3. Statement by the First Minister: The Legislative Programme

– in the Senedd at 2:42 pm on 17 July 2018.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 2:42, 17 July 2018

(Translated)

The next item is the statement by the First Minister on his Government's legislative programme. I call on the First Minister, Carwyn Jones. 

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

(Translated)

Presiding Officer, it is with pleasure that I can today announce the Bills that the Government will bring before the Assembly over the next 12 months. 

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

We know the year ahead will be one of the busiest in legislative terms since Wales gained primary law-making powers. As the UK prepares to leave the European Union, there will be a significant amount of work for this Assembly to undertake between now and March if we are to have a fully functioning statute book at the point of exit. This will be a challenging time and the legislative workload associated with leaving the EU should not be underestimated.

The Assembly will need to deal with a substantial programme of correcting regulations under the EU withdrawal Act between October and March. We will continue to keep under review the need for Brexit-related Bills over the coming 12 months, and it is likely that a number of UK Brexit Bills will require the consent of this Assembly. As far as possible, we must not allow this Brexit workload to limit our legislative ambitions, but we must be flexible and be ready to adapt our legislative programme should the need arise.

Llywydd, the Welsh Government has taken the lead in protecting children’s rights. We've enshrined the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child in the landmark Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011. We will continue to act to protect children and children’s rights and we will introduce a Bill to remove the defence of reasonable punishment. This legislation will support children’s rights by prohibiting the use of physical punishment. We have consulted widely and the responses from the public, parents and young people will help to shape our proposals.

Llywydd, this Government believes that Welsh law should be clear and accessible not just now, but in the long term. We have started a programme to consolidate and codify Welsh law but this will be a long journey. Achieving a clear, available and well-organised statute book will take many years, but we must ensure we make steady and enduring progress. We will therefore bring forward a Bill that commits the Government to improving the accessibility of Welsh law and making provision about how Welsh legislation is to be interpreted.

Llywydd, I announced last year that we would bring forward a local government Bill. This Bill will be introduced in the coming year and will include the reform of local authority electoral arrangements, including extending the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds. It will also include legislation related to the outcome of our recent local government Green Paper consultation. The Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services will make a detailed statement about this and the Bill later this afternoon.

Llywydd, this Government wants to ensure that quality is at the heart of our NHS. In the rare event that something goes wrong—and, unfortunately, in a system that relies on people working under intense pressure, occasionally things will go wrong—we want a health service that is open and transparent and able to learn from its mistakes. We will, therefore, bring forward legislation to establish a duty of quality for the NHS in Wales and a duty of candour for health and social care. A duty of candour would place statutory obligations on all health organisations in Wales to be open and transparent, and set out a process that must be followed when things go wrong and people suffer harm. This Bill will also establish a new independent body to represent the citizen's voice, ensuring people have a stronger voice that reflects their experiences of health and social care services. It will also include proposals to require NHS trust boards to appoint a vice-chair.

Finally, Llywydd, we will bring forward a Bill to ban the use of wild animals in travelling circuses. Animal welfare is a priority for this Government and the way we treat animals is an important reflection of our values as a society. Circuses are legitimate businesses, and it's not our intention to outlaw all forms of circus entertainment in Wales, but the use of wild animals in this context is outdated and ethically unacceptable. We'll prohibit their use in travelling circuses in Wales.

Llywydd, I delivered my first legislative statement as First Minister a little over eight years ago. This statement will be my last and I trust you'll allow me to reflect on what this Government has achieved in that time. Housing has been, and continues to be, a priority for the Welsh Government. We've taken measures to protect tenants and prevent homelessness. We've ended the right to buy in Wales. We've protected our stock of social and council housing. The Renting Homes (Fees etc.) (Wales) Bill, which is currently being scrutinised by the Assembly, will, if passed, ban letting agents from charging fees to tenants, removing barriers to entering and moving within the private rented sector.

We've undertaken major reforms of the social care system in Wales, we've legislated to drive up hygiene standards by making it compulsory for food businesses to display their scores on their doors, and the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 will reform how we plan and build infrastructure for walking and cycling in Wales. Wales has a long and proud tradition of radical action in public health, and this institution was the first in the UK to vote to ban smoking in public places and the first to ban smoking in cars when children are present. Llywydd, I’m proud of what we've achieved by working together in this Assembly to protect public health in Wales: improvements in the provision of public toilets, a licensing regime for tattooing and piercing, a ban on intimate piercing for under-18s, a ban on unstaffed sunbeds and a minimum unit price for alcohol.

Perhaps it was the Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013 that was truly groundbreaking and is saving lives. It’s another example of how Wales has led the way in the UK, changing the system of consent for organ donation to increase the number of organs available for transplantation. But this is not the only new ground we've broken. The Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015 is providing protection and support for victims, and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is driving public bodies, including Government, to plan and deliver in a sustainable way to improve the social, economic, environmental and cultural well-being of Wales.

Llywydd, where necessary, we've used our legislative powers to protect devolution. Through the Agricultural Sector (Wales) Act 2014, the Trade Union (Wales) Act 2017, and most recently the Law Derived from the European Union (Wales) Act 2018, this Government has ensured that when the interests of Wales are threatened by the actions of the UK Government, we've deployed the tools at our disposal to stand up for Wales. During my time as First Minister, our devolution settlement hasn't stood still. Using our legislative programme, we've delivered our new Welsh taxes—the first for almost 800 years—and the Welsh Revenue Authority.

