicles. Hydrogen doesn’t outdo these, of course, as I said; it is one of the measures to tackle air pollution and climate change.

There are numerous nations now that are experimenting with these methods. There are hydrogen buses in places like Aberdeen and Birmingham. London is investing in hydrogen buses, and I think we only have three electric buses throughout the whole of Wales, and they aren’t on the roads as of yet, so we are falling behind. Germany may have been knocked out of the World Cup today but they are investing in hydrogen trains, with Austria, Ontario and China also looking into this. Costa Rica is a nation looking to invest in hydrogen trains. There’s an excellent opportunity for us to develop there.

I noted from the schedule to the supplementary budget that £5 million has been allocated by the Cabinet Secretary for developments that will come as a result of not proceeding with proposals in Blaenau Gwent on the Circuit of Wales, and that they are now looking into possibilities of investing in low-carbon technologies in Blaenau Gwent. It would be wonderful to see if that could also be used for developing the hydrogen economy. We can lead the way here. I saw just last week that the Scottish Government had supported a hydrogen ship to be built in Scotland. Those are the opportunities available to us, and I very much hope, despite the slightly unambitious amendments of the Government, that we can take full advantage of this technology and lead the world. 

Thank you. I have selected three amendments to the motion, and I call on Russell George to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. 

Amendment 1—Paul Davies

In point 1, after ‘Simon Thomas AM’, insert:

‘, and further notes:

a) the potential of hydrogen as an alternative form of fuel;

b) the importance of hydrogen fuel to the diversification of our energy portfolio;

c) the important distinction between green and brown hydrogen fuel;

d) that green hydrogen fuel is only viable as a by-product of surplus electricity generation, and therefore its limitations should be recognised; and

e) that improvements to Wales’s grid infrastructure are required by the Welsh Government in order to ensure that both electricity and hydrogen can be utilised as green alternatives to fossil fuels.’

Amendment 1 moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to move the amendment in the name of Paul Davies, and in doing so very much welcome this debate and indicate our support for the objectives contained within the Plaid motion. I hope that our amendments will be supported because, as we believe, of course, they strengthen the motion further.

We must not forget that the Welsh Development Agency stated in 2005, 13 years ago, that it wished to develop a micro-economy in south Wales based on hydro technology. The then Minister for development and transport, Andrew Davies, envisaged that there would be hydrogen fuelling stations, zero-emission integrated transport networks, hydrogen-powered water taxis and hubs where heavy goods vehicles can transfer goods onto electric vehicles for delivery. All this, at the time, was envisaged within 10 years, and as Jenny Rathbone, actually, rightly said in the Chamber last October, none of this has materialised, and while it's regrettable, I think, perhaps, this indicates that the Welsh Government's commitment to decarbonisation of the Welsh transport system is somewhat overstated, and that's why I raise this, because that's why I'd suggest we won't be supporting the Government's amendments.

I read Simon Thomas's paper with great interest—I learnt a lot. I just thought it was a very good way to use the Assembly's research funds. It is a really good document, and it certainly is—. It's right that we debate this kind of item in opposition time, as we are today.

Now, both electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel cells are cleaner than carbon fuels and have the potential to deliver a host of benefits including reduced carbon emissions and low-running costs and safety improvements, but to ensure, of course, Wales is leading the way in this regard, to adapt to this new technology and to diversify our energy portfolio, of course improvements to Wales's grid infrastructure will be required, otherwise the plans that are outlined in Simon Thomas's report will never come to reality.

It's my understanding that the viability of green hydrogen fuel generation comes from surplus electricity generation, and as the grid develops, the electricity storage is incorporated into the grid's model, and there would be less, of course, surplus electricity, as it would now be stored by distribution system operators for later distribution. That's what I've understood, but I'm quite happy to be corrected by Simon Thomas if I've not got that right.

Could the Member give way?

Absolutely, yes. 

I don't wish to correct him in that sense—I think he's broadly correct—but what I think he misses, and that's why I'm not completely content with his amendment, which I understand is trying to be a constructive amendment—. I think he misses the opportunity in Wales in particular, where we do produce surplus renewable electricity—we would have certainly had it with the tidal lagoon, but also many of our windfarms are producing electricity at a time when it's not actually being used, and there is a potential for hydrogen to stand in the gap. It's actually more effective as a storage method for energy than storing energy as electricity because our battery technology is not as efficient as our hydrogen technology.

Thank you, Simon Thomas. This is something new I'm exploring myself, so I'm happy for that point.

