4. What discussions has the First Minister had with the Children’s Commissioner for Wales with regard to legislation to promote the rights of children and young people? OAQ52673

Children’s rights are already enshrined in Welsh law. Ministers have a legal duty to have due regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child when exercising any of their functions. All Ministers meet regularly with the children’s commissioner. Indeed, I am meeting with the commissioner next week to discuss her latest annual report.

Thank you, First Minister. You will be aware that, last week, we welcomed to the National Assembly Bruce Adamson, the children's commissioner for Scotland, who gave the first annual commemorative lecture in memory of your predecessor, Rhodri Morgan. Speaking about the Welsh legislation, Mr Adamson said this:

'There is so much that I like. I like the proactive approach to compliance, I think it gives stakeholders the opportunity to influence how children's rights are embedded in legislation and through policy making. But it is not full incorporation.'

In your meeting with the children's commissioner next week, First Minister, will you undertake to discuss with her if we may need to take further steps to fully incorporate the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, whether that be through an amendment to the existing Measure or, if necessary, to a more far-reaching, fully comprehensive incorporation? The issue, I think, is around, First Minister, the ability for the individual child to ensure that their rights are complied with and to have redress. So, I would be very grateful, First Minister, if you would discuss this with our children's commissioner and see if she feels there are further steps that should be taken.

Yes, I can give that assurance. We always look to learn from others, but there are sometimes unexpected consequences with full incorporation in areas where some legal problems can be created. That has to be balanced, of course, against the rights of the child and the convention itself, but I will discuss it—I'm sure she'll discuss it with me—in the course of this week to see if there's anything more that we can do to build on the commitment and the action we've already taken.

On a similar point, actually, in the report on the Measure's section 1 compliance, Welsh Government stated that as a next step its intention is to:

'review our strategy to support and highlight the importance of participation by children and young people in decisions which affect them.'

I've raised before, similarly to Helen Mary, this disconnect between the Government policy and Assembly legislation, which should be made with due regard to article 12 amongst others, and the ability for public bodies that deliver that policy or legislation to observe or ignore article 12 as it suits them, which means that policy or legislative intentions can sometimes be diluted or fail altogether. Obviously, we know about some instances of voluntary observance, but they're the exception rather than the rule. Supporting and highlighting are all very well, but where expectation fails, legislation can step in. Do you think we might have reached that point now?

I've not seen evidence of it, but I'm open, of course, to any evidence that the commissioner would want to produce in the course of this week to see whether there is evidence of a need to strengthen the commitment that we've already made, and I look forward to that conversation.