Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:38 pm on 3 July 2018.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:38, 3 July 2018

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders, and, on behalf of the opposition, Paul Davies.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, this week is of course the seventieth anniversary of the national health service, and I'm sure you will join me in celebrating the service and the tireless work of health professionals, who, over the years, have continued to deliver the best possible outcomes for patients across the UK. First Minister, in light of this significant milestone, are you ashamed to be the only leader of a UK nation to have ever cut an NHS budget?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

Can I first of all pay just a word of tribute again to the Member's predecessor, with whom I crossed swords for seven years, I think, in this Chamber? It went very quickly, I suspect, but could I wish him the best for the future as well, and to welcome the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire back to the role that he occupied back in 2011 for a short period of time?

Can I assure him we are proud of the record we have on the NHS? We are the party that established the NHS. We spend more on health per head than England does. We spend more on health and social care by some distance than England does. And if he is suggesting to me that somehow things are better under his Government in London, I simply repeat to him a sign I saw, which touched me, in Tredegar on Sunday, and it's this: 'We have a statue to Aneurin Bevan; we'll never have a statue to Jeremy Hunt.'

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:39, 3 July 2018

Well, of course, here he goes again—the First Minister, wanting to talk about England. He doesn't want to talk about Wales. You are the First Minister of Wales. Now, of course, perhaps the outgoing First Minister doesn't actually want to talk about financing the NHS in Wales, but at least the incoming First Minister is starting to accept his party's mistakes of the past. Only last week, at the WLGA conference in Llandudno, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services made it clear that it was a mistake to cut the health budget in 2011, when he said that—and I quote:

'The cash flat budget settlement didn't work'.

First Minister, do you agree with him?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:40, 3 July 2018

What I can say is we have put enormous resources into the health service now for many, many years. It is perfectly proper for us to point out what he—his party—would do if they were in Government in Wales, because we have seen the example of what they have done in England: mass prioritisation, a postcode lottery—[Interruption.] Yes, I know it hurts, but you've got to listen. A postcode lottery of treatment, prioritisation, cuts in health spending in real terms, not keeping up with the health spending in Wales, massive cuts in social services. If they talked to their colleagues—their own party colleagues—in local government in England, we will see from them, and hear from them, the devastating impact of his party's cuts in England that thankfully—thankfully—we have been able to prevent in Wales. I just remember one thing: we have, for the past eight years and more in this Chamber, had to suffer the effects of austerity that has been imposed on the people of Wales by his own party. I would accept his criticism perhaps more favourably if he were to stand up today and demand that his own Prime Minister and what's left of her Government end austerity in the UK.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:41, 3 July 2018

Well, I'm not going to take any lectures on spending from the First Minister and, indeed, the Labour Party. It was the Labour Party that left a deficit of £150 billion back in 2010—[Interruption.]—and we all remember—[Interruption.] We all remember the former Labour Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Liam Byrne, who said there was no money left. This party has had to clear up that mess. [Interruption.] First Minister—

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

I think we all need to calm down a little bit and listen to Paul Davies.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, the effects of the cuts back in 2011 are still being felt by communities across Wales today. The starving of vital NHS funds in recent years has led to Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board in north Wales being put in special measures, the centralisation and downgrading of services and hospitals like Withybush in west Wales, in my constituency, health boards struggling and, in some cases, unable to break even. Waiting times satisfaction rates are down, according to your own Government's survey, and thousands of people across Wales are still struggling to access their GP. First Minister, the UK Government has pledged a funding boost of £1.2 billion to the Welsh Government every year—[Interruption.]—for the next few years, every year for the next few years. Will you now commit to spending every penny of that funding on the NHS in Wales and give the Welsh health service the birthday present it so vitally deserves?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:42, 3 July 2018

Well, he is more animated than I've seen him for the past 11 years in this Chamber. He doesn't need to audition for the job; no-one else wants it, at the end of the day. [Laughter.] But let me say this to him: again, he wants to avoid the austerity that his own party has imposed on the people of Britain. It is because of austerity that we find ourselves in the position where we would want to spend more money, more resources in health and other areas but we are unable to do so. Once again, on being given the invitation today to stand up and call for the end of austerity, he has failed. I can't say 'once again' because it's the first time he's done it, but he has failed the people of Wales in terms of what he has done.

Once again, he spreads this myth—he spreads this myth about a £1.2 billion consequential. That is not true. Let me explain why it's not true. What will happen is, the consequential will come, and then there will be cuts in other areas. There won't be £1.2 billion. It will be far less than that. We know that because that's what's happened over the past few years. So, what we will find is there may well be a consequential, but it will be far less than £1.2 billion, because his party are going to make sure of that. His party are going to make sure that they will make cuts in local government, they will make cuts in other devolved areas, and they'll pass those cuts on to us and shave that figure of £1.2 billion down to something far, far less. So, let's see, if he wants the leadership of his party, whether he will say today that he will demand of his party in London that we should get a full £1.2 billion and more, just as they gave £1 billion to the eight Members of Parliament from the Democratic Unionist Party.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:44, 3 July 2018

(Translated)

The Plaid Cymru leader, Leanne Wood.