I can see I've just about run out of time, but I think one issue that I do think needs to be resolved is that tension as well between what role hydrogen plays versus the need for electric vehicles, or electric generation as well, because there are limitations that exist there. So, I think it is right that we should also be progressing, of course, electric vehicle charging points as well. But what I'm trying to grasp with is that balance between the two and where they sit, and that's what I hope to get out of this debate this afternoon, and I'm looking forward to the Cabinet Secretary's response and other Members' contributions and your conclusions as well. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I ask the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport to move formally amendment 2, tabled in the name of Julie James?

Amendment 2—Julie James

Delete points 2 and 3 and replace with:

Notes the Welsh Government’s commitment through the new Economic Action Plan to decarbonise traditional models of business, public services and infrastructure in Wales and shift towards a low-carbon future in a way that can support our economy to diversify and grow.

Notes the Welsh Government’s work to decarbonise the Welsh transport network, including the recent commitment to a 25 per cent reduction in emissions across the Wales and Borders rail network by 2023.

Notes that work to decarbonise the Welsh transport system must be broad based, with the need for creative research and development in alternative infrastructure solutions and across a range of innovative fuels and traction systems, including hydrogen.

Amendment 2 moved.

Formally. 

Thank you. Can I call on Michelle Brown now to move amendment 3, tabled in the name of Caroline Jones? Michelle. 

Amendment 3—Caroline Jones

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government and the UK Government to ensure that any forms of alternative energy that they explore meet the tests of affordability, which include not placing an excessive burden on taxpayers.

Amendment 3 moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Hydrogen energy is an exciting and very interesting technology that can be used to create energy to power cars, HGVs, shipping, and also to heat homes. So, I'm very, very pleased to be able to support Plaid's motion today.

Provided this hydrogen itself is sourced from renewable energies, it provides a solution to the pollution that damages health and causes multiple deaths each year in this country. However, as I've pointed out before, unless the pollution created by shipping is addressed, we will never solve the world's pollution problem. But there is hope because of hydrogen. The Race for Water concept ship uses solar power and a hydrogen stack to extend its range when it's away from the equator. Hydrogen engines are also being developed for the use in HGVs as well. Riversimple's approach to designing the cars around the power cell is not only incredibly logical, it's resulted in a car that's a viable prospect with few of the drawbacks of those electric and hybrid cars that are somewhat counterproductive, being a combination of fossil fuel and heavy batteries.

The innovation and technological ability of that home-grown company are to be commended, and they're part of a proud tradition of British engineers who split the atom and gave the world the computer. So, let's not make the same mistake that previous generations have, who saw inventions brought into being by British people only to see companies in other countries make a fortune out of them.

A key point was raised yesterday in First Minister's questions, when it was said that we should we be careful about putting all of our eggs in the electrical vehicle basket. I fully agree that we should have a mixed source of energy production. We don't want to find ourselves beholden to a cartel in the way that we currently are with petrol and diesel, and a suitable energy mix will prevent that.

Electrical vehicles powered by battery are not without damage to the environment, as I've commented on here in the past. The electricity has to be generated, and in the main we're still doing that by use of fossil fuels. The materials for the massive batteries required also need to be mined and processed—a process that's potentially damaging to the environment and human health. Disposal of those batteries is also highly problematic. It's positive from the point of view that electric vehicles don't produce toxic emissions, but under our current power mix, these emissions have simply been shifted elsewhere—they're still going into the atmosphere. Hydrogen-fuelled vehicles don't pose that Hobson's choice.

Turning to our amendment, we recognise that widespread introduction of hydrogen-powered vehicles will require an infrastructure that costs money to install. That applied, of course, to the introduction of the horse-drawn carriage in the first place. While once we had staging posts for horse-drawn transport, complete with fodder and stabling, an entire infrastructure had to be created to store, transport and refine, or to produce petrol, diesel and heating oil.

Petrol stations are already equipped to deal with combustible fuel, and whilst it's true they would require adaptation to accommodate hydrogen, the task isn't as great as that posed before, at the start of the fossil-fuel vehicle era. I'm sure any key events such as that mentioned in the motion would produce a range of ideas, and I'm fully supportive of the motion from that point of view. But I would ask that we keep the options being considered realistically affordable.

We need to ensure that there's a good return on investment, and that the risks of creating the necessary infrastructure, and research and development, and then promotion of the technology is shared fairly between the companies that will profit from it, the Government, and ultimately, the taxpayer.