Llywydd, there are many more Acts that I could mention, but it's clear how much has been achieved in that time. All the Acts I've mentioned may have been proposed and introduced by Government, but they've been shaped by stakeholders and improved by the scrutiny of this Assembly. We've always worked across this Chamber to ensure our legislation is the best it can be and to ensure it improves the lives of the people of Wales. We'll continue to do that on the Government Bills currently before the Assembly, and those I have announced today. This may be my last legislative statement, but a full legislative programme delivering on this Government’s commitments, including a Bill in relation to the Welsh language, will be announced next year. And so, Llywydd, I commend this legislative programme to the Assembly.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 2:49, 17 July 2018

Can I thank the First Minister for his statement this afternoon? We're nearly halfway through this Assembly and the Welsh Government has had sufficient time to introduce a legislative programme that enhances the lives of the people of Wales. But, sadly, the lack of ambition in the Welsh Government's legislative programme has shown that this simply isn't the case.

I'll start by asking a few questions around the Welsh Government's policy areas and legislative priorities before asking some further questions around the practicalities and processes of delivering legislation. Today's statement makes it clear that the workload associated with leaving the European Union should not be underestimated, and I agree. But perhaps the First Minister will indicate at this very early stage what his initial legislative priorities will be once Britain leaves the European Union.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 2:50, 17 July 2018

At the start of this Assembly, the Welsh Government talked about delivering public health legislation to improve the lives of people living in Wales, and I note from the statement that legislation will be forthcoming. The ongoing events at Betsi Cadwaladr university health board have shown that accountability is seriously failing in our health service and the First Minister is right to say that we need to see a health service that is open and transparent and able to learn from its mistakes. 

Llywydd, one of the bills proposed in my party's manifesto in 2016 was the NHS governance and finance Bill, which would increase accountability by requiring health commissioners and NHS chief executives to appear twice a year before local authority committees and annually before the National Assembly. The Government is considering legislation to introduce a new patients' watchdog, but we've already got a patients' watchdog in the form of community health councils, so perhaps the First Minister can tell us how this new body will operate alongside community health councils.

Our proposals also seek to establish directly elected health commissioners, which we believe would give communities a far greater say in local health decisions that impact upon them. This is something that would be greatly received in areas like my own constituency, which is facing unwanted and unnecessary changes to its services. Therefore, I'd be grateful if the First Minister could confirm whether the Welsh Government would seriously consider this legislative proposal as part of a wider movement to improve accountability in the Welsh NHS. 

Of course, accountability in the NHS is not the only health issue facing Wales. I'm sure the First Minister is aware of figures published by the Royal College of Physicians that show that as many as 1,300 people a year die prematurely in Wales from breathing polluted air. Public Health Wales has described air pollution as an urgent public health crisis, second only to smoking and more of a concern than obesity and alcohol. So, perhaps in his response the First Minister will confirm whether the Welsh Government will consider bringing forward any legislative action on this specific issue. 

Llywydd, the First Minister will no doubt be aware of the numerous legislative and regulatory commitments of the Welsh Government in the field of agriculture and animal welfare, so perhaps he could provide some clear timescales on when we're likely to see the introduction of a Welsh agriculture Bill, for example, given that it is not referred to in this statement today. This afternoon's statement confirms that the banning of wild animals in circuses will now finally be implemented and I'm pleased that that is the case. Indeed, the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs has made it clear that the Welsh Government is considering quite a few different legislative and regulatory avenues in her brief. Therefore, given those commitments, perhaps he could also provide more clarity on what Bills in her portfolio will actually be introduced in the fifth Assembly. 

Animal welfare is also a policy area where the Welsh Government has indicated support for UK Government legislation, notably around the Animal Welfare (Sentencing and Recognition of Sentience) Bill and around the UK Government's policy on banning third-party puppy sales. Perhaps he could provide a general assessment on how the Welsh Government works with Westminster on legislation that affects Wales and how those processes can be strengthened so that the implementation of those Bills is as streamlined as possible.

Today's statement confirms that yet another Bill will be brought forward to reduce the number of councils across Wales. I'm afraid the First Minister will have to forgive us for being sceptical when it comes to accepting the Welsh Government's assertion that it will reform local government in Wales, as it seems as though the same idea keeps being recycled and dropped every few years. I appreciate that the Cabinet Secretary will be bringing forward a statement with more information on this later this afternoon, but perhaps the First Minister can tell us once and for all whether he will now accept that the tired arguments for centralising local authorities against the will of the people have now been put to bed and whether he will now consider using the Welsh Government's legislative powers to look at other aspects of local government here in Wales.

I'm sure that the First Minister would argue that legislation passed by the Welsh Government in many cases places a financial burden on the Welsh budget and it's therefore essential that there is clarity on the outcomes expected from new legislation and on whether the costs laid out in the budget actually provide value for money. Perhaps the First Minister can tell us what mechanisms are in place to ensure that any outcomes as a result of Welsh Government legislation provide value for money for the taxpayer. The Finance Committee agreed to undertake an inquiry into the accuracy and reliability of estimated costs provided by the Welsh Government in the regulatory impact assessments accompanying legislation. Perhaps the First Minister could also give us an update on where the Welsh Government is in implementing the recommendations of that committee's report.