Photo of Leanne Wood Leanne Wood Plaid Cymru

Diolch, Llywydd. In the seventieth year of the NHS, it remains Wales's greatest invention, and it is, of course, the staff to whom we owe the greatest gratitude. So, I'm sure I speak on behalf of everyone here when I say 'diolch o galon i chi i gyd' on behalf of all of us.

Now, Wales's ageing population means that care services are unable to deal with the pressure that they're under, leading to thousands of unnecessary referrals to the NHS. It's in your gift, First Minister, to create the national care service that Plaid Cymru has been advocating for some time now, to alleviate that pressure. Will you do it?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:45, 3 July 2018

Well, it's not clear what a national care service would do. It is right to say that there is still work to be done in aligning further the work of social services with health. We know there can't be a divorce between the two. The two run very much together. And that is what we are doing, working with our local government colleagues, to make sure that there are fewer people who are delayed in hospital—we're seeing delayed transfers of care go down—and also, of course, working with primary care providers to make sure that they are able to provide the care that people need to avoid them going into hospital in the first place. 

Photo of Leanne Wood Leanne Wood Plaid Cymru

It's not happening quick enough, First Minister, and that's why we've advocated this national care service. Bold changes are needed for our health and social care services to reflect the changing demographics in this country. Bevan's bold vision saw the creation of the NHS, and a similar bold vision is needed now for a national care service. We can all agree that the NHS is a Welsh institution that is the envy of the world, but Wales's place in the world is putting it under threat. Unlike the promises on the side of the famous big red bus, Brexit's danger for the NHS has come into sharp focus this week. NHS England's chief executive officer, Simon Stevens, confirmed that there is extensive planning taking place for a 'no deal' Brexit. First Minister, can you tell us exactly what planning has been taking place here in Wales in the Welsh NHS for a 'no deal' Brexit scenario?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:46, 3 July 2018

No amount of planning will help us to recruit doctors in the event of a 'no deal' Brexit. It's a disaster. In fact, people were told two years ago that it wouldn't happen. Now, they are being softened up for a 'no deal' Brexit that will lead to many things, and she is right to point this out. What it would mean is that it would be far more difficult to attract doctors and nurses into our health system. Every single health service in the western world relies on medical staff from other countries, because they want to be able to attract the best, wherever they are from. The message that's being sent out from Britain at the moment is: doctors and nurses from other countries are not welcome here; that, somehow, this is not the country to come to; it is too much bother to come to; there is too much bureaucracy in the future. That is not what we want. A 'no deal' Brexit cannot be planned for, because if we can't attract doctors and nurses from other countries, we will not make up the numbers that we need in Wales. That's why we continue to fight, as she does, for a Brexit that is sensible and makes sure that the people of Wales don't suffer.

Photo of Leanne Wood Leanne Wood Plaid Cymru 1:47, 3 July 2018

I'm really concerned that you have no plan for a 'no deal' Brexit, First Minister. They are planning for this in England. You should be planning for this here in Wales. Now, I know that we both want to see our NHS weather the Brexit storm. You are in a position to do something about it, though. I don't have faith in Westminster to ensure a steady hand on the tiller. 'No deal' needs planning, and that planning needs to start now, for the sake of patients and for staff. 

One of the most startling revelations relates to our access to medicines, post Brexit. Thirty-seven million patient packets of medicines are imported into the UK from the EU every single month. Now, in a 'no deal' scenario, there is no guarantee about a single one of those packs. Medicines regulation is not a devolved matter, and NHS England has confirmed that they are preparing to stockpile medicines made outside the UK for English patients. That's what planning does.

First Minister, are there specific Welsh contingency plans, or are you going to leave it up to the Department of health in Whitehall to ensure that Welsh patients can access the treatments that they need post Brexit?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:48, 3 July 2018

Yes, we will do what we have to do in order to cater for that scenario, but let's not pretend here that any of this is good. She makes the point that there is planning for a 'no deal' Brexit. There is no planning for a 'no deal' Brexit. It's more like people running around in circles screaming. There are no plans at all for it. Let's look, for example, at the ports. Where are the plans to put in place the structure in the ports to deal with extra customs checks, possibly extra border controls, the queues of lorries that would be created as a result, and the parking that would be created as a result of that? Nothing. There is no planning for it. The reason why no planning has been done on a 'no deal' Brexit in Whitehall is because they convinced themselves that the EU would crumble and therefore there would be a deal. It would be an abject failure on the part of Brexiteers if, having promised the people of Britain in 2016 that there would be a deal that the EU would agree to, they then broke that promise two years on. They would have some explaining to do to the people of Britain.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:49, 3 July 2018

(Translated)

The leader of the UKIP group, Caroline Jones. 