We'll also need buy-in from the public, but that's not going to happen if they fear they're going to be hit with another costly green tax. So, reassurance from Government on that score, I think, would be greatly appreciated. And to that end, I urge you to back UKIP's amendment. Thank you.

I was feeling very mischievous a moment ago thinking what kind of emergency vote we could call because Plaid Cymru are in the majority here at the moment in the Chamber. [Laughter.]

I’m pleased to be able to take part very briefly in this debate, and I congratulate Simon on the work that he’s done in preparing this report that looks at the potential of hydrogen for Wales, and that word ‘potential’ is the important one for me here, because like so many new technologies, and ways of using those technologies, we’re starting in terms of seeing how far we can push those boundaries.

We need every tool in several battles that we currently have—the battle against climate change, and evidently hydrogen does offer something in that area. We need every tool in the battle to ensure that the air is cleaner around us, and hydrogen, once again, does offer something there. I think that we also need every tool when it comes to looking at the economic potential for Wales. In so many different areas, Wales is falling behind, in environmental areas too. Look at Ireland—with the Enterprise and Business Committee in the last Assembly, I was very jealous of the work that had been done on the 'Harnessing Our Ocean Wealth' report, looking at how to get the best out of marine energy and the economic benefit and environmental benefit that would come from that.

In the work that I’m trying to do on electric cars at present, I regret the fact that we are falling behind, where the rest of Britain is developing and investing a lot more in charging points and so forth for electric vehicles, where we were, a few years ago in Wales, talking of the possibility, as a small, flexible country, of being leaders in creating charging networks. At present, we only want to be part of the game. Where Wales has one charging point funded from the public purse for every 100,000 people, Scotland has one charging point for every 7,000 people. That’s the magnitude of the challenge before us, and I’m looking forward to going to Dundee before long, which is a city that’s doing amazing work in this area.

Yes, there are some people who evangelise about electric vehicles who turn up their noses at the possibility of developing hydrogen technology for cars. My argument then is that we need to look at every way of trying to ensure that we turn our modes of transport into very low-emission approaches, or those with no emissions at all. Certainly, in terms of commercial vehicles, buses and lorries, I think hydrogen energy now—not just in the future—offers potential. So, the appeal today is: please support this motion and let us realise that there is work being developed here in Wales that has the potential to create the kind of world and Wales that we are looking for.

Thank you very much. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport, Ken Skates.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I very much welcome the opportunity to debate this important subject today, and I'd like to thank Simon Thomas for bringing forward this report. I'd also like to reiterate what Russell George said; I think this is an exemplar use of research budgets. This is a superb research report and I welcome it very much. I think it's fair to say that the future, in many ways, does belong to those who are open, rather than closed; those who are open to new ideas; those who are open to challenge; those who are open to new technology; and, crucially, those who are open to change.

I think, as Simon said, we need to look at hydrogen's role in decarbonising transport within the wider and integrated context of the role that it has to play in decarbonising our entire economy and our communities under the Environment (Wales) Act 2016. Taking forward the commitments under the environment Act, we'll be launching a consultation next month on our decarbonisation pathways to 2030 and beyond, and we'll be seeking views on those actions that should be priorities for Wales.

As only 5 per cent of hydrogen is currently green, we need to ensure that, in moving to hydrogen, we do not inadvertently restrict our ability to decarbonise, and I think this is something that everybody recognises. So, in order to do this, the Welsh Government is considering how we could produce hydrogen using excess renewable generation alongside carbon capture utilisation and storage to decarbonise transport, alongside heat, industry and power.

We are outcome specific in our commitment to moving to a decarbonised transport sector in Wales. However, we remain technology neutral on the role of different fuels and technologies in achieving this aim, including the role of hydrogen. The current trend is towards hybrid and electric vehicles, but there is a growing interest in hydrogen and hydrogen fuel cell propulsion, which we are already supporting.

The £2 million support for Riversimple is indicative of our support for the shift to a low-carbon economy and transport sector. We funded this aspirational and inspirational project at a time when many considered it highly unlikely to become a viable enterprise, and we're now helping Monmouthshire County Council to explore opportunities to build on the hydrogen Riversimple trial taking place in their area in terms of sustainable fuels and smarter mobility. It's an extremely exciting piece of work, particularly given that it's in a rural environment. Our Sêr Cymru programme is funding research at Swansea University into hydrogen fuel for vehicles and at Cardiff University, who are researching technology for green hydrogen generation.

Our £5 billion investment in the new rail service for Wales includes a major commitment to decarbonisation. We explored fully the option of hydrogen technology with bidders for the Wales and borders rail service during the procurement exercise, and we will continue to look for innovation on the network in the future. Our aim, as outlined in—[Interruption.] Yes, of course, yes.