Finally, Llywydd, I'd like to briefly mention my proposed autism Bill, which will be introduced tomorrow afternoon. In the past, the First Minister has made it clear that no party has a monopoly on good ideas, so I sincerely hope that he'll be present for my statement tomorrow to hear the real benefits that implementing primary legislation will have for people living with autism in Wales. I therefore ask him again to reconsider his position on this Bill and to, at the very least, be open-minded to the prospect of implementing autism legislation.

In closing, Llywydd, I look forward to scrutinising the Welsh Government's legislative proposals for the remainder of this Assembly. We, as an opposition, will work openly and constructively with the Welsh Government where we believe it's doing the right thing. I hope that the Government will use its resources in the best possible way in order to produce legislation that will make a difference and will improve the lives of people here in Wales.

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 2:56, 17 July 2018

There were a number of questions there. First of all, the five Bills that we've put forward—they allow us some slack in order for us to be able to free up resource to deal with any Bills, or any other legislation, that will be needed as a result of Brexit. In terms of what the priorities will be, we don't know, because we have no idea what the UK Government wants. I was in Brussels yesterday, and the frustration that is felt there is quite simply this: what does the UK actually want? No-one knows. We knew on the weekend, then it all changed yesterday, and now we still have no idea what the position of the UK Government is. So, we are operating in the dark, in terms of what the final outcome of Brexit is going to be. We don't even know whether there'll be a UK Government by the end of the week, so there needs to be certainty there.

In terms of health, we have, of course, the quality and governance in health and care Bill that I've already mentioned. Transparency and duty of candour, I think, are really important, and they are particularly important so that people have faith that, where mistakes happen, they are then rectified. In terms of health commissioners, I think that the difficulty with having an elected person in a particular area is that they will focus solely on services that are provided to their own constituents. If you have a health commissioner who's elected for, say, ABMU, what is the guarantee that that health commissioner will take any interest at all in what's happening in Hywel Dda? This is the issue. So, there's a great danger that a health commissioner would simply look at what's happening in their own area because it would affect their own electors. So, we're unconvinced that health commissioners would make any real difference.

In terms of air quality, he's right, of course, to emphasise that air quality is important. We have our plans in place. We don't see that there's a need for legislative intervention at this stage. We have, of course, the south Wales metro. It's a great shame that his party didn't support electrification of the main line from Cardiff to Swansea, and a very great shame that his party didn't support—well, that's not fair, as there are those on his benches who supported the tidal lagoon, but his party in London did not support a project that would've created so many jobs and would have improved air quality because of the fact that it was renewable energy that was being created. That has not helped, in terms of making sure that air quality improves.

He asked about a Welsh agriculture Bill. We don't know what's in the UK agriculture Bill yet—we haven't seen it, and I don't suppose that anybody else has seen it in Whitehall. Apparently, it's going to be published in September. Until we've seen it, it's difficult to know exactly what legislative interventions we will need to make. What is not clear at the moment is what happens after 2021. What happens to agricultural subsidies? We've no guarantee that a single penny will come to Wales. Some £260 million of money comes every year to farmers, and not a penny has been guaranteed beyond the date that's already been publicly declared. We can't find that money. What we have said to the UK Government is, 'Put aside an equivalent sum of money and distribute it in exactly the same way as now, until there's agreement between the Governments to change the system if that's needed.' So far, there's been no answer. 

In terms of animal welfare, again, we will work with the UK Parliament where we need to. There have been occasions where we have piggybacked on UK legislation, and where that legislation is uncontroversial, there's no reason why we shouldn't do that in the future—where there is no proven need for there to be separate Welsh legislation and when, in fact, we're in agreement with what's happening across the border. That is something that is done fairly commonly in government.

He mentions the local government Bill. No decisions have been taken in terms of the structure of local government, but, I have to say, is he really saying that Pembrokeshire council has delivered consistently a good service to its citizens? Really? After what the chief executive was paid, after the car that he had, after the failures in education, he sits there and defends it. Come on. He can't do that as far as his constituents are concerned. Now, if he doesn't like what we're proposing, come up with your own ideas. I've heard nothing from the Conservative benches about local government reform. I've heard nothing from the Conservative benches about how we might improve local government—nothing at all. They're within their rights to oppose what we've put forward, but for goodness' sake, have some ideas, put them forward and let's see how those ideas will work.

But I'm flabbergasted that the temporary leader of the opposition thinks that in Pembrokeshire, and in several other authorities in Wales, people have somehow had a consistently good service over many years. Yes, things may have improved, but for goodness' sake, there was a time when it was very, very poor, and it's not the only local authority that has been in that position. I have no doubt there will be others in the future. That's why it's so important to get a grip on this now, and not just be oppositional without coming up with your own ideas. 

He makes the point about value for money. That's a fair point in the RIA system that we have. We always seek to ensure that there is value for money. It's always an open question as to whether legislation is good or not; that depends, I suppose, on your political perspective, and that is for the Assembly to scrutinise.

With regard to his autism Bill, he will, of course, get a full response tomorrow from the Cabinet Secretary.

Photo of Leanne Wood Leanne Wood Plaid Cymru 3:01, 17 July 2018

This is the First Minister's eighth and final statement on a future legislative programme, and we look forward to having a full debate on this question in the autumn. So, what do we have in this eighth statement? Well, council mergers are back on the agenda five years after the Williams commission first raised it. The seemingly ever-present question of reasonable chastisement rears its head again, and I'm looking forward, finally, to seeing some progress on this; and a limited expansion to the voting franchise for 16 and 17-year olds. Isn't this pretty much a rehash of a legislative programme that we've seen before? When our democracy, our nation and politics all over is in flux, we need ambition, values, vision and leadership, and I don't see those represented in today's statement.  

We can agree that Westminster is failing Wales, but this Parliament, the new home of Welsh democracy, was meant to give us the opportunity to do things differently. When they cancelled the plans for a tidal lagoon, don't you think that legislation should have been brought forward for a new nationalised Welsh energy company? We must take our future in our own hands, not allow Westminster to tie them behind our backs.

First Minister, our future generations face great challenges, and although your much-lauded future generations Act might look good on paper, where it matters in the real world, those pressures continue. Climate change is gathering pace. We are leaving an environment that is increasingly inhospitable. Air pollution kills tens of thousands every year, and plastic waste litters our coastline and countryside, but a clean air Act and a bottle return scheme are nowhere to be seen in this statement. Where are they? Where is the legislation to prepare our nation for the power of hydrogen and electric vehicles? Rather than action, instead you've chosen to attack Members on these benches for daring to ask these questions.   

Now, First Minister, I respect your aspiration to create a feminist Government. You've said you wanted to make Wales the safest place in the world to be a woman. What's not to like about that? Well, I can tell you that we are one hell of a long way from there. So, what legislation, what laws, what changes are you proposing to make this a reality? Again, this sounds more like a soundbite than anything of substance to me. Your unambitious childcare scheme that doesn't tackle inequality has been derided by the Minister charged with managing it, and it'll be forced through and you continue to refuse to call for the devolution of welfare administration—a key recommendation of your own rapid review on gender equality. We are nowhere near a feminist utopia, not even in ambition.

I hope the omission of detail on a Welsh language Bill indicates that the Welsh Government is pausing and thinking again. You know that the need is there. Under your current proposals, isn't it the case that private companies like Trago Mills would be absolved of their responsibility to respect and protect our language and our culture? When we have seen an unprecedented rise in anti-Welsh bigotry, this surely cannot be acceptable. 

Many key decisions have been kicked into the long grass: the size of our Parliament and those who can participate in our democracy for one, and there has been a serious lack of courage on this question and that has been disappointing. I know with a new First Minister there will inevitably be changes, but time does not wait for the internal processes of the Labour Party. Brexit looms and the world still turns. There is not a single piece of legislation planned for education, transport, energy, the environment, housing, social care, farming, fisheries, yet we have challenges in all of those areas, do we not?

First Minister, this is a legislative programme of old ideas and no ambition. It fails to address so many of the problems our people are facing. Wales needs and can do so much better than this. 

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 3:05, 17 July 2018

First of all, just to say that, once again, it's been suggested that council mergers are inevitably on the table; they are not. There will be a local government Bill; there's a working group that's been set up in order to look at improvements in public service delivery via local government. It's right on the voting franchise—we've put this forward because it hasn't happened yet, so it's important that when it comes to local government elections that that is part of that process.

I have to say, passing laws on things doesn't mean they happen. Resources are needed in order for things to happen. She says we need legislation to have a publicly owned energy company; it doesn't mean anything unless it's got money behind it. If there's money behind it, where's it coming from? In terms of where it's coming from, does that mean the money's on or off the books? None of these things have been actually explained in terms of how that would deliver for the people of Wales. I am with her when she condemns the Swansea bay tidal lagoon decision because that was our decision as well, but we can't let Westminster off the hook by claiming that there's a plan that would deliver £500 million of investment in the meantime, because it simply wouldn't do that.

In terms of future generations, I come back to the metro—not just the metro in south Wales, but the plans across the whole of Wales. We see a much, much better public transport system being developed across Wales both in terms of heavy rail lines, but light rail and in time buses as well. Those options, as they become more attractive to people, will mean that fewer and fewer people will use cars, fewer people will feel that they cannot cycle or walk to work and that's the way in which we can ensure that we see better air quality in the future. A law is not going to help that; it's changing people's behaviour that will help that in terms of offering them better alternatives to what they have now.

She's right to say that we're a long way from being the safest country in the world to be a woman. We've seen what's happened in the last few months and it's right to say that we have the violence against women and domestic abuse Act that is a proud part of what this Government has done, but there is a lot to do, there's no question about that, which is why we've had phase one of the review and why phase two will take place after my time in this office, because we do need to do more. The gender pay gap is one such area but there's more than that. To my mind, things have gone backwards in the short term in terms of the way women have been treated. We've all seen what's happened on social media and we've all seen the work that has to be done there. So, I entirely agree with her in terms of the fact that we need to do more in order to deliver on what she and I would want to see. 