Photo of Caroline Jones Caroline Jones UKIP 1:50, 3 July 2018

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, the whole of my region and communities breathed a sigh of relief when news broke of the deal being struck between Tata and ThyssenKrupp. It ended years of uncertainty for workers at Port Talbot and Deeside. So, the Port Talbot works is to get one of its blast furnaces repaired, helping to guarantee the jobs of the thousands of employees until 2026. However, I note from the announcement that the firm only have an ambition to avoid compulsory redundancies until then. So, it's clear that the sector still needs significant help if it is to succeed. First Minister, what additional support is the Welsh Government going to offer the steel sector in Wales in general, and the Port Talbot plant in particular?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

The £60 million package that we've already alluded to in this Chamber and outside. The UK Government have offered nothing. There's been no interest at all from the UK Government for the past two years. There was—when David Cameron was there, there was interest, and I acknowledge that. Since then, nothing. 

I do, however, welcome the deal. The unions have given it a welcome as well. I think we have to remember we have then the guarantee of no compulsory redundancies till 2026. We also have, of course, the promises in relation to blast furnace 5. Two years ago, things were very bleak indeed. There was a real question mark as to whether the heavy end of Port Talbot could continue in the future. The plant was up for sale. We've come a huge way since then. Part of that is because of the work that we've put in as a Government—the money we've put on the table, the talking that's taken place, the engagement that we've had with Tata. And in the two years since 2016, when things looked very difficult indeed, we now have—let's not pretend that things are out of the woods yet, but we now have our steel industry in a far stronger position than it was then.

Photo of Caroline Jones Caroline Jones UKIP 1:51, 3 July 2018

Thank you for that answer, First Minister. The UK Government does indeed have a lot more to do for this sector. There's a strategy to use 3 million tonnes of steel in the next five years on infrastructure projects like HS2, Hinkley C and the upgrading of the UK motorways, but this doesn't go far enough, because every single infrastructure project should be using UK steel, and every defence project should be using Welsh and UK steel. And every publicly funded and supported project should also be using UK steel. So, has your Government suggested this in your discussions with the UK Government? We can't afford to lose our steel industry because of the short-sightedness of Government policy. It is of strategic importance to our nation that we maintain steel production here in the UK, which means here in Wales. First Minister, is your Government considering other ways to support the sector in Wales, perhaps looking at a tidal lagoon at Port Talbot that will help to reduce energy costs for the plant?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:53, 3 July 2018

I think we have to be careful here, because the steel industry, like other industries, does depend on an export market. If we actually say to other countries, 'Only steel from Britain is allowed to be used in Britain', they'll say, 'Tough—you're not entering our markets either.' So, we have to be very careful about what we do. 

What we do need to do, of course, is to make sure that our procurement policy is as strong as it can be, as far as using Welsh steel is concerned. We also need to make sure, of course, that we support the industry to become stronger in terms of exporting. Certainly, a small but significant amount of steel is exported to the US, where the tariffs now have made it not so much difficult for Welsh steel, but more expensive for their buyers in the US. So, we've just got to be very careful here in saying that it's only steel from Britain used in British projects, as other countries will then take the same attitude, and we must be careful not to cut ourselves off from the export market. 

Photo of Caroline Jones Caroline Jones UKIP 1:54, 3 July 2018

Thank you, First Minister. While the steel industry is of national and strategic importance, we can't ignore the impact that it has on our environment. Living in the shadow of the Port Talbot plant, I see on a daily basis the effect the steelworks has on the environment, with huge plumes of acrid orange smoke released into the air that we breathe and thick layers of dust covering everything from our cars to our windows. So, it's little wonder that Port Talbot has been ranked as one of the most polluted towns in the UK. It is not as bad as it once was, because gone are the days of the acid rain. However, the impact on human health is still present and is still a threat. So, First Minister, what actions will your Government be taking to ensure that investment at the plant doesn't come at a cost to human lives? 

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

Well, I think, in fairness to Tata, they have certainly improved the situation in terms of emissions over many years, including looking, of course, at reusing the gas that is flared for energy in the plant. Inevitably, where there's a steelworks, that will have an effect on air quality, but the key is, of course, to make sure that that effect is minimised over the years.

Port Talbot also, of course, has a very congested stretch of motorway that is well below the standard that would be built these days, and it's a problem that's not easy to resolve, because it would take a significant amount of money to resolve the issue by looking purely at a road-based solution in Port Talbot. But we want to make sure that we work with Tata—and Tata have been doing this anyway over the years—so that the steelworks reduces its emissions, which it has done as the Member has recognised, and to continue that trend in the future.