Just on that point, I see the welcome announcement this week of a test facility for rail, also in south Wales, quite close, as it happens, to Baglan and to sources of hydrogen. Would that be a potential area where this could be explored?

It could be. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. It adds to the attractiveness of the facility. As I said in the statement regarding what was called within the civil service and my office 'Project Hornby', but will be a global centre of research excellence, this was demand-led by the industry and, as you're aware, there are huge, huge sums of money being set aside for the development of more advanced hydrogen-driven trains, and I'm confident that, as a test facility, we could be seeing those products, those trains, that rolling stock, tested in Wales.

Our aim is, as outlined by the economic action plan, a carbon-zero bus and taxi service and sectors within 10 years, and we're currently scoping potential pathways for that to happen. Hydrogen could have a role to play—there is no doubt about it—especially in the bus sector, but hydrogen buses currently attract a considerably higher cost premium compared to other options. That, of course, will reduce over time as hydrogen buses are mainstreamed into the network.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we will continue to support the transport sector in developing and implementing new technologies, reflecting their role in our decarbonisation pathways, and the opportunities they represent for a successful future economy in supporting our wider well-being goals. I think our investment in Tech Valleys will encourage this, as will our investment in businesses such as Riversimple, and in facilities such as the rail test facility that's going to be constructed on the Neath Port Talbot and Powys border.

In terms of grid capacity, the point that was raised by Russell George, I would agree that there is a very, very urgent need for further investment to strengthen capacity on the grid, but I am pleased that National Grid are opening a centre of excellence and research in Wales.

So, thanks again for the opportunity to debate this important matter today, and to Simon Thomas in particular for saving me from the need to watch Match of the Day later, having disclosed the outcome of the German match in the world cup.

Thank you. Can I call on Simon Thomas to reply to the debate?

Thank you. Can I thank everyone who took part in this debate? It was a short debate to note the publication of the report, but I can promise you I'll bore you about hydrogen for some time to come, and I've got a few enthusiasts around as well, so that's good to see.

This is a technology that I think does a lot to tick a lot of boxes that we're interested in in Wales. It's innovative. It happened to be designed here, which adds to the romance; it doesn't matter really, but it does add to it. It's something that decarbonises our transport sector and has potential in other areas as well. I just want to say at the outset that I very much—although I won't necessarily support all the amendments—do understand the spirit in which those amendments have been made: they're constructive, and we're having a debate that's trying to put together some ideas around the potential for hydrogen.

The key thing is that we need green hydrogen on the whole. There is some brown hydrogen as a by-product that can continue to be part of the mix, I think, but producing hydrogen directly from fossil fuel makes no sense whatsoever. But using what was described, actually, by Alan Whitehead, who speaks for the Labour Party in the UK, as he described it in the New Statesman, 

'the emergence of a large load of variable power', that is renewables of course,

'onto the system it may be that this "surplus" electricity is becoming available' for the production of hydrogen. As I quoted back to Russell in his reasonable questions, it now seems that storing surplus electricity as hydrogen is as cost-effective as—in fact, some of the experts and the users of this say it's more cost-effective than—storing it as electricity. And we also then avoid some of the costs of batteries that Michelle Brown mentioned, and I mean environmental costs as well as the actual cost. So, there is huge potential there.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this debate, and we did focus on transport, but there is a role for hydrogen in heat. Those of us who remember town gas—not me, but if you do remember town gas—town gas was about 40 per cent hydrogen. There's still a town gas office in Aberystwyth, actually. It's got Aberystwyth Gas Company above it. We used to produce town gas from coal. We used to compress coal and burn it to produce hydrogen. That was our gas system. Our current gas system—gas mains—doesn't like more than a tiny percentage of hydrogen in it, but we need to work with the gas providers to see whether we can pump a little more hydrogen into the gas system because it then has—. We produce it for transport, we can produce it for heat, we can produce it then to decarbonise wider in the economy.

Can I finally say that the comments of the Cabinet Secretary were much more upbeat than, I think, the amendment from the Government? So, I'm going to rely on his comments, not the amendment, and I'm going to hope that that means that we can have a real debate, going forward in the Assembly, and can indeed work to put Wales at—. Albeit technology-neutral, there are huge opportunities here. People are investing already, and I want to see Wales being part of that, and leading on that. I'll take his comments, rather than the amendment, as a sign of hope ahead.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. Therefore, we vote on this item at voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.