In terms of the childcare scheme, she says it wouldn't deliver, but offers no evidence as to why it wouldn't deliver. This is a scheme that was voted for by the people of Wales. We were clear about what we would do with the childcare scheme and it will deliver for the people who voted for it and the people who need childcare for three to four-year-olds. Yes, of course it would be nice to be able to extend it, but the resources aren't there in order to do it. So, this is the furthest that we can go with the resources that we have available. 

She mentioned the Welsh language Bill. The reason why we are considering a new Bill is because the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011, which was taken forward by a Member of her own party, is not adequate and is not working for the people of Wales. So, we need to make sure that we improve the legislation—[Interruption.] We did vote for it, but it was Plaid Cymru votes as well, and so that's why we need to have a system that looks to encourage more people to use the language. Of course, we have our target for 2050, but there are aspects of the Measure that need to be strengthened, of that there is no doubt, and that is what we intend to do as a Government.

In terms of the way this place operates as an institution, that is not, respectfully, for me—that's a matter for the Llywydd and for all of us who are Members of this Chamber to work through what sort of structure we should have for this Chamber. There is great disagreement, not so much in terms of the numbers, but in terms of the electoral system and that will need to be worked through over the course of the next few months. There are very different views in this Chamber as to, firstly, whether there should be 80 Members, and secondly, if there are, how they will be elected, and that cannot be resolved quickly. That will need some time to be resolved.

Then, in terms of the other issues that she has raised, I did notice that, unlike, I have to say, the leader of the Conservatives, she didn't put forward any legislative ideas. Now, if Plaid have ideas, let's hear them and let's understand what their legislative programme might look like. Let's see what ideas they have for Bills, and then of course we can see whether those Bills would be practical and, indeed, supportable as far as the Government is concerned. We have put forward our legislative programme, and that is something that we will take forward, of course, over the next year. 

Photo of Caroline Jones Caroline Jones UKIP 3:10, 17 July 2018

Thank you for your statement, First Minister. And while I welcome some of the measures outlined in your legislative programme, it’s not as ambitious, I feel, as it should be.

We're almost halfway through this Assembly and we have eight Acts on the statute books and, apart from the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017 and the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018, the majority of the legislation focuses on taxation. The Welsh public, I feel, expect the Welsh Government to introduce legislation to make an improvement to their lives, to make their lives better, and I do not see sufficient evidence of this improvement. 

I welcome the plans for an independent voice for Welsh patients, provided it is truly an independent voice, the true voice of patients. I look forward to scrutinising that Bill in detail, and I would be grateful if you could outline how it will differ from the community health councils. First Minister, what role will this new body have in tackling clinical negligence, ensuring local health boards are meeting their obligations and ensuring local authorities are complying with the social services Act?

The plans to establish duties of quality and candour in health and social care are also most welcome. These will ensure that all working in the health and social care field are held to the same professional standards as our doctors and nurses. First Minister, can you outline the discussions your Government has had with the various royal colleges and professional bodies about how the new duties tie in with their various codes?

I welcome plans to reform local government, because I feel it’s ridiculous that we have 22 different local authorities for such a relatively small population. However, we have been here before and nothing happened. So, First Minister, does your Government actually have the will to see it through to fruition this time?

I remain unconvinced about lowering the voting age, but I see the wisdom of taking it forward at the same time as you reform local government. First Minister, will the Bill also seek to make other changes to the franchise? Will long-term residents be eligible to vote?

I welcome the intention to introduce legislation to ban the use of wild animals in travelling circuses; this is long overdue. However, what are we doing about puppy farms or tackling those who abuse companion animals? First Minister, what consideration have you given to expanding this legislation to cover wider animal welfare issues?

Regarding the plans to introduce a ban on smacking, do we have the right to tell parents how to discipline their children? First Minister, as the results of the consultation on the legislative proposal have yet to be published, can you let us know what convinced you of the need to introduce the legislation now?

The violence against women and domestic abuse Act is proving to be very supportive, but we still have a long way to go to provide sufficient places of refuge in this area. 

Air pollution, as Paul Davies has mentioned, is of major concern. I ask, when we ask people to take responsibility for their health, how we can factor this issue into the equation to improve air quality for all.

First Minister, your programme for government promised action to tackle mental health discrimination. Where is the legislation, please, to back this up? And as we continue to encourage people to take responsibility for their health and well-being, the planning of infrastructure is important, and I'm pleased to see that this has been mentioned. I look forward to an update in this area and the progress, and I will be watching this progression with great interest.

You promised to amend the Welsh language Measure so that businesses can invest in promoting the Welsh language, and you promised to look at ending land banking, improve animal welfare, combat cyber crime, tackle fast food advertising near schools, and make Wales a dementia-friendly nation. You promised a lot that has yet to be delivered. So, when can we expect a more ambitious legislative programme for Wales? Thank you. 

(Translated)

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 3:15, 17 July 2018

I think the first thing it's important to remember is that not everything can be resolved by primary legislation. There are issues there that she's identified that are important but don't actually need Bills in order for them to be taken forward. Some of them need resourcing; some of them would need secondary legislation. It's not necessarily the case that there needs to be a Bill. In terms of the quality and governance in health and care Bill, well, just to remind Members again that the statutory duty of quality will build on current requirements on Welsh Ministers and the NHS and it'll ensure that future decisions about healthcare services lead to continuous improvement and improved outcomes and then, of course, the duty of candour will lead to openness, learning and improvement across the health and social care sector.

She asked about the consultation: I can say that the consultation took place between June and September of last year. The feedback from that consultation has centred heavily on the citizens' voice proposals and, of course, the Cabinet Secretary made a statement on 21 February outlining responses to the consultation on the White Paper and how we were going to take things forward.

With regard to the local government Bill, it was interesting what she said about reducing the number of local authorities. That's a matter, of course, for her, but, in terms of what the local government Bill will include, it will at least include provisions for the voluntary merger of principal local authorities. It will include issues such as, as already mentioned, reduced voting age in local authority elections and eligibility—so, just for example, looking at residence—a general power of competence for principal local authorities and eligible community councils; increasing public participation in local democracy; it'll look at the duties and conduct of Members; a new system for improving governance based on self-assessment and peer review; a power to issue guidance on workforce matters; strengthening controls on non-domestic rates avoidance; public services ombudsman investigations of code of conduct complaints; and increased flexibility for public services boards to merge or de-merge. That is the bare bones of the local government Bill.

In terms of animal welfare, there is a code of practice—or codes of practice—that are in place that deal with the issue of puppy farming, to use the phrase. There are legal requirements on breeders as well.

In terms of reasonable chastisement, well, it is the case that we control the way parents are able to chastise their children, otherwise we would allow them to do what they wanted, and that's never been—. That's not been the case for many, many years. The objective of the Bill is not to prosecute people needlessly, but to look at diversion if there is a first incident and then only look at prosecution if there are subsequent incidents. So, it's certainly not the intention to see a spate of prosecutions where there is a first instance. That will need to work through working with the police and the Crown Prosecution Service in terms of who is charged, in terms of what the charging guidelines look like that are publicly published by the CPS, and that work is in hand. I think it's another step that people will see as being important in terms of getting the balance right between chastisement and protection of children. I was in this Chamber, as were many others, before the smoking ban came in and there were many who opposed that, and now it's accepted. Nobody—. Well, very few people argue with the smoking ban and the fact that it is in place.

On mental health services, we continue to—. We've demonstrated, of course, our commitment to mental health services with the extra money that we have put into that. As I say, coming back to the points you made on infrastructure, well, again, that doesn't need legislation; that's something that we'll look at in terms of the Wales infrastructure investment plan, for example, which gives us the plan in terms of investment in the future.

And, as far as the Welsh language Measure is concerned, of course, what we aim to do is to strengthen the legislative protection and rights available to Welsh speakers.

Photo of Julie Morgan Julie Morgan Labour 3:19, 17 July 2018

I welcome the programme for government, and I particularly welcome some items in the programme for government that I do think are ambitious, and I am particularly pleased that there will be the introduction of the legislation to end the defence of reasonable punishment. As the First Minister knows, this is something that I have campaigned for for many years. I actually first spoke publicly on it in the House of Commons in the year 2000. So, I'm repeatedly reminded that politics is a long game. In any case, I'm very pleased that it has finally reached this point, and, if passed, Wales will join the growing list of countries that are removing this defence. And there has been no evidence in those countries that there has been any increased criminalisation of parents. It seems a very normal, practical step to take and I think, after this has been done and we have the, no doubt, spirited debate, we'll all wonder what all the fuss was about afterwards.

I'm sure that the First Minister is aware of the latest research commissioned by the Welsh Government, which shows that public attitudes in Wales are changing about how parents do punish their children. The majority now do support legislative action. The number of parents who do actually smack their children is falling rapidly, so I do think that public opinion is changing and I do think that the debate we've had over many years here in this Chamber and outside has helped towards this change of view. So, I think the fact that we're having this legislation is ambitious and I think that it does show that the Welsh Government is putting foremost the protection of children, so this is one aspect of legislation that I really welcome very strongly.

The other one is the fact that 16 and 17-year-olds will get the vote in local government, if passed by this Chamber, which, again, is a campaign that many of us have been involved with for many years. So, it's great to see that coming to fruition. I'm sorry it's just in local government at this point and I do hope that we'll be able to have it for Assembly elections, and eventually in Westminster, but extending the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds, respecting their opinions and getting them to take a role in their future, I think is a very positive step and I think is in line with what this Labour-led Welsh Government has always done in terms of putting children at the front of all of our policies. So, those are the two issues that I'd like to particularly welcome and really believe that we will be able to, I hope, deliver those two particular bits of law.

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 3:22, 17 July 2018

Can I thank the Member for her comments? She will remember the discussions that she and I and Christine Chapman had in my room upstairs. They were always discussions that led to agreement, and she will see what we deliver in terms of moving this forward now. Of course, it's about, as well, providing support for parents through a package of measures, including advice on parenting techniques. As she has said—and others—the intention is not to look to criminalise people as something that is the first intention, but to provide that support and to make sure that the message is understood by people. We know from practice in other countries that that's the way it has been done.

Of course, what she says about 16 and 17-year-olds is correct. If it was correct that 16 and 17-year-olds were able to vote in the Scottish referendum in 2014, there is no reason why they should not be able to vote across the UK in other elections as well. There's no logical reason why one shouldn't follow the other. And that's why, of course, as far as local government is concerned, we will take forward votes for 16 and 17-year-olds in local government elections, and, of course, in time, there will be a Bill before the Assembly looking at the Assembly's own franchise. She will know that, personally, I've been in favour of 16 and 17-year-olds voting, but she has a much more venerable record on that.

Photo of Suzy Davies Suzy Davies Conservative 3:24, 17 July 2018

Perhaps I could start with the smacking ban as well, if I may. Obviously, we recognise your policy objective on this, but there is still this problem in as much as the current defence is a construct of the criminal law and removing the defence doesn't remove the actual offence that remains from the realm of criminal law either. So, whether there's a prosecution or not—and I know this is not your intention—it does still leave parents at the risk of technical criminalisation. So, how do you expect to work with the UK Government to overcome this rather inconvenient truth, from your perspective, that non-injurious battery still remains a crime?

We agree that the UNCRC is important, so I'd be curious to know where is your Bill to ensure that the UNCRC, children's rights and the due regard are observed at all levels of public service. It's fine that we here make policy and legislation having taken due regard of children's rights, but if the implementation of those policies and the interpretation of them are not also subject to that due regard then there's no guarantee that public services will deliver in the way that we are intending. I apply this question as well to older people's rights. You mentioned that—well, I think it was Paul Davies who mentioned, actually—you don't have the monopoly on all the great ideas. Well, why not include these two ideas, these two great Welsh Conservative ideas, in your future legislative programme while you still have the chance? You've done it with wild animals in circuses, so you can see we've got some good things to say, and, at the same time, perhaps you could look at our ideas for localism and citizenship, which could also be delivered through a Bill.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I just wanted to talk about the quality of legislation that's likely to come forward. We've still got a huge emphasis here on framework Bills, sometimes based on incomplete evidence, and I cite the Public Health (Minimum Price for Alcohol) (Wales) Bill in support of that argument. But there's definitely an emphasis on too much secondary legislation, with less than optimum scope for scrutiny with such a small Parliament, of course. I think it's one of the legacies of the contact with the Napoleonic code, which has never really been a good fit with our common law system here in the UK. It's resulted in a lot of gold-plating here. So, do you see the form of Welsh Government legislation perhaps changing over time as we leave the European Union, with more detail on the face of draft Bills, where they, of course, face the full glare of our scrutiny? Thank you.

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 3:26, 17 July 2018

I never thought I'd hear the code of Napoleon mentioned in the Chamber, but she'll be aware, of course, that the civil law systems that the continental countries have are reflected in Scotland as well. So, it's not the case that all of the UK is somehow different from the legal systems that exist elsewhere. The balance that's struck between primary and secondary legislation is primarily one of flexibility, because where there is a need, perhaps on an annual basis, or less frequently, to update legislation, then clearly secondary legislation is the vehicle for doing that. That's why, of course, quite often there are issues that won't appear on the face of a Bill, because that Bill may need to be amended in a year or so or beyond that, and so the flexibility of secondary legislation is needed.

One of the issues that has taxed us is—ironically—as we look at finance Bills in the future and Bills that will contain rates of taxation—. It's the custom, I understand, in Westminster for rates of taxation to be presented on the face of primary legislation, but they have a particular system of Standing Orders to deal with that, which we will need to develop, potentially, in the future if that is to be the case—if we have finance Bills presented to the Assembly in the future.

In terms of reasonable chastisement, of course, by removing the defence, it means not that a new offence is created but that a defence is removed to an existing offence. She wasn't arguing, I trust, for the offence of common assault to be removed from the Criminal Justice Act 1988, but, nevertheless, what it will mean is that where, in court, people plead the defence of reasonable chastisement, that defence will no longer be available to them. Could that lead to more prosecutions? It could. But that's why it's hugely important that we focus on diversion, that we focus on ensuring that there are no prosecutions for first offences, for example, and that prosecution is something that is held to be something in extremis. Now, the police and the Crown Prosecution Service are engaged on this, they're working with us to see how that would work, and the CPS, of course, will want to lay down charging guidelines in order for there to be a full understanding, publicly, of how the law will operate. Simply creating or removing a defence will not, in itself, lead to more prosecutions, as long as the situation is handled sensibly.

In terms of the quality of legislation, I actually think it's been quite remarkable. This institution has only had primary powers since 2011. We had no history at all of drafting legislation, unlike the Scottish Office, which did. We had, of course, the days of legislative competence Orders and the days of Measures, which I suppose gave us a bit of practice, but it's quite remarkable that we have been able to produce so much legislation collectively in this Chamber despite having no pedigree at all and no expertise at all until quite recently. The fact that that legislation has been judged to be sound—we've not seen major challenges to that legislation—I think is a tribute to all those who've been involved in drafting that legislation and the quality of people that we have—there are not many of them compared to other Governments, but the quality of people that we have. So, we're content with the legislation as it is presented. We believe that the Bills that I've gone through today will give us full candour, for example, in the health service, will give us the progress we need to see in local government, and, of course, will enable us to move forward with a long-held commitment towards removing the distance of reasonable chastisement.

Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 3:29, 17 July 2018

First Minister, I've just three relatively succinct points. In respect of 16 to 17-year-olds voting, I wonder if you could perhaps elaborate on your views as to how that legislation might be framed, particularly since it has a significant impact on how the education curriculum operates, and the issues that exist, for example, around schools within their curriculum talking about political issues, talking about trade unions and bodies such as that within society, which are clearly important to facilitate 16 and 17-year olds in exercising that power if the legislation actually proceeds and is passed. I did some consultations with two schools in my constituency—Bryn Celynnog and Y Pant—and what was clear was that the overwhelming majority of pupils clearly wanted the vote at 16 and 17, provided they had the information that enabled them to use that. Without that, it was down to something like 50 per cent of pupils actually wanting that. So, it seems to me that's a fundamental part of the legislation in addressing that particular deficit.

Whilst I welcome the Renting Homes (Fees etc.) (Wales) Bill, you'll be aware that also in this Chamber there was a unanimous vote in support of legislation to abolish leasehold tenure. I'm aware of the very positive statements that have been made by the Minister in this respect. It seems to me that this is a simple piece of legislation, and I'm just wondering if you could at least confirm it hasn't been ruled out at this stage, and is still a particular option.

Thirdly, on the issue of inequality, you'll be aware that the Equality Act 2010, section 1, specifically imposes duties on public authorities to take action on major decisions, to actually reduce inequality of outcome. Now, the Tories specifically prevented the implementation of section 1 of that Act, but of course under section 45 of the Wales Act 2017, that power to trigger section 1, and to implement it, now lies with this Assembly. It seems to me that, without the burden of torturous processes around legislation and so on, a simple step could be taken by an Order of the Welsh Ministers to actually implement section 1 of the Equality Act 2010.

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 3:32, 17 July 2018

With regard to 16 and 17-year-olds, I think there's a duty on political parties—perhaps not the most objective of sources—to provide information to voters, for them to decide how they should vote. I think the issue of constitutional education doesn't end at 17; it's there for people at all ages. They don't properly understand, quite often, the way that Government works, and why should they? It's not part of their everyday lives. So, I think, yes, we can look at the curriculum, but there is an obligation, I think, on us as politicians as well to engage with not just those 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds, but all ages.

In terms of leasehold tenure, if you ask, 'Is it ruled out?', the answer is, 'No, it's not ruled out.' It's not, obviously, in this year's legislative programme, but nevertheless it is an issue that's still live as far as the Government is concerned.

In terms of the equality Act, let me write to him on that, in terms of what we would need to do in order to implement section 1, and what the effects would be. I will write to him to provide him with an update on that issue.

Photo of Ann Jones Ann Jones Labour

And finally, Simon Thomas. 

Photo of Mr Simon Thomas Mr Simon Thomas Plaid Cymru 3:33, 17 July 2018

(Translated)

First Minister, when you look at the Record, I’m sure you will find that there were six legislative proposals made by the Plaid Cymru leader in her response to your proposals, and all six of them are exciting and radical ideas for Wales. I’d like to add another three.

First of all, the leader of the house told me, as we discussed the Bill that became the Law Derived from the European Union (Wales) Act 2018, that your Government would take the first opportunity to introduce environmental principles into Welsh legislation. You did that in rejecting Plaid Cymru proposals to write those principles on the face of Welsh legislation. And since then, of course, the House of Lords, in the EU withdrawal Bill, has written those principles into law. So, there is something missing here that isn’t in Welsh legislation, but is in England-and-Wales legislation, but for England only, as you said. So, when will we see those environmental principles written into Welsh primary law?

Secondly, your Cabinet Secretary for rural affairs is consulting on very broad issues at the moment in terms of funding rural areas as we exit the European Union. It appears to me that some of those proposals do require a Bill in relation to agriculture, and therefore when will we have an opportunity to discuss legislating for that purpose? I assume it won’t be over the next year.

And finally, your Cabinet Secretary for Finance has expressed his intention to proceed with a vacant land tax as one of the taxes where we can use our new power. Now, I assume that we will need legislation to institute any taxation and that you wouldn’t be using framework legislation to do that. So, when will we see this tax? Are we to assume, therefore, that the vacant land tax won’t realistically be delivered over the next year or two?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 3:35, 17 July 2018

(Translated)

Well, there is a difference between us and England, because we do have the well-being of future generations Act, which, of course, much more broadly includes environmental principles. But there’s no reason why we can’t consider that during the next few months, because one of the things that isn’t obvious is which Bills will be required.

Will we need an agricultural Bill? Well, my answer to that is, ‘We may need one.' But at the moment, it's difficult to say what that Bill would include. That’s why, of course, there has been space created in the legislative programme to ensure that there is room to develop Brexit Bills. Instead of us announcing six or seven Bills this afternoon, there is scope for the legislative team, and the Bill teams, to develop Bills when they need to be made. So, the capacity is there to do that, as I said at the outset of the process.

In terms of the vacant land tax, it’s not something that is in this year’s programme, but it’s evidently something that the Minister is considering now. Of course, there will be more to be said on that again at a later stage.

Photo of Ann Jones Ann Jones Labour 3:36, 17 July 2018

Thank you very much, First Minister.