Well, Llywydd, people vote for the individuals who are responsible here for the health service here in Wales. People are able to make different decisions if they don't think that that is being done successfully. Whenever did Capita put itself up for election? Whenever were people in north Wales, affected by the problems that Mark Isherwood pointed out, able to go to the ballot box to get rid of that company? That's the essential difference: that's why the comparison between private companies and public services is not a fair or relevant one.

I followed much of what Neil Hamilton said. His analysis, I thought, pointed to some very important issues. I draw a very different conclusion than he does from that analysis. He says that the problem with Capita and Carillion is that what we really need are more, and better, markets. My conclusion is much closer to Mick Antoniw's, that what Carillion and Capita demonstrate is the failure of the market model when it comes to delivering public services. They simply do not operate, and neither do those people who use them operate, in that economy-driven